Early summer observations

[Billikan]

I occasionally read and almost never post anymore because we have had very little substantive discussion about our team on this site but the Thompson news seemed to be a catalyst for some real discussion.

With regard to Thompson, I was at the banquet about 10 feet from the coach when he gave his speech and like most occasions when he is giving a speech I found it very interesting and yet I cringed when he made some of his comments. I do not think that the comments about Thompson were much different than what he said about others and much less irritating than the comments made about Barry and -- although I thought they were well intended--Daniel Lisch.

Nonetheless, as a father of a young man who played college basketball, I could really identify with a relative of Brett regarding those comments. They were of the type that a coach would give in the post season meeting with the player. In that venue, I see nothing at all wrong with them and every good coach in the country makes even more aggressive in such a meeting. The issue is whether you repeat those comments in a more public setting. This coach seems to have a tendency to do that and we have seen it since the day he arrived. I do not think that the comments are mean spirited and I am disappointed that Brett and his family took them so personally. The jury was out on whether he could be a player who really contributed but I would have liked to seem him try. I wish him luck.

As to the team as a whole, we as fans have to realize that next years team will be all inexperienced youngsters in terms of D1 basketball. However, I also think that this team will be more athletic and potentially more exciting--as a whole--than any team in memory. We have an excellent soph lead guard who can score and be a leader and he will have a talented and quick, if inexperienced backup. We have tough guys like Conklin and Ellis--who can also shoot. We have athletes like Willie, Smith, Remeken, Femi, and mid sized smart players who can play and shoot in Salecich, Reid and Cassidy. Eckerle will the old man of the group and should help to provide toughness in practice.

Most of the teams who excelled in post season had a lot of guards and mid sized players. The coach has said dozens of times that he thought we would have a very good team when last years freshmen were juniors. The youngsters will get all of the time this year. We will have a chance to recruit a couple of nice players for next year to help bolster the team.

I am sorry we lost Thompson but it seems to me that the overall plan is still movinr in a positive direction.

[Clock_Tower]

I occasionally read and almost never post anymore because we have had very little substantive discussion about our team on this site but the Thompson news seemed to be a catalyst for some real discussion.

With regard to Thompson, I was at the banquet about 10 feet from the coach when he gave his speech and like most occasions when he is giving a speech I found it very interesting and yet I cringed when he made some of his comments. I do not think that the comments about Thompson were much different than what he said about others and much less irritating than the comments made about Barry and -- although I thought they were well intended--Daniel Lisch.

Nonetheless, as a father of a young man who played college basketball, I could really identify with a relative of Brett regarding those comments. They were of the type that a coach would give in the post season meeting with the player. In that venue, I see nothing at all wrong with them and every good coach in the country makes even more aggressive in such a meeting. The issue is whether you repeat those comments in a more public setting. This coach seems to have a tendency to do that and we have seen it since the day he arrived. I do not think that the comments are mean spirited and I am disappointed that Brett and his family took them so personally. The jury was out on whether he could be a player who really contributed but I would have liked to seem him try. I wish him luck.

As to the team as a whole, we as fans have to realize that next years team will be all inexperienced youngsters in terms of D1 basketball. However, I also think that this team will be more athletic and potentially more exciting--as a whole--than any team in memory. We have an excellent soph lead guard who can score and be a leader and he will have a talented and quick, if inexperienced backup. We have tough guys like Conklin and Ellis--who can also shoot. We have athletes like Willie, Smith, Remeken, Femi, and mid sized smart players who can play and shoot in Salecich, Reid and Cassidy. Eckerle will the old man of the group and should help to provide toughness in practice.

Most of the teams who excelled in post season had a lot of guards and mid sized players. The coach has said dozens of times that he thought we would have a very good team when last years freshmen were juniors. The youngsters will get all of the time this year. We will have a chance to recruit a couple of nice players for next year to help bolster the team.

I am sorry we lost Thompson but it seems to me that the overall plan is still movinr in a positive direction.

Very well stated. Dittos.

[slu72]

Very well stated. Dittos.

