Liddell Versus Lisch

[thetorch]

Reading the tip off club thread I got the feeling from a couple posters that they thought Lisch is a better player than Liddell.

I don't mean to disparage either of them but Liddell is a superior player and talent hands down. If anything Liddell is to Claggett as Lisch is to Highmark.

Lisch is really great but I have my doubts whether he can be our primary ballhandler. I've seen nothing on the court to lead me otherwise. If he was a capable pg or better than our other options, Liddell and Polk I think he would have been playing there all along. Now granted he played hurt all last year but I thought his defensive effort trailed off from his freshman year. I watched all the games I never saw him break down a press, at least no better than Polk or Liddell did.

Liddell was our MVP last year. He was the catalyst on the court. We won when he did well. I don't know if he is a true pg either but he did at least a fair job last season. His shooting accuracy increased to the point where he became at least an equal to Lisch. While Lisch is a good one on one player Liddell just beats him with better athleticism. Liddells TO #s were not very good, but he had the ball in his hand more often. Give lisch that responsibilty and I think the #s reverse themselves. Liddell gets no credit for his defense, I don't know why. He may not be a shutdown one on one guy but his ability to get into passing lanes and block shots gives him a lot of value on the defensive end.

This year as was last year when we need a big play the ball belongs in Tommie's hands. I want him making the decision every time. Lisch while very good is still a complementary player.

[Major Majerus]

Generally, when the game's on the line, and there is only one option, it makes it easy for the defense and hard for the offense. When we had Marque, it seemed to work because he had the handle and moves to always get to the basket. Lisch does very well in that spot, as does Tommie...as long as it's not predictable. TL has strengths that Clags never had, and KL has strengths that Highmark never had. This is the best backcourt we've had since I've watched from the 70s, imho, although I wish TL was playing 3... Still, they have 2 years to go under the great teacher, so I'm just watching with interest now.

[Majerus Magic]

Reading the tip off club thread I got the feeling from a couple posters that they thought Lisch is a better player than Liddell.

I don't mean to disparage either of them but Liddell is a superior player and talent hands down. If anything Liddell is to Claggett as Lisch is to Highmark.

Lisch is really great but I have my doubts whether he can be our primary ballhandler. I've seen nothing on the court to lead me otherwise. If he was a capable pg or better than our other options, Liddell and Polk I think he would have been playing there all along. Now granted he played hurt all last year but I thought his defensive effort trailed off from his freshman year. I watched all the games I never saw him break down a press, at least no better than Polk or Liddell did.

Liddell was our MVP last year. He was the catalyst on the court. We won when he did well. I don't know if he is a true pg either but he did at least a fair job last season. His shooting accuracy increased to the point where he became at least an equal to Lisch. While Lisch is a good one on one player Liddell just beats him with better athleticism. Liddells TO #s were not very good, but he had the ball in his hand more often. Give lisch that responsibilty and I think the #s reverse themselves. Liddell gets no credit for his defense, I don't know why. He may not be a shutdown one on one guy but his ability to get into passing lanes and block shots gives him a lot of value on the defensive end.

This year as was last year when we need a big play the ball belongs in Tommie's hands. I want him making the decision every time. Lisch while very good is still a complementary player.

I would take a team of Kevin's over a team of Tommie anyday

[Band Man]

I would take a team of Kevin's over a team of Tommie anyday

I'm going to have to disagree with you there and side with torch...Tommie is a superior athlete to Kevin. Although last year I did see some improvement with Lisch as far as his ability to slash to the basket, he still doesn't have nearly the ability that Tommie does in that respect. Tommie can take anybody one on one. He is deceptively quick with the ball, and he has an explosive first step that is nearly impossible to defend against. Furthermore, his leaping ability and length make him an all around game changer. While Lisch can change the game with his defense and his oustide shot, Tommie can change the game with his defense (especially his ability to block shots), his shooting (which we can only hope continues to improve), his ability to get to the rim, his ability to finish with a momentum shifting dunk, and his ability to rebound. One thing that also goes unmentioned a lot with Tommie is his basketball sense when he's on the court...there were times last year that he seemed to be a step ahead of everybody else (perhaps that caused a few of his TO's).

Kevin is a very solid player and he'll prove that when all is said and done. However, if I had to take my choice, I'd take a team of Tommie's anyday.

