Any Scrimmage news?

[Westy03]

This is pure foolishness.

Ever been around these type guys?

They play pick up games with different intensity, some always go 100%, it is in their DNA.

Others, who might actually be smarter, just work on weaknesses, moves, etc.

So a player knows he can take it to the hoop but choses to work on some outside moves, mid range jump shot; an amateur observer might think he is soft, whatever, might not be true.

Some crash the boards, others do not.

Some play hard "D", some do not.

Inconclusive, premature to post this stuff: a shot in the dark.

Well no ###### Sherlock. Just thought I would give some brief observations. We havent talked about Mizzou in a while maybe I will start a thread about them

[slufanskip]

Well no ###### Sherlock. Just thought I would give some brief observations. We havent talked about Mizzou in a while maybe I will start a thread about them

Come on Westy.

Never been around a Kiwi, 2 Aussie's and a Jett before.

Easier shoot in dark

DNA, of course different

Smarter work harder on shooting, drive, etc.

Foolishness from thinking you can see something

[billikenfan05]

This is pure foolishness.

Ever been around these type guys?

They play pick up games with different intensity, some always go 100%, it is in their DNA.

Others, who might actually be smarter, just work on weaknesses, moves, etc.

So a player knows he can take it to the hoop but choses to work on some outside moves, mid range jump shot; an amateur observer might think he is soft, whatever, might not be true.

Some crash the boards, others do not.

Some play hard "D", some do not.

Inconclusive, premature to post this stuff: a shot in the dark.

Absolutely no reason to jump down Westy's throat.

[kshoe]

Absolutely no reason to jump down Westy's throat.

Thankfully Westy has been around long enough to consider the source.

Reports from practice are never "the final authority" and anyone that has been on this board knows to take them with a grain of salt. Still, I'd rather read Westy's report and decide for myself than have no report at all.

[Billikan]

Absolutely no reason to jump down Westy's throat.

I agree. Dr B and Westy were merely giving their observations of what they have seen. As a person who watched pick up and practice for decades I can say that it is almost impossible to say how good a player will be in games from watching them in the pick up setting. You can see some of their skills and athleticism but if they are playing for a good coach--and we have an excellent one here at SLU--then the pick up games are good for conditioning and releasing energy and developing some friendships--but little more. The real evaluation can come after about a month of serious practice and even then the frosh will be lost at times. Our transfer will be ahead in his development because he played big minutes for a full year of D1 ball. Our frosh from last years team will now be sophs and they will be way ahead of the frosh in understanding our defense, our offense and the toughness required in our league. In fact, our league was rated as the 6th best in the country and in terms of toughness it is definitely a top tier league with Temple, X, Dayton, and Richmond and our Bills leading the way. In terms of our returning players, I expect all to be better and I hope that CS, CE and CR will all be much improved in terms of where they started at the beginning of the year last year. Cody should be stronger and in better shape which will help his rebounding and long range shooting. The key to us being really good this year will be the development of MM and Loe. If they get bigger, stronger and play tough enough to give us solid minutes by mid Feb then we will have the depth necessary to compete for a high position in the conference and a post season bid. If not, then we might be one year away.

[davidnark]

I have not personally seen the guys scrimmage yet this year, but I was told by a very good source that Brian Conklin is finally healthy and vastly improved, with significantly better explosion and jumping (and that he is even dunking on people). I also heard that Loe is going to be good from the start, even though he will obviously acclimate for some time. I was also told that Jordair Jett can jump out of the gym, which was a surprise to me based upon what I head read about him when we signed him. Finally, I was told that CR has really improved and that there should not be a drop-off in ability when McCall plays for Mitchell.

[Westy03]

I agree. Dr B and Westy were merely giving their observations of what they have seen. As a person who watched pick up and practice for decades I can say that it is almost impossible to say how good a player will be in games from watching them in the pick up setting. You can see some of their skills and athleticism but if they are playing for a good coach--and we have an excellent one here at SLU--then the pick up games are good for conditioning and releasing energy and developing some friendships--but little more. The real evaluation can come after about a month of serious practice and even then the frosh will be lost at times. Our transfer will be ahead in his development because he played big minutes for a full year of D1 ball. Our frosh from last years team will now be sophs and they will be way ahead of the frosh in understanding our defense, our offense and the toughness required in our league. In fact, our league was rated as the 6th best in the country and in terms of toughness it is definitely a top tier league with Temple, X, Dayton, and Richmond and our Bills leading the way. In terms of our returning players, I expect all to be better and I hope that CS, CE and CR will all be much improved in terms of where they started at the beginning of the year last year. Cody should be stronger and in better shape which will help his rebounding and long range shooting. The key to us being really good this year will be the development of MM and Loe. If they get bigger, stronger and play tough enough to give us solid minutes by mid Feb then we will have the depth necessary to compete for a high position in the conference and a post season bid. If not, then we might be one year away.