Always appreciate when Billikan posts as he is probably one of the board's most knowledgeable insiders and a real Billiken supporter. Losing Thompson was a bit of a surprise, at least to me. It seemed he got decent minutes for a work in progress big. But as discussed many times here it ain't easy playing for RM. Of course, I don't think any top level HC is easy to play for anymore. Why BT left will probably never be answered fully. Was it the public tongue lashing? Was it private/in practice tongue lashings? Who knows.... he's gone and we'll just have to move forward without him. There is one nagging thought though that I think is in the back of all Billiken fans at this point; Cotto left, Thompson left... are opposing HC's going to use these transfers against us on the recruiting trail? Most definitely.

[Taj79]

Kan-do obviously has some experience in this arena and I too admit to liking his posts and will give them seriuos consideration. They are thought-provoking to say the least. I rrefer to him as "Kan-do" because his posts are almost always positive and he practices his preaching very well.

Having said that, I think we need to pull back on some of the reins here. I am agreeing with his assessment on the reaction to the public comments --both in that RM should might not have said them, and to the somewhat overeaction theory we are putting on the recipients of the words. Not saying either is right or either is wrong. As for the thoughts that this coming team will be more athletic ---well, it better be. And that alone would make it more exciting although I think that most of us would agree that the most exciting thing about RM's track record is that he wins. There's no Phi Slamma Jamma or the Doctors of Dunk waiting around the corner. And not that we need that extreme. But in terms of athletic talent, if we had much of it the last three years, I didn't see it. Iam, Bryce, Barry, Luke, Kevin, Conklin and Thompson were not "high flyers." Tommie, who might have actually had the talent to be so didn't exhibit it but on rare occassions. Willie shows promise and Mitchell might be about one of the best point guards we've ever had but the jury remains more out than in right now. Although I am almost certain his will be a positive end result.

We all know we are going to be the youngest D-I team in the nation next year. It wll be interesting to see how KM and WR lead especially now that the senior element of Lisch and Liddell are gone. But I think kids are maturing a lot quicker than in the past and this might be okay. Same with the addition of international competitors like the Aussies. But not only are the Aussies joining a new team, they're coming to a new continent and will have a small support group. Only time will tell how that all plays out. Right now, this returning team doesn't excite as much as the 1998 team did --- when all we lost was Hughes. I thought for sure the press clippings and one-year play of Baniak, tatum and Heinrich would more than offset the loss of one player. How wrong was I? So while I am excited for two nice, back-to-back recruiting classes, I still remember that this is Billiken basketball and not normal. So give it time.

I am glad Kan-do can annpoint Ellis as a tough guy. I don't have a knowledge base upon which to make such a call. What if he's a soft, international dough boy? What if he's tough as nails against inferior competition, the kind that wilts in front of a front line like Cincinnati or Louisville? Wht if he's slow and plodding ala Brett? Brett's time was cut because of match-up issues with smaller, quicker A10 teams. All I'm saying is you never know. i like that KM can score but I prefer my point as a distributor. A point that's your leading scorer creates an Allen Iverson situation. Despite one NBA final appearance, a team bsed around an AI type -- well, that's not good in my book. Let's also wait for some actual shooting in this country to drop before we say Ellis "can also shoot." I heard Dustin Maguire could shoot and how did that turn out? Drew Deiner? Donnie Adkins? Ricky Cranford? Show me first.

Smith, Remekun and John are athletes. How do we really know that? And how does that athleticism translate when Kevin Frease, CJ Anderson, Ahmad Nivins, Chris Wright and Kareen Seawright are standing in your way. Heck, even Kurt Huelsman. And how do we really know if Salescich, Reid and Cassity are "smart" players who can "play and shoot?" This is interesting because I really do believe Cassity was a "smart" player. A real nice gym rat kind of kid. Could he shoot? His field goal percentage for this past year was 25.8%, his three-point percentage was 23.1% and his freethrow percentage was 45.5%. If this is what we can look forward to with Salescich and Reid, color me afradi --- VERY afraid.

Overall, I agree with Kan-do's assessment --- the college game always runs through the guards and the small forwards. Having a bruiser like a Tyson Thomas, or a Kevin Love, or a Tyler Hansbrough is obviously a good compliment to the greyhounds and will likely allow you better matchups if and when needed. But you can still win without one.

All I'm saying is that we need to temper our desires to have a top-notch team with the realization that we are still babes in toyland here. Let's not be too quick to annoint some of these kids as shooters, athletes, defenders, etc. just yet. The future still looks bright, losing Thompson hurts but is a recoverable wound. Loisng Mitchell would kill this team right now in my book. All the others are relatively interchangable and unproven right now. This year has a great chance of repeating last year's roller coaster.