[BIG BILL FAN]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there and side with torch...Tommie is a superior athlete to Kevin. Although last year I did see some improvement with Lisch as far as his ability to slash to the basket, he still doesn't have nearly the ability that Tommie does in that respect. Tommie can take anybody one on one. He is deceptively quick with the ball, and he has an explosive first step that is nearly impossible to defend against. Furthermore, his leaping ability and length make him an all around game changer. While Lisch can change the game with his defense and his oustide shot, Tommie can change the game with his defense (especially his ability to block shots), his shooting (which we can only hope continues to improve), his ability to get to the rim, his ability to finish with a momentum shifting dunk, and his ability to rebound. One thing that also goes unmentioned a lot with Tommie is his basketball sense when he's on the court...there were times last year that he seemed to be a step ahead of everybody else (perhaps that caused a few of his TO's).

Kevin is a very solid player and he'll prove that when all is said and done. However, if I had to take my choice, I'd take a team of Tommie's anyday.

We are talking about basketball players, not just athletes. I think both players our outstanding, however Kevin is a far superior ball handler than Tommie ( not even close). Kevin is also a superior defender.

[brianstl]

Tommie has more tools than Kevin. Kevin gets far more out of his talent than Tommie does. Kevin right now is the smarter player on the court and by far the harder worker off the court. I am not saying that Tommie doesn't work hard, but he just doesn't come close to putting in the time Kevin does. Also, I am not saying Tommie is not smart, but he he does have his share of mental breakdowns on the court.

Right now I would take Kevin over Tommie and it really wouldn't be that hard of a choice.

[billiken_roy]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there and side with torch...Tommie is a superior athlete to Kevin. Although last year I did see some improvement with Lisch as far as his ability to slash to the basket, he still doesn't have nearly the ability that Tommie does in that respect. Tommie can take anybody one on one. He is deceptively quick with the ball, and he has an explosive first step that is nearly impossible to defend against. Furthermore, his leaping ability and length make him an all around game changer. While Lisch can change the game with his defense and his oustide shot, Tommie can change the game with his defense (especially his ability to block shots), his shooting (which we can only hope continues to improve), his ability to get to the rim, his ability to finish with a momentum shifting dunk, and his ability to rebound. One thing that also goes unmentioned a lot with Tommie is his basketball sense when he's on the court...there were times last year that he seemed to be a step ahead of everybody else (perhaps that caused a few of his TO's).

Kevin is a very solid player and he'll prove that when all is said and done. However, if I had to take my choice, I'd take a team of Tommie's anyday.

this is a very silly thread. it is like asking which slice of prime rib at kries' is better.

that said, there is no argument about liddell's athleticism. probably the only billiken in the last 20 years to compare is hughes. liddell is a threat for making espn top 10 every night. and if he finally starts getting a little more selfish he just very well might explode over the next two years and be considered the most exciting billiken ever.

there is also no arguing the reliability, effort and refined basketball skills of kevin lisch. imo there has been no better complete package than lisch highmark at his best was surpassed by lisch long ago. claggett couldnt play defense or handle the ball like lisch. love never had kevin's handle. hughes and perry couldnt shoot with kevn. jeffers couldnt dribble and pass like kevin. probably the closest complete billiken guard to kevin in my lifetime as a billiken fan would be waldman, however h tended to get sloppy with his game at times. kevin when in the game is locked in 100% of the time.

basically i think it comes down to do you want john stockton or allen iverson. both are sure fire hall of famers, but both have totally different games and abilities to lift the team up. i think they are a perfect compliment for each other.

[NH]

I agree If I could only have one on my team I would pick liddell anyday. However, I think they complement each other so well on the floor that it iis ofteen hard to dtermine who is the better player. Anything where tommie doesnt shine lisch does and vice-versa. I think they both could play and in almost all cases start at any D1 school.

[NH]

We are talking about basketball players, not just athletes. I think both players our outstanding, however Kevin is a far superior ball handler than Tommie ( not even close). Kevin is also a superior defender.

I wouldnt say by far. Lisch is shorter and has much shorter arms which makes it easier to dribble. Liddel has good ballhadling skills just get careless

[Archy McNally]

This question is like asking who is better: Clags or Waldman. They are so completely different, it is too hard to tell. I am not sure who I would choose if I had to start a team and pick one of them. I call it a tie.

[jimbofive]

I would truly call it a tie. I would say it to them together or individually. I would say it to their parents, to their coach, and to you guys. I will say that Tommie has the potential to be better, given his athletic gifts. It will be a LONG time before we see a backcourt like these two again, even w/ Majerus. I think if they both are healthy this year, you will see nearly identical numbers, w/ Tommie given the edge in rebounding, and Kevin in assists and turnovers. This was the case last year except that Tommie shot a better pct from the field and 3-point land. Taking nothing away from Tommie (amazing numbers), Kevin was hindered by several abysmal shooting performances when his his hand was ripped open like a generic trashbag at an anvil factory.

