Ya gotta Love It

[slufanskip]

"the competitive world" doesnt neccessarily equate to living up to promises and treating people the right way. if that is the "consequences" of winning, i think we should be ashamed to embrace such.

if you truly believe that every single player that left left the program because he sought more playing time and was not pushed out the door, you are naive. i laugh when i hear folks talk about how thompson quit on his own even though we all know that he was ridiculed and harrassed daily by the coach and the last straw was the coach bringing it up again at the year end banquet. yes i guess thompson quit on his own, but no doubt he was more than "encouraged" to leave as well.

no argument the roster is stronger than it has been in my lifetime, and i am happy that we are winning. but it is somewhat of a hollow feeling for me as well to know how saint louis university treated those athletes that were excited about a slu education and then to have their world reshuffled and started again at a much lesser institution. i value my slu education very highly, and i doubt that if given the chance i would trade it for a couple of seasons of increased playing time at northsouth western state college of the mountains. not sure why we couldnt have just spent the extra year or two of said players time to replace their spots naturally as they came up at graduation. was there a fear that our coaching staff wouldnt have been able to accomplish that? the staff has proven they can find players. so why burn those player bridges? sighhhhh. but we have been through the subject enough. it is what it is. and i have the peace of knowing i will be a billiken club member long after this regime is gone.

Blaming RM for BT is nuts. It's too bad RM was too mean for him. I get tired of hearing about the poor kids who got yelled at too much while getting a free education, room, board, and travel to play basketball. Sometimes it gets rough, some players have to be pushed. Most of the people who heard RM's statements about BT at the banquet didn't think they were harsh, in fact the majority of people who heard it were surprised anyone had even a little problem. These guys aren't babies, they are adults. It's a competitive world, just like someone on an academic scholarship has to keep his grades at a certain level to avoid losing his scholarship, someone on an athletic scholarship has to keep his skills at a certain level to retain his scholarship. I get sick of hearing about how these are just kids. Please then lets have a world where no 18 or 19 year old gets to vote, can have a full time job, get married, have a kid, join the military etc ......

At 18, 19, and sometimes 20 years old, these young men should be learning that you have to produce. It'll be the same way when they get jobs, jobs that many other young people the same age have to deal with now because they weren't blessed with the ability or physical attributes to play college basketball.

Not only that .... here is the kicker. They are told when they sign up that it's a 1 year deal. What's so hard to understand?

[bsheldon]

Here is another way to look at it.

We are talking about what is "fair"concerning the players on the team.

How fair is it to:

The entire student body, every fan of the program, the vendors at the Fetz, the retailers of SLU apparel, etc, for "player A" to not play well enough to merit court time. He is holding a schollie that a new recuit may be dying for and the new recruit may be a better player than "player A." Is that fair to a potential recruit? To the program as a whole? What about the players on the team that do merit court time? Wouldn't their games and potentially their ability to earn a living at the game improve if they were pushed that much harder everyday in practice by better competition? What about the coaches? Wouldn't their jobs be easier?

I am sorry but we live in a capitalistic and performance based society. You perform or you no longer get to participate. Be that at Burger King, little league, NASA, or any blue-chip company in the world. Why should this be different? Also, I would wager that most of the players playing at the college level had to earn their way on to their JR high teams and then again on the JV team and then the varsity. Many players were cut along the way. They already know the rules of the game long before college: Perform or don't play. Yes there is huge money attached to the scholarship, but as has been stated, it should be looked at as a huge priveledge that is earned and not a right. If they still want to come to school here they can, just no longer free an no longer taking the place of a superior player (or one that fits the current roster better). If they aren't good enough to play here and still want to play they have to find a "lesser" team--just like in little league when a kid doesn't make the "A" team and has to play for the "B" team or go to a "lesser" league.

[mcglotherirvin]

Here we go again. Jeff Reid and his coach openly stated that he left on good terms with nothing but good things to say about RM. What more do you want? Look around. Kids are transferring from virtually every school. It happens. No matter what, there will always be several players who don't get much PT - usually 3 or 4. And of those 3 or 4, 2 or 3 of them are not happy about it and want to leave.

If we are naive to believe Thompson left on his own, are we also naive to believe Obi, Horace, and the others all left on their own? And are we also naive to believe Sodie didn't actually want to push out John Seyfert?