[MusicCityBilliken]

Of course, I don't think any top level HC is easy to play for anymore.

are opposing HC's going to use these transfers against us on the recruiting trail? Most definitely.

Two excellent Posts from Billiken and '72.

Being a HC at a major program is unbelievably difficult because of the $ involved. Look at Gillespie or closer to home at our small little operation. BS had a decent season and I really think Bondi could have probably cared less but it was our few big $ supporters that wanted him out or no arena. They wanted to see a program at the level of a XU or Gonzaga.

Regarding using Rick's personality and coaching style against him, 72, you answered it. You don't think the SI article hurt? That probably the major reason for hiring Harriman and his Down-under connections. You have to hand it to Rick, he knows his weaknesses and how to compensate for it.

Now coaches like Calhoun and Pitino can talk and act like horses-a***** but they can get away with it. They win. Hopefully Rick will do the same in the next 2 years.

[Clock_Tower]

Always appreciate when Billikan posts as he is probably one of the board's most knowledgeable insiders and a real Billiken supporter. Losing Thompson was a bit of a surprise, at least to me. It seemed he got decent minutes for a work in progress big. But as discussed many times here it ain't easy playing for RM. Of course, I don't think any top level HC is easy to play for anymore. Why BT left will probably never be answered fully. Was it the public tongue lashing? Was it private/in practice tongue lashings? Who knows.... he's gone and we'll just have to move forward without him. There is one nagging thought though that I think is in the back of all Billiken fans at this point; Cotto left, Thompson left... are opposing HC's going to use these transfers against us on the recruiting trail? Most definitely.

Opposing HC will use anything they can, so the answer I would suggest, is "Yes." Then next question, though, should be "Will it do any good for these opposing coaches?" to which I would suggest "No."

I fully admit that RM and his unique ways are new to me. For those who know him (opposing coaches), there appears to be nothing new at all. He appears to be the same coach he was at his prior stops - including Utah. A large number of guys quit on him at Utah and/or RM drove them off. The numbers are not explained solely by kids leaving for Morman missions. Keith Van Horn and other stars nearly quit and/or lost great desire playing for RM. Prior posts also suggest that other guys still praise RM for developing them into top players but do not like him personally and do not want to be around him anymore. What RM did with our guys -- including TL and BT but not limited to just them -- is not new or different.

Think about how it would work for an opposing coach. "Well son, if you really decide to play for RM, just remember that Freshman Ruben Cotto quit after only 6 games and a back-up Freshman center also quit after only 1 year. BT tried hard but "lost" to WR and BC and then watched RM recruit 3 more younger, quicker, athletic bigs. RC could not get playing time and displace 2 longtime starters (TL and KL) and run the point despite his skill set and language barrier and chose not to wait. Everyone on this Board agreed that when RM brought in 7 guys that some would naturally be gone. When it came time to placing a name on just who might leave, no one wanted to name someone.

In addition, just before landing last year's big class (including RC) let go our 4 scholarship kids. Should it hurt RM? Possibly. Will it hurt RM? I don't think so.

[cheeseman]

Always appreciate when Billikan posts as he is probably one of the board's most knowledgeable insiders and a real Billiken supporter. Losing Thompson was a bit of a surprise, at least to me. It seemed he got decent minutes for a work in progress big. But as discussed many times here it ain't easy playing for RM. Of course, I don't think any top level HC is easy to play for anymore. Why BT left will probably never be answered fully. Was it the public tongue lashing? Was it private/in practice tongue lashings? Who knows.... he's gone and we'll just have to move forward without him. There is one nagging thought though that I think is in the back of all Billiken fans at this point; Cotto left, Thompson left... are opposing HC's going to use these transfers against us on the recruiting trail? Most definitely.

I programs/coaches have players that transfer for one reason or another - can another coach use that to tell a player not to go to that program - of course but the good players all think that they are different and will be a star so they probably don't pay attention to much of it - who knows for sure. I am not too worried about this issue. Cotto left because he wanted to be a point guard not because he was not getting minutes or due to RM's personality. BT - his brother in another thread did tell us why BT left so go back and read that.