Well said and I agree about MM and Loe

[bsheldon]

excellent post Billikan.

Same for you shoe.

I appreciate the comments on what people have seen at the pick-up games.

Thanks for sharing Westy and Doc.

Sure, it may not be the caliber of a report that would come from an NBA scout watching the NCAA Final Four game--because obviosuly some guys give more effort than others, but you can still ususally tell who has the goods and who doesn't. Plus just looking at the frames of some of the guys is helpful--especially guys who started their careers real thin or a bit plump. Again, most guys don't go 100% in these games but I bet there are some times when some brilliance shines through. I used to love to watch H, Highmark, Claggett and company go at it at the rec. You can tell who has talent to a certain extent.

[BACKHANDtheRICAN]

Havent seen any scrimmages but this is what I have heard from a few people:

Mitchell- Best player on the team

Westy...i mean Einstein-

Thanks for the inside information on Mitchell. He sounds like he might be good.

[bsheldon]

I have not personally seen the guys scrimmage yet this year, but I was told by a very good source that Brian Conklin is finally healthy and vastly improved, with significantly better explosion and jumping (and that he is even dunking on people). I also heard that Loe is going to be good from the start, even though he will obviously acclimate for some time. I was also told that Jordair Jett can jump out of the gym, which was a surprise to me based upon what I head read about him when we signed him. Finally, I was told that CR has really improved and that there should not be a drop-off in ability when McCall plays for Mitchell.

Good news davidnark.

A healthy BC is a very good thing.

McCall is supposed to be the real deal. He played at a very high level last year--hopefully he lives up to expectations and can contribute right away. That is a bold statement that we will not see any drop-off when KM sits--I hope it is true. If it is, we will be a real, real good basketball team.

The new and apparently improved JJ seems like someone who can come in and give the rest of our guards some competition for playing time. He will hopefully be a guy we can count on for several minutes a game to give some of the others guys some rest. I really hope that both MM and JJ contribute mightily right away. This will allow KM to not have to play 30+ minutes every single game. We definitely need KM to be 100% come conference time and post-season. These two should help keep him sharp in practices and give him some rest during the games.

I have been surprised how Loe has been written off for this year--or at least not really expected to contribute much this season. There was so much talk about him several months ago when we were all hoping and praying that he would become a Billiken. There was a lot of talk about how much he can help the team and be a starter almost from day one. Now it seems just the opposite. It seems someone said he was thin and didn't look that strong or something and now it appears he will not help the club much if any this year. Strange. I am expecting big things from him this season. He may not dominate the boards, or even block many shots on D, but simply being 6'11" down low can't be a bad thing for us and if he truly can shoot like advertised and proven in last year's U19 tourney (something like 45% from 3) he can really help us spread out the D of opposing teams.

Again, awesome news about CR hitting the weight room.

[DoctorB]

you know -- and all due respect -- I've heard that comment about MM and no drop off, etc. sorry but if he has to guard someone there's a drop off. believe me.

MM needs to lift and fill out cause right now he's pretty tiny. much smaller than I expected. it may get toasty with him guarding many of the A10 guards.

I really hope I'm wrong about MM -- he'll be like KW maybe in 2 years, but no drop off now? c'mon...

ps believe me you can tell a lot by watching pick up games. granted it's not practice but demeanor and guts and character all add up. One of the very best pick up guys I ever saw at SLU was Kevin--what a tiger; anyone could watch those games and tell who was the real deal. it's not that hard to see basic stuff guys ...not when you've been around gyms for the better part of your life, it seems... Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule -- right?

[doowop]

This is pure foolishness.

Ever been around these type guys?

They play pick up games with different intensity, some always go 100%, it is in their DNA.

Others, who might actually be smarter, just work on weaknesses, moves, etc.

So a player knows he can take it to the hoop but choses to work on some outside moves, mid range jump shot; an amateur observer might think he is soft, whatever, might not be true.

Some crash the boards, others do not.

Some play hard "D", some do not.

Inconclusive, premature to post this stuff: a shot in the dark.