"the competitive world" doesnt neccessarily equate to living up to promises and treating people the right way. if that is the "consequences" of winning, i think we should be ashamed to embrace such.

if you truly believe that every single player that left left the program because he sought more playing time and was not pushed out the door, you are naive. i laugh when i hear folks talk about how thompson quit on his own even though we all know that he was ridiculed and harrassed daily by the coach and the last straw was the coach bringing it up again at the year end banquet. yes i guess thompson quit on his own, but no doubt he was more than "encouraged" to leave as well.

no argument the roster is stronger than it has been in my lifetime, and i am happy that we are winning. but it is somewhat of a hollow feeling for me as well to know how saint louis university treated those athletes that were excited about a slu education and then to have their world reshuffled and started again at a much lesser institution. i value my slu education very highly, and i doubt that if given the chance i would trade it for a couple of seasons of increased playing time at northsouth western state college of the mountains. not sure why we couldnt have just spent the extra year or two of said players time to replace their spots naturally as they came up at graduation. was there a fear that our coaching staff wouldnt have been able to accomplish that? the staff has proven they can find players. so why burn those player bridges? sighhhhh. but we have been through the subject enough. it is what it is. and i have the peace of knowing i will be a billiken club member long after this regime is gone.

[cheeseman]

"the competitive world" doesnt neccessarily equate to living up to promises and treating people the right way. if that is the "consequences" of winning, i think we should be ashamed to embrace such.

if you truly believe that every single player that left left the program because he sought more playing time and was not pushed out the door, you are naive. i laugh when i hear folks talk about how thompson quit on his own even though we all know that he was ridiculed and harrassed daily by the coach and the last straw was the coach bringing it up again at the year end banquet. yes i guess thompson quit on his own, but no doubt he was more than "encouraged" to leave as well.

no argument the roster is stronger than it has been in my lifetime, and i am happy that we are winning. but it is somewhat of a hollow feeling for me as well to know how saint louis university treated those athletes that were excited about a slu education and then to have their world reshuffled and started again at a much lesser institution. i value my slu education very highly, and i doubt that if given the chance i would trade it for a couple of seasons of increased playing time at northsouth western state college of the mountains. not sure why we couldnt have just spent the extra year or two of said players time to replace their spots naturally as they came up at graduation. was there a fear that our coaching staff wouldnt have been able to accomplish that? the staff has proven they can find players. so why burn those player bridges? sighhhhh. but we have been through the subject enough. it is what it is. and i have the peace of knowing i will be a billiken club member long after this regime is gone.

Roy, I certainly understand your perspective and to some point actually agree. After all, why should only the player be held accountable for their actions - why not the coach who made the mistake of recruiting him or not evaluating him accurately. Now when a new coach comes then all bets are off - fair is fair to the new guy and his needs. In BT's situation, no one really knows what happened. I am willing to accept that the kid was told many times about his weight issue and his need to improve - was it verbal abuse or just a frustration with the kid not listening and doing? - who knows. I can assure you that Father Biondi treats all his employees kind of the same way - he dumps them if he thinks he can do better - yes I know this from knowing people who have experienced his wrath. So, should we be attacking him for his behavior and then not giving money or sending our kids to SLU? My points are simply these, people have to learn that tough deals happen - the sooner you learn that the better off you are and BT left RM high and dry this year since he never said he was leaving and RM stopped recruiting another big - we know that from what has been written on this board by people who cover the team. In this instance, RM paid the price too along with his team.

[joe_davola]

My bad.

No problem man. I guess it is hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic when you can't hear the words they are typing

[joe_davola]

College athletics should be more like tee ball. We should let every kid have a spot on the team and get equal playing time. We should also let their parents stand on the field with them to make sure they are happy.

Win or lose, do we get to hit up Ted Drewes after the games, and then Happy Joe's for the season finale?

[Dungeon Yankee]

It's a competitive world, just like someone on an academic scholarship has to keep his grades at a certain level to avoid losing his scholarship, someone on an athletic scholarship has to keep his skills at a certain level to retain his scholarship. I get sick of hearing about how these are just kids. Please then lets have a world where no 18 or 19 year old gets to vote, can have a full time job, get married, have a kid, join the military etc ......

Not only that .... here is the kicker. They are told when they sign up that it's a 1 year deal. What's so hard to understand?

my wife's niece had an academic scholarship to Ariz St U. She had to maintain a 3.5 to keep it for her soph year. she pulled a 3.3 her frosh year. she lost her scholarship. life can be cruel but the niece understood the rules going in.

The only major school and coach that I know of that allows you to keep your athletic scholarship for 4 years once in the program is joe paterno, assuming of course that you don't lose it because of academics or bad behavior. i'm sure there are others, but ever wonder how some football programs, especially in the south, sign 25 or 28 every year when the scholarship limit is 85?