Flat out tie, for now. If I had to pick one to go pro, it would be Tommie. However, I think that a team willing to take a chance on a poor man's Steve Nash could easily snap up Kevin late in the 2nd round. Time will tell.

[MusicCityBilliken]

This question is like asking who is better: Clags or Waldman. They are so completely different, it is too hard to tell. I am not sure who I would choose if I had to start a team and pick one of them. I call it a tie.

This is a dumb discussion. Two completely different types of players.

The problem is we have so many weak holes on the team that both Tommie and Kevin may not play their natural positions. I don't think Kevin is the 1, he should be the 2. This will allow him to bomb away. Also, I love Tommie play the 3 where we we see his athleticism really shine.

Its a shame they are both not sophs this year to be able to take better advantage of RM recruiting. This 08 class nicely addresses the 4 and 5 and we have a Marque Perry type 1 coming in. Unfortunately these players will be freshmen when both Tommie and Kevin are seniors.

[brianstl]

I would truly call it a tie. I would say it to them together or individually. I would say it to their parents, to their coach, and to you guys. I will say that Tommie has the potential to be better, given his athletic gifts. It will be a LONG time before we see a backcourt like these two again, even w/ Majerus. I think if they both are healthy this year, you will see nearly identical numbers, w/ Tommie given the edge in rebounding, and Kevin in assists and turnovers. This was the case last year except that Tommie shot a better pct from the field and 3-point land. Taking nothing away from Tommie (amazing numbers), Kevin was hindered by several abysmal shooting performances when his his hand was ripped open like a generic trashbag at an anvil factory.

Flat out tie, for now. If I had to pick one to go pro, it would be Tommie. However, I think that a team willing to take a chance on a poor man's Steve Nash could easily snap up Kevin late in the 2nd round. Time will tell.

Tommie'e rebounding is something I am guilty of over looking at times. That is a huge part of his game and is very important to this team. He is not what you think of when you think of guys that get rebounds, but he uses his athletic ability and smarts to get in position for rebounds. He sees the court so well. I think that even gets me more frustrated with his sometimes sloppy ball handling.

[Postcard]

I would take a team of Kevin's over a team of Tommie anyday

You would probably prefer a team of Stubby Clapps over a team of Juan Encarnacions because Stubby would hustle and get his uniform dirty. I'll take the better talent every time.

[kshoe]

Reading the tip off club thread I got the feeling from a couple posters that they thought Lisch is a better player than Liddell.

I don't mean to disparage either of them but Liddell is a superior player and talent hands down. If anything Liddell is to Claggett as Lisch is to Highmark.

Lisch is really great but I have my doubts whether he can be our primary ballhandler. I've seen nothing on the court to lead me otherwise. If he was a capable pg or better than our other options, Liddell and Polk I think he would have been playing there all along. Now granted he played hurt all last year but I thought his defensive effort trailed off from his freshman year. I watched all the games I never saw him break down a press, at least no better than Polk or Liddell did.

Liddell was our MVP last year. He was the catalyst on the court. We won when he did well. I don't know if he is a true pg either but he did at least a fair job last season. His shooting accuracy increased to the point where he became at least an equal to Lisch. While Lisch is a good one on one player Liddell just beats him with better athleticism. Liddells TO #s were not very good, but he had the ball in his hand more often. Give lisch that responsibilty and I think the #s reverse themselves. Liddell gets no credit for his defense, I don't know why. He may not be a shutdown one on one guy but his ability to get into passing lanes and block shots gives him a lot of value on the defensive end.

This year as was last year when we need a big play the ball belongs in Tommie's hands. I want him making the decision every time. Lisch while very good is still a complementary player.

What is the point in having a discussion about your two best players and asking which is better. By definition, even a compliment of one player will come off as a rip of another player.

[jimbofive]

What is the point in having a discussion about your two best players and asking which is better. By definition, even a compliment of one player will come off as a rip of another player.

I hope they see this thread and get pissed and both make 1st team all-conference just to spite us and each other. Actually, scratch that. Majerus would take them out for sno cones and a personal pan pizza at Pizza Hut® to celebrate and the NCAA would shut the program down.

[Billiken Rich]

You would probably prefer a team of Stubby Clapps over a team of Juan Encarnacions because Stubby would hustle and get his uniform dirty. I'll take the better talent every time.

I agree in large part. I think Tommie is that superior athlete. I also would rate Kevin over Stubby (whoever the hell he is) or Rex Hudler.

I think the image of Tommie getting his pocket picked on the last play of whatever game that was, is burned into our brains and given way too much weight as is the image of Kevin struggling to shoot while wearing an oven mit.