All he did was report HIS observations. What was wrong with that? It's not foolishness.

[Billikan]

you know -- and all due respect -- I've heard that comment about MM and no drop off, etc. sorry but if he has to guard someone there's a drop off. believe me.

MM needs to lift and fill out cause right now he's pretty tiny. much smaller than I expected. it may get toasty with him guarding many of the A10 guards.

I really hope I'm wrong about MM -- he'll be like KW maybe in 2 years, but no drop off now? c'mon...

ps believe me you can tell a lot by watching pick up games. granted it's not practice but demeanor and guts and character all add up. One of the very best pick up guys I ever saw at SLU was Kevin--what a tiger; anyone could watch those games and tell who was the real deal. it's not that hard to see basic stuff guys ...not when you've been around gyms for the better part of your life, it seems... Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule -- right?

With all due respect--some players, particularly the "gym rat" type of players, seem to always shine in pick up ball. But my view is that you cannot make legitimate evaluations of how a player will do in games until they have had the teaching of coaches and the reps in practice. It will also make a difference for the younger players as they hit the weights and get stronger but that takes time. It is unfair to the individual players to judge them this early in their career based upon pick up games.

[billiken_roy]

i've always felt pickup game views are very ineffectual. first off, no coaches. executing a coaches orders are huge and a lot of players might be much better on the playground than the real games.

second, the bigs are typically ignored or at least minimized in pickup. guards have the ball and tend to run more and take the shots instead of working to the bigs.

while i appreciate the views and they indeed give us something to talk about, i wont put much weight on them at this time.

[jimbofive]

i would really appreciate it if everyone would not say anything about our players until after we've played our first regular season game. i don't want to hear anything after the exhibition games, either. if they don't play exactly like they're going to play in the real games, then just keep it to yourself. jeez.

that being said, i will continue and say this: i've heard that on the heels of last year's championship game, a lot of our players are practicing their half court shots right before they leave the gym. sometimes they shoot them sitting down or facing away from the basket or even with their eyes closed. just working on weaknesses in case we need that big shot from them in a real game. i'm also hearing that everyone on the team is pretty terrible at making those shots, so i hope that's something that they're working on in practice soon.

[MB73]

All he did was report HIS observations. What was wrong with that? It's not foolishness.

He said one looked slow, one could not shoot, which are both unfair for reasons I stated.

He said one no longer looked like a scared school girl, which is not fair to the kid.

Maybe his intentions were good.

But tell me how I am wrong.

[MB73]

Come on Westy.

Never been around a Kiwi, 2 Aussie's and a Jett before.

Easier shoot in dark

DNA, of course different

Smarter work harder on shooting, drive, etc.

Foolishness from thinking you can see something

Stick to soccer. I am sure there is a 0-0 thriller going on somewhere.

[billikenfan05]

i would really appreciate it if everyone would not say anything about our players until after we've played our first regular season game. i don't want to hear anything after the exhibition games, either. if they don't play exactly like they're going to play in the real games, then just keep it to yourself. jeez.

that being said, i will continue and say this: i've heard that on the heels of last year's championship game, a lot of our players are practicing their half court shots right before they leave the gym. sometimes they shoot them sitting down or facing away from the basket or even with their eyes closed. just working on weaknesses in case we need that big shot from them in a real game. i'm also hearing that everyone on the team is pretty terrible at making those shots, so i hope that's something that they're working on in practice soon.

Actual Practice Footage

[ARon]

Actual Practice Footage

I think remember Danny Lisch actually hitting one of those on the practice courts while back.

[brianstl]

I remember the reports of how great Vas'shun Newborne looked during these things.

[Archy McNally]

you know -- and all due respect -- I've heard that comment about MM and no drop off, etc. sorry but if he has to guard someone there's a drop off. believe me.

MM needs to lift and fill out cause right now he's pretty tiny. much smaller than I expected. it may get toasty with him guarding many of the A10 guards.

I really hope I'm wrong about MM -- he'll be like KW maybe in 2 years, but no drop off now? c'mon...

ps believe me you can tell a lot by watching pick up games. granted it's not practice but demeanor and guts and character all add up. One of the very best pick up guys I ever saw at SLU was Kevin--what a tiger; anyone could watch those games and tell who was the real deal. it's not that hard to see basic stuff guys ...not when you've been around gyms for the better part of your life, it seems... Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule -- right?