[bsheldon]

"It's a competitive world, just like someone on an academic scholarship has to keep his grades at a certain level to avoid losing his scholarship, someone on an athletic scholarship has to keep his skills at a certain level to retain his scholarship. I get sick of hearing about how these are just kids. Please then lets have a world where no 18 or 19 year old gets to vote, can have a full time job, get married, have a kid, join the military etc ......

'Not only that .... here is the kicker. They are told when they sign up that it's a 1 year deal. What's so hard to understand?'"

DY, Well said. I couldn't agree more.

[Dungeon Yankee]

"It's a competitive world, just like someone on an academic scholarship has to keep his grades at a certain level to avoid losing his scholarship, someone on an athletic scholarship has to keep his skills at a certain level to retain his scholarship. I get sick of hearing about how these are just kids. Please then lets have a world where no 18 or 19 year old gets to vote, can have a full time job, get married, have a kid, join the military etc ......

'Not only that .... here is the kicker. They are told when they sign up that it's a 1 year deal. What's so hard to understand?'"

DY, Well said. I couldn't agree more.

give credit to slufanship, he made that post and i replied to it

[Box and Won]

Win or lose, do we get to hit up Ted Drewes after the games, and then Happy Joe's for the season finale?

Ted Drewes for a W, Slurpees for a L.

[ACE]

Blaming RM for BT is nuts. It's too bad RM was too mean for him. I get tired of hearing about the poor kids who got yelled at too much while getting a free education, room, board, and travel to play basketball. Sometimes it gets rough, some players have to be pushed. Most of the people who heard RM's statements about BT at the banquet didn't think they were harsh, in fact the majority of people who heard it were surprised anyone had even a little problem. These guys aren't babies, they are adults. It's a competitive world, just like someone on an academic scholarship has to keep his grades at a certain level to avoid losing his scholarship, someone on an athletic scholarship has to keep his skills at a certain level to retain his scholarship. I get sick of hearing about how these are just kids. Please then lets have a world where no 18 or 19 year old gets to vote, can have a full time job, get married, have a kid, join the military etc ......

At 18, 19, and sometimes 20 years old, these young men should be learning that you have to produce. It'll be the same way when they get jobs, jobs that many other young people the same age have to deal with now because they weren't blessed with the ability or physical attributes to play college basketball.

Not only that .... here is the kicker. They are told when they sign up that it's a 1 year deal. What's so hard to understand?

+1

Roy's little story suggesting Thompson was "pushed" out the door makes absolutely no sense. When the Sodie three left, they did so in April, right before the spring signing period. So it gave the staff an opportunity to find some replacements. IF RM wanted Thomspon to leave, he would would have asked him to leave in April so he could replace him. Instead, Thompson left in June, when it was too late to replace him. Based on that timing, there is no way RM pushed Thompson out. The timing of Thompson's departure left the team short-handed. BT got a decent number of minutes as a freshman and the team certainly could have used him this past year. It would have eased the absence of Cody in the first semester and allowed Cory to redshirt.

Do you really think RM said a bunch of mean stuff hoping Brett would leave? Please. If RM wanted BT to leave, he would be a lot more direct and just told him to leave in April. I think what RM was trying to do was motivate somebody who was out of shape and apparently needed to be pushed. It turns out the kid wasn't very mentally tough. If he couldn't handle the pressure of a coach pushing him to get better, how in the hell could we expect the kid to handle the pressure of playing at places like Xavier and Dayton. On top of that, reportedly the kid wasn't getting it done in the classroom. You can't blame that on RM being a meanie.

[Pick and Roll]

"the competitive world" doesnt neccessarily equate to living up to promises and treating people the right way. if that is the "consequences" of winning, i think we should be ashamed to embrace such.

if you truly believe that every single player that left left the program because he sought more playing time and was not pushed out the door, you are naive. i laugh when i hear folks talk about how thompson quit on his own even though we all know that he was ridiculed and harrassed daily by the coach and the last straw was the coach bringing it up again at the year end banquet. yes i guess thompson quit on his own, but no doubt he was more than "encouraged" to leave as well.

no argument the roster is stronger than it has been in my lifetime, and i am happy that we are winning. but it is somewhat of a hollow feeling for me as well to know how saint louis university treated those athletes that were excited about a slu education and then to have their world reshuffled and started again at a much lesser institution. i value my slu education very highly, and i doubt that if given the chance i would trade it for a couple of seasons of increased playing time at northsouth western state college of the mountains. not sure why we couldnt have just spent the extra year or two of said players time to replace their spots naturally as they came up at graduation. was there a fear that our coaching staff wouldnt have been able to accomplish that? the staff has proven they can find players. so why burn those player bridges? sighhhhh. but we have been through the subject enough. it is what it is. and i have the peace of knowing i will be a billiken club member long after this regime is gone.