[billiken_roy]

Now coaches like Calhoun and Pitino can talk and act like horses-a***** but they can get away with it. They win. Hopefully Rick will do the same in the next 2 years.

a couple of folks now have insinuated or flat out stated that pitino is a tough talking hard to take head coach. all i know is that the last time the cusa tourney was in memphis, cusa had a policy of allowing the all sessions tickets to sit right behind the benches for the session that your team was going to play. i had the good fortune of sitting behind the louisville bench twice that tourney while the billiken game was the second game of that particular session.

both times, i got to watch pitino up close and see for myself what was up. i can tell you that in two games i never saw him once say a negative word to a single player. during the games if a player screwed up, he would immediately turn to one of the assistants and give him a sign or a word which i realized was the signal to get on that player. at any timeout or after a substitution, the assistants would be the "bad guys". pitino was always the good guy. in fact i remember one time pitino was furious at a player and told his asst he better get that straightened out. a few seconds later we got the tv timeout and the assistant lit into the player. pitino waited a few seconds and then came to the rescue of the kid i.e they played the "good cop bad cop" rountine to the fullest.

now i obviously have never been in a pitino practice. but i would bet money the instances of pitino being negative are few and far between. and i would especially be shocked if he uses public embarrassment and team practice takedowns as part of his regular practice. if there is negative feedback, i bet it is typically one on one and it is used in conjunction with positive reinforcement at the same time. i.e. "clyde, that was a great move you just put on your man, however, dont forget you have to get back on defense or it is all for nothing."

i totally agree with trey on one thing. you cant just be negative negative negative and expect your worker to accept that and get better to "show you". more times than not the result will be a broken spirit and a self fulfilling prophecy. sure there might be some one that responds to that method, but all in all i would say that is the rare response.

[courtside]

a couple of folks now have insinuated or flat out stated that pitino is a tough talking hard to take head coach. all i know is that the last time the cusa tourney was in memphis, cusa had a policy of allowing the all sessions tickets to sit right behind the benches for the session that your team was going to play. i had the good fortune of sitting behind the louisville bench twice that tourney while the billiken game was the second game of that particular session.

both times, i got to watch pitino up close and see for myself what was up. i can tell you that in two games i never saw him once say a negative word to a single player. during the games if a player screwed up, he would immediately turn to one of the assistants and give him a sign or a word which i realized was the signal to get on that player. at any timeout or after a substitution, the assistants would be the "bad guys". pitino was always the good guy. in fact i remember one time pitino was furious at a player and told his asst he better get that straightened out. a few seconds later we got the tv timeout and the assistant lit into the player. pitino waited a few seconds and then came to the rescue of the kid i.e they played the "good cop bad cop" rountine to the fullest.

now i obviously have never been in a pitino practice. but i would bet money the instances of pitino being negative are few and far between. and i would especially be shocked if he uses public embarrassment and team practice takedowns as part of his regular practice. if there is negative feedback, i bet it is typically one on one and it is used in conjunction with positive reinforcement at the same time. i.e. "clyde, that was a great move you just put on your man, however, dont forget you have to get back on defense or it is all for nothing."

i totally agree with trey on one thing. you cant just be negative negative negative and expect your worker to accept that and get better to "show you". more times than not the result will be a broken spirit and a self fulfilling prophecy. sure there might be some one that responds to that method, but all in all i would say that is the rare response.

Pitino like many major D-1 coaches has a huge ego, is controlling and has a temper. He has been known for some unique ways to fire up his team. One of them has been to fabricate quotes from opposing team players and blow them up newspaper style to fire up his kids. By this I mean he has had negative quotes made up from opposing teams' players attributing negative things said about Pitino's kids and their team. The story of it is that none of them are true. He tells his kids that the opposing team said all these terrible things about his kids, and he makes them all look real in newspaper style and he never tells his kids they aren't true. What about the opposing teams kids and their reputations? I have some good Pitino stories. I find it hard to believe that if Pitino were SLU's coach that you wouldn't be discussing his recently highly publicized personal indescretions because you have discussed off the court issues with other coaches.

I think your negative bias towards Majerus has been showing quite a bit. Kids transfer with great frequency at a lot of schools, not just SLU and not just under Majerus.