Doc, I agree with you about the pickup games. Sure it is pickup, of course a D1 game is a lot different. Somebody like Chris Sloan or Kyle Cassity or Jeff Harris may not stand out a whole bunch. But typically, you can at least get an indication of how guys are progressing or who looks real good. KM, Hughes, Bonner probably stand out as the best players in pickup. Look at who you said looks surprisingly good: CR and the transfer. Other reports have verified what you said. Is that worthless info? Of course not. Please keep it coming. That is what the board is for.

Also, I also thought the perceived "criticism" in your comments was more than reasonable and not harsh at all. In fact, it seems to be a more useful post than somebody hearing from somebody else who saw a pickup game and there will be no dropoff from KM when MM enters the game. Sound like the Billikan Recruiting Hype machine out of control again -similar to the Newborne stuff we were hearing. Not that I don't want to hear those reports either, but a reasonable critical post is refreshing and allows the reader to have a little more faith in the positive reports.

[Archy McNally]

And when is the best time to see pickup again? Gives me a good excuse to go eat some BBQ (or maybe the Tap Room, or maybe both).

[Clock_Tower]

CS was real solid on the D towards the end of last season. He had to learn on the job. Our incomiong Frosh may not get that luxury. They have experienced players in front of them. It truly may be next year before they truly "get it" on that end of the floor.

As much fun as it is to look forward to 2011-2012 season and how good this team will be, I will focus on the here and now. If we don't really get any major contributions from the the frosh this year--we should still be better than last season as everyone returning should be better. Really, any contributions we get from any of the new recruits will be icing on the cake already. This is one of the best things about having such a young team last season--we really get to watch these guys for their whole careers and experience the beginning of a whole new era of Billiken's basketball as RM leads this prgram into national prominance.

It is a fun time to be a Billiken's fan.

The incoming Frosh will not have the pressure that CS and KC did last year. CS had no prior experience and KC had very little prior experience, playing sparingly - 1 year - behind KL and TL. Both CS and KC were thrown out there last Fall to sink or swim - and it showed. We will not being doing that this year with MM, JJ and DE (and also won't do that with Rob Loe in that we also have WR, BC and CR). While it would be great if both CS and KC stepped-up their games this year, if either CS or KC can really step-up and play some strong minutes, then guys like MM and JJ can step-in and play, w/o the pressure and with the assistance of two (2) experienced guards: KM and CS/KC.

[jjray]

The incoming Frosh will not have the pressure that CS and KC did last year. CS had no prior experience and KC had very little prior experience, playing sparingly - 1 year - behind KL and TL. Both CS and KC were thrown out there last Fall to sink or swim - and it showed. We will not being doing that this year with MM, JJ and DE (and also won't do that with Rob Loe in that we also have WR, BC and CR). While it would be great if both CS and KC stepped-up their games this year, if either CS or KC can really step-up and play some strong minutes, then guys like MM and JJ can step-in and play, w/o the pressure and with the assistance of two (2) experienced guards: KM and CS/KC.

I hope that as the season wears on, the incoming freshmen push CS and KC for playing time. Hopefully CS has worked on his shooting mechanics over the winter (shot comes out flat). Agree with those who said CS's defense improved as the season wore on. KC must be able to knock down an open jumper, period. We can't afford to go through another season with the defense sagging into the paint anytime KC gets the ball on the wing. If TL3 can magically develop a jump shot over the winter, one has hope a guy as smart and who works as hard as Kyle can find his shot. It would be a huge boost to the team if he did because you know his name will be in the starting lineup when the season opens.

[Clock_Tower]

I hope that as the season wears on, the incoming freshmen push CS and KC for playing time. Hopefully CS has worked on his shooting mechanics over the winter (shot comes out flat). Agree with those who said CS's defense improved as the season wore on. KC must be able to knock down an open jumper, period. We can't afford to go through another season with the defense sagging into the paint anytime KC gets the ball on the wing. If TL3 can magically develop a jump shot over the winter, one has hope a guy as smart and who works as hard as Kyle can find his shot. It would be a huge boost to the team if he did because you know his name will be in the starting lineup when the season opens.

Added strength/experience will increase KC's range and allow him to make the shot even if bumped or pushed a little but KC has always shown great form and mechanics. TL did not show good form/mechanics his Freshman year so it's different. Still, KC's biggest challenge is to overcome the mental portion of shooting -- confidence and not being afraid/timid. He came along more than I expected last year and hope he makes another improvement by November. A confident, good-shooting KC will put this team over the top.