You should type up a template of your feelings and cut and paste it once a week to a thread of your choosing. It would save you a ton of time and delay your need for a carpal tunnel release.

[billiken_roy]

You should type up a template of your feelings and cut and paste it once a week to a thread of your choosing. It would save you a ton of time and delay your need for a carpal tunnel release.

I could write the same for all the rickma sainthood posts.

[davidnark]

if you truly believe that every single player that left left the program because he sought more playing time and was not pushed out the door, you are naive. i laugh when i hear folks talk about how thompson quit on his own even though we all know that he was ridiculed and harrassed daily by the coach and the last straw was the coach bringing it up again at the year end banquet. yes i guess thompson quit on his own, but no doubt he was more than "encouraged" to leave as well.

I do not have inside information on the Thompson situation, but people I trust who do have inside information claim the staff was surprised and disappointed when Thompson left.

I am, however, pretty good at logic and connecting the dots. In this instance, I have noted the following "dots": (i) if Majerus wanted to run Thompson off he would have done so in early April so that he could have signed another player, (ii) Thompson conveniently left the program shorty after final grades were announced, and (iii) Thompson had to sit out a semester at Lindenwood--an NAIA school with notoriously flexible academic standards--due to academic issues at SLU. My logical assumption is that Thompson probably left because he couldn't hack the academics (and possibly high-level basketball) at SLU.

[billiken_roy]

edit: statement removed to not bring myself down to nark's level.

[Quality Is Job 1]

edit: statement removed to not bring myself down to nark's level.

Roy, Nark made fair points in his post; how would you have to "go down to his level" to address those points? Or is your axe against Coach Majerus so big that you actually went below Nark's level? A man doesn't necessarily have to be a nice guy to be a good guy. (I'm not saying whether Coach Majerus is a good guy or not — just making the general point.)

[MB73]

"the competitive world" doesnt neccessarily equate to living up to promises and treating people the right way. if that is the "consequences" of winning, i think we should be ashamed to embrace such.

if you truly believe that every single player that left left the program because he sought more playing time and was not pushed out the door, you are naive. i laugh when i hear folks talk about how thompson quit on his own even though we all know that he was ridiculed and harrassed daily by the coach and the last straw was the coach bringing it up again at the year end banquet. yes i guess thompson quit on his own, but no doubt he was more than "encouraged" to leave as well.

no argument the roster is stronger than it has been in my lifetime, and i am happy that we are winning. but it is somewhat of a hollow feeling for me as well to know how saint louis university treated those athletes that were excited about a slu education and then to have their world reshuffled and started again at a much lesser institution. i value my slu education very highly, and i doubt that if given the chance i would trade it for a couple of seasons of increased playing time at northsouth western state college of the mountains. not sure why we couldnt have just spent the extra year or two of said players time to replace their spots naturally as they came up at graduation. was there a fear that our coaching staff wouldnt have been able to accomplish that? the staff has proven they can find players. so why burn those player bridges? sighhhhh. but we have been through the subject enough. it is what it is. and i have the peace of knowing i will be a billiken club member long after this regime is gone.

So when 62 year old Majerus's Hall of Fame Career is over, after 30+ yrs of very successful NCAA D1 coaching, taking teams to NCAA tourney, developing players for the NBS, ESPN commentator, taking SLU from the doldrums into a contender (maybe better TBD), you will feel that you "win" by remaining a member of The Billiken Club? "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go".

Give it up, Lone Wolf Broy, Majerus is spectacular, and handling the team transistion with dignity and class. As good as anywhere under the circumstances. Fewer players will leave each yr as he gets competitive players in each academic class year.

[moytoy12]

I agree with both sides on this. Players should be required to keep up a certain level of play to keep the schollie. Also, if a SLU player really wants that SLU education, he or she will find a way to stay.

RM shares some blame for BT leaving. I'm not going to rehash the entire thread from a month ago, but there was probably a different way to reach BT; not every player responds to the tough love form of discipline/coaching. That being said, BT ultimately made the decisions that resulted in his poor performance in the classroom and presumably (since we're not in practice) on the court.

I still think BT would have been a solid player for this program, but he didn't have the fire and RM couldn't find the right method to reach the kid and stoke that fire.

RM is not perfect, he needs to shut up sometimes. He's crass and there are reports (from people on this board) that he doesn't treat his subordinates well. However, he is also successful and does stress a lot of the right things (e.g. academics, team, defense, hustle). His heart is seemingly in the right place, even if his mouth isn't. He ain't perfect, but he's no calipari either.

I can see the faults in RM, but I'm really happy he's here.