[billiken_roy]

Kids transfer with great frequency at a lot of schools, not just SLU and not just under Majerus.

no argument that kids transfer. my argument is that 7 in two years isnt normal. yes it happens, but in the overall picture of division one basketball, 7 in two years is not "great frequency" or "at a lot of schools". that is not normal.

and i am not defending pitino or saying all coaches should coach like him as well. i will say if you want me pick between a coach inventing bulletin board material or a coach going around daily calling his own kid fat and slow. i guess i'll take the bulletin board material.

[billiken_roy]

btw, i guess we just ruled out any chance that courtside is frank cusamono.

[kevinfootes]

no argument that kids transfer. my argument is that 7 in two years isnt normal. yes it happens, but in the overall picture of division one basketball, 7 in two years is not "great frequency" or "at a lot of schools". that is not normal.

and i am not defending pitino or saying all coaches should coach like him as well. i will say if you want me pick between a coach inventing bulletin board material or a coach going around daily calling his own kid fat and slow. i guess i'll take the bulletin board material.

roy, isn't fair to say that RM has lost 2 of his recruits...Cotto and Thompson? I'm not really counting the guys that Brad brought in, and Daniel Lisch was never going to be a 4-year guy. Am i missing anyone else? There is typically turnover when new coaches come in.

I agree that RM's style isn't for everyone. If he's not dancing by year 4 he won't have much nice-guy goodwill to use as a fallback.

[billiken_roy]

roy, isn't fair to say that RM has lost 2 of his recruits...Cotto and Thompson? I'm not really counting the guys that Brad brought in, and Daniel Lisch was never going to be a 4-year guy. Am i missing anyone else? There is typically turnover when new coaches come in.

I agree that RM's style isn't for everyone. If he's not dancing by year 4 he won't have much nice-guy goodwill to use as a fallback.

i think one or two players leaving is normal. what is happening here is not. if it was, considering there is about 40 d-1 coaching changes each year, then we should see at least 20+ programs each year with 7 players leaving in two years time. that isnt the case.

[Majerus Magic]

Apparently BT is transferring to Southeastern Louisiana University... I don't think that is a JUCO

[Majerus Magic]

double post

[kevinfootes]

i think one or two players leaving is normal. what is happening here is not. if it was, considering there is about 40 d-1 coaching changes each year, then we should see at least 20+ programs each year with 7 players leaving in two years time. that isnt the case.

You didn't answer the question. Isn't it fair to say that RM has lost 2 of "his" players?

We won't know for a few more years, but I doubt that many of the players leaving will wind up at better programs than SLU. BT probably hurts the most at this point, but I don't think we'll be saying "if we only had (insert name), we'd be in the big dance" in 2 years.

[davidnark]

i think one or two players leaving is normal. what is happening here is not. if it was, considering there is about 40 d-1 coaching changes each year, then we should see at least 20+ programs each year with 7 players leaving in two years time. that isnt the case.

Daniel Lisch doesn't count because he was told he was only going to be here one year. It is very normal for a coach to turn over a roster when he takes over a program. It is taking place at UK right now. In reality, Majerus has lost two recruits. Losing two recruits isn't ideal, but it is also not unusual.

P.S. Have you watched Majerus coach a game from up close? He does very little yelling during games.

[slufanskip]

no argument that kids transfer. my argument is that 7 in two years isnt normal. yes it happens, but in the overall picture of division one basketball, 7 in two years is not "great frequency" or "at a lot of schools". that is not normal.

and i am not defending pitino or saying all coaches should coach like him as well. i will say if you want me pick between a coach inventing bulletin board material or a coach going around daily calling his own kid fat and slow. i guess i'll take the bulletin board material.

I'm not defending it and personally I don't like RM's tactics nor do I believe them to be necessary. However, comparing what you hear from Pitino during a game and what may go on behind closed doors at practice is silly. We have posters who sit behind the SLU bench, have any of you heard RM get nasty or vulgar with a player on the bench during a game? I doubt it. The man who is supposedly the best D1 coach of our generation (Coach K) is well known for being rude, tough and yes vulgar during practices. Our Military also feels that the same approach is a good one as it is also used there.

My point isn't whether it's wrong or right, but just pointing out that it's not uncommon among coaches. As ABomb said earlier, some people respond to it and some don't. ABomb said it works for him. In basic training it didn't work for me, in fact I found it ridiculous and ended up cleaning up a lot of pigeon crap off sidewalks because I couldn't help but smile when I was verbally abused.