This is a goofy thread, Especially given that Majerus will be riding both of them like Christmas ponies given their skills and his history of expecting the best from the best. They are both going to need head bands to keep the Magi's spit out of their faces

[slu72]

I agree in large part. I think Tommie is that superior athlete. I also would rate Kevin over Stubby (whoever the hell he is) or Rex Hudler.

I think the image of Tommie getting his pocket picked on the last play of whatever game that was, is burned into our brains and given way too much weight as is the image of Kevin struggling to shoot while wearing an oven mit.

This is a goofy thread, Especially given that Majerus will be riding both of them like Christmas ponies given their skills and his history of expecting the best from the best. They are both going to need head bands to keep the Magi's spit out of their faces

What a stupid thread. We are just fortunate to have these two great players. Different but complement each other so well. I just hope there is an NCAA bid in their future before they graduate. God knows they deserve it and will work for it. Again, stupid thread, like a lot of them lately. Has the board been pirated by 8th graders?

[jimbofive]

I agree in large part. I think Tommie is that superior athlete. I also would rate Kevin over Stubby (whoever the hell he is) or Rex Hudler.

I think the image of Tommie getting his pocket picked on the last play of whatever game that was, is burned into our brains and given way too much weight as is the image of Kevin struggling to shoot while wearing an oven mit.

This is a goofy thread, Especially given that Majerus will be riding both of them like Christmas ponies given their skills and his history of expecting the best from the best. They are both going to need head bands to keep the Magi's spit out of their faces

I dunno, as several have stated, Kevin already gets the most out of his ability (or at least he appears to). The only area I can see Majerus riding him on is his defense. While certainly not a weak point, I think his defensive intensity did drop from his freshman year. Tommie on the other end, I think Majerus will beat him down to the ground constantly over turnovers and lackadaisical play at times. He will challenge him to take control of this team, although I don't think you can really ask either Lisch or Liddell to do that, as they are so complimentary and truly equal in talent. I think they've done a great job as leaders so far (you can only do so much with so little). I don't find it surprising at all that he considers Kevin one of his favorites already, because Kevin's already doing (almost) all that he can. It's no knock on Tommie, because some people just need someone to come down on them to get motivated (i.e. Brad's benching him his freshman year), but I think he's the one that Majerus will really adopt as his project. In the end they're both going to be Billiken greats forever.

[brianstl]

What a stupid thread. We are just fortunate to have these two great players. Different but complement each other so well. I just hope there is an NCAA bid in their future before they graduate. God knows they deserve it and will work for it. Again, stupid thread, like a lot of them lately. Has the board been pirated by 8th graders?

Stupid thread line coming from the guy who has started some of the most pointless threads ever. 72 I like you on here, but you should be the last one calling a thread on here stupid. Don't worry I put myself in that same group as I put you into when it comes to that.

[NashvilleBilliken]

What a stupid thread. We are just fortunate to have these two great players. Different but complement each other so well. I just hope there is an NCAA bid in their future before they graduate. God knows they deserve it and will work for it. Again, stupid thread, like a lot of them lately. Has the board been pirated by 8th graders?

Are you f'ing kidding me '72? This is probably the best billiken basketball related discussion we've had since last season. I realize you haven't been able to ***** enough lately since you can't complain about Soderberg, but your post is uncalled for.

[billiken_roy]

You would probably prefer a team of Stubby Clapps over a team of Juan Encarnacions because Stubby would hustle and get his uniform dirty. I'll take the better talent every time.

congrats postcard. you win the worst slap award for the day. lisch is by no means "stubby clapp". if we ever had a stubby clapp, it might have been someone like drejaj or ross varner who had to play all out to even compete. kevin lisch is far far too talented to be compared as such.

while i admit i dont follow the cardinals all that close, i dont think liddell and encarcion is a fair comparision as well. tommie plays hard, is asked and does the dirty work rebounding. and last year all in all was very consistent in his performance. there was a stretch he carried the team for a number of games. i dont think encarcion has ever carried anything.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Superman or Batman? That's all I have to say.

[slu72]

Stupid thread line coming from the guy who has started some of the most pointless threads ever. 72 I like you on here, but you should be the last one calling a thread on here stupid. Don't worry I put myself in that same group as I put you into when it comes to that.

OK, Stlbrian, give me one example of a stupid thread...just one.

[brianstl]

OK, Stlbrian, give me one example of a stupid thread...just one.

Take your pick of any of your ***** and moan threads from over the last year. Where you just bitched and moaned. No discussion about any basketball related issues or the way to make things better. It was just ***** and moan.

I am just as guilty of starting some bad threads. I am no angel. But, I think you are off base on this one. This was a pretty good discussion about our two best players strengths and weaknesses. I didn't think it was rip session on Kevin or Tommie III Sticks.