[JohnnyJumpUp]

I still think BT would have been a solid player for this program, but he didn't have the fire and RM couldn't find the right method to reach the kid and stoke that fire.

If Thompson would have been a solid player for this program I think that Majerus would have found the right method to get him motivated. Thompson leaving was the best thing to happen for both sides. SLU became a better team and Thompson moved on to Lindenwood where his level of game is appreciated.

Of course Majerus has his faults, who doesn't. I think that if you are a supporter of SLU basketball and its success, (like you said) you have got to enjoy seeing a coach like him with the program.

[slufanskip]

I agree with both sides on this. Players should be required to keep up a certain level of play to keep the schollie. Also, if a SLU player really wants that SLU education, he or she will find a way to stay.

RM shares some blame for BT leaving. I'm not going to rehash the entire thread from a month ago, but there was probably a different way to reach BT; not every player responds to the tough love form of discipline/coaching. That being said, BT ultimately made the decisions that resulted in his poor performance in the classroom and presumably (since we're not in practice) on the court.

I still think BT would have been a solid player for this program, but he didn't have the fire and RM couldn't find the right method to reach the kid and stoke that fire.

RM is not perfect, he needs to shut up sometimes. He's crass and there are reports (from people on this board) that he doesn't treat his subordinates well. However, he is also successful and does stress a lot of the right things (e.g. academics, team, defense, hustle). His heart is seemingly in the right place, even if his mouth isn't. He ain't perfect, but he's no calipari either.

I can see the faults in RM, but I'm really happy he's here.

Moy, I agree 100%.

[slu72 fan]

The real injustice is that if the player leaves or is forced out, he has to sit out a year in order to continue to play D-1. Coaches and administrators aren't held to the same standard. If coaches were not allowed to replace the player for a year, I suspect you'd see a lot fewer players switching. If coaches and administrators were not able to work for a year, I think you'd see a lot fewer coaches and administrators leave schools.

I keep reading all this garbage about a scholarship only being for a year. That's only true for the player! Obviously, they don't have anyone at the table representing them when these rules are created.

[slufanskip]

The real injustice is that if the player leaves or is forced out, he has to sit out a year in order to continue to play D-1. Coaches and administrators aren't held to the same standard. If coaches were not allowed to replace the player for a year, I suspect you'd see a lot fewer players switching. If coaches and administrators were not able to work for a year, I think you'd see a lot fewer coaches and administrators leave schools.

I keep reading all this garbage about a scholarship only being for a year. That's only true for the player! Obviously, they don't have anyone at the table representing them when these rules are created.

as you know I've been preaching that same idea for years.

Here's what ought to happen. Every scholarship is for 1 year. At the end of the season by say May 1st, the school and the player both resign or either can opt out with no penalty. Once you reup your in for that year. At the end of the year the player sits down with the caoch and discusses his future and where he fits with the program. At the same time, you can't except a LOI unless you have a spot. There would need to be a few camps where coaches can watch the players who became available and make offers to them. HS Sr's could either sign a LOI early and know that they have a spot and can't be replaced by a player choosing to transfer or they could choose to wait and see if a spot opens up at a school they'd prefer.

No penalties for anyone. If you aren't re signed by May 1st you are a free agent. One caveat, your academics have to be on track to enroll at another school

[billiken_roy]

Majerus is spectacular, and handling the team transistion with dignity and class.

i spit soda all over my computer screen when i read that! dignity and class are not synonymous with rickma.

[joe_davola]

i spit soda all over my computer screen when i read that! dignity and class are not synonymous with rickma.

Yes they are...prove me wrong. Big Rick is the man and he will be the man that takes us to the next level....

Also, Porter is the man. Can't wait till he takes over.

Davola

[billiken_roy]

Yes they are...prove me wrong. Big Rick is the man and he will be the man that takes us to the next level....

Also, Porter is the man. Can't wait till he takes over.

Davola

a person with dignity and class does not come out against their employer's decisions publically. behind closed doors they might fight like crazy, but publically they are one.

a person with dignity and class would not have to close their practice to keep the public from hearing the rude crude language and see the x-rated actions to direct his players.

a person with dignity and class wouldnt publically throw his players under the bus after losses ("they are not my players") and would instead take ownership of the problems and results even if not true.

a person with dignity and class would not take away the dreams of young men promised by a university and send them away from saint louis university

a person with dignity and class would not turn away from the expectations of being an ambassador for the university at every opportunity. they might even do a weekly television or radio show to enhance the school even more.

a person with dignity and class even if he truly was too busy to do such a radio show, wouldnt show up a week later on a competing local radio station and do a show in chicago.