I've heard UB wasn't the nicest guy in practice, certainly not as vulgar as RM, but he had his issues with players also. In the end all coaches have problems and issues.

Do I wish RM used a different tactic? Yes, I do. In fact I'm surprised that in todays world, we don't hear of more issues like the Sprewell one where he attacked his coach. In the end RM has to keep players, if he has too many that don't want to put up with his crap and leave, he won't win and he will have made his own bed. Time will tell.

[davidnark]

So Brett is going to leave SLU to attend SLU? Ironic?

[billiken_roy]

It is very normal for a coach to turn over a roster when he takes over a program. It is taking place at UK right now. In reality, Majerus has lost two recruits. Losing two recruits isn't ideal, but it is also not unusual.

kentucky alone is not proof. but if your claim "it is very normal for a coach to turn over a roster" is true, well then of the 27 schools that just changed coaches in the last 4 months or so, you are saying the majority will have at least 7 players leave the team over the next two seasons. i cant wait to see that play out.

and daniel lisch does count rickma gave him a spot. and rickma took it away.

[slufanskip]

kentucky alone is not proof. but if your claim "it is very normal for a coach to turn over a roster" is true, well then of the 27 schools that just changed coaches in the last 4 months or so, you are saying the majority will have at least 7 players leave the team over the next two seasons. i cant wait to see that play out.

and daniel lisch does count rickma gave him a spot. and rickma took it away.

Just the fact that you count Daniel shows your bias. He was a one year gift from RM.

I can tell you this RM should be gone if he's not smart enough to realize that doing that favor for the Lisch family was a big mistake on his part.

[davidnark]

and daniel lisch does count rickma gave him a spot. and rickma took it away.

Roy you lose ALL credibility with this statement. The day Majerus announced he was giving Lisch a spot he made it very clear that it was a one-year deal.

[aj_arete]

Pitino like many major D-1 coaches has a huge ego, is controlling and has a temper. He has been known for some unique ways to fire up his team. One of them has been to fabricate quotes from opposing team players and blow them up newspaper style to fire up his kids. By this I mean he has had negative quotes made up from opposing teams' players attributing negative things said about Pitino's kids and their team. The story of it is that none of them are true. He tells his kids that the opposing team said all these terrible things about his kids, and he makes them all look real in newspaper style and he never tells his kids they aren't true. What about the opposing teams kids and their reputations? I have some good Pitino stories. I find it hard to believe that if Pitino were SLU's coach that you wouldn't be discussing his recently highly publicized personal indescretions because you have discussed off the court issues with other coaches.

I think your negative bias towards Majerus has been showing quite a bit. Kids transfer with great frequency at a lot of schools, not just SLU and not just under Majerus.

Plenty of players transfer for various reasons. I also have no problem with a coach being hard-nosed and honest with players IF it is in private. In regards to Brett Thompson, I'm in the camp that believes that he isn't mentally tough enough to deal with the rigors of college basketball.

However as I've stated before, I do not like what I've seen from Majerus in his treatment of players. It looks like a few more people on here are seeing the light. Have other coaches being successful with his tactics? Yes. Are most SUCCESSFUL college coaches today treat players like him? No. I can only think of Bobby Knight.

[ACE]

kentucky alone is not proof. but if your claim "it is very normal for a coach to turn over a roster" is true, well then of the 27 schools that just changed coaches in the last 4 months or so, you are saying the majority will have at least 7 players leave the team over the next two seasons. i cant wait to see that play out.

and daniel lisch does count rickma gave him a spot. and rickma took it away.

That last statement is ridiculous. Majerus did the kid and his family a favor. Where were the other Division I offers for Daniel?

[billiken_roy]

That last statement is ridiculous. Majerus did the kid and his family a favor. Where were the other Division I offers for Daniel?

saint louis university (not rickma, as i am convinced daniel lisch was not rickma's idea) did not do the lisch's any favors with the daniel one year scholarship. and it was not a good decision on the lisch's part to take the deal if it was truly clearly defined as a one year deal (which i think the deal was defined as for one year only.)

to think that from an academic standpoint daniel got great benefits from a freshman year at saint louis university is naive. i seriously doubt future employment suitors are going to care one bit that he has 30 credit hours from slu. all they will care about is where he indeed got his final degree from. so there was no favor from that stand point as well.