troy on 590 the fan

[willie]

9 hours ago, thetorch said:

If we made coaching changes by board consensus Soderberg would be entering his 22nd season as HC of the Billikens and the highlight of our non conference schedule would be a home and home series with SIUE, our games played at West Pine.

Your original statement was that the next step down in donors don't want Ford. 

[Lord Elrond]

11 hours ago, TheChosenOne said:

Absent the contract, did folks actually think Ford was deserving of being fired? I was disappointed with last season and questioned the future of the team, but would not have supported firing Ford without some exciting candidate essentially lined up that would not be around down the line. I don’t know his contract, but think asking folks to buy him out in the spring wouldn’t get much support. Six months from now that might be a different discussion.

Absent the contract buyout I think a strong case could be made for firing Travis Ford last year. However, the contract buyout existed, and no one individual or group of individuals with the cash to make that happen could be found. I also think it’s fair to say that many big money donors would not have supported firing Travis Ford even if someone else would have come up with the cash. No AD would ever go against the guys who have put big money checks in his hands, especially if he thinks he needs to go to those same people for money for any other new project that may come along.  The point has been made that any new coach is not a lock to succeed, and I couldn’t agree more. You take your chances, no guarantee at all, and I think some of those who wanted a new coach overlooked that.  If you look at all the new hires that were praised by the media as great hiring, 75% of them will be fired in 5-6 years and it will be praised as a good thing by the same media people.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Lord Elrond

[billikenfan05]

9 hours ago, thetorch said:

Yes, most certainly.  After the SIUE loss he should have been gone.

This past offseason was essentially the same one that got Soderberg fired.  Both teams had veteran led squads that while on their face had a nice season, 20 wins, neither met expectations.

When Soderberg was fired Biondi saw that the ceiling was reached.  He had his best team, the most talent, and still underachieved.  Biondi fired him, despite protests from the big donors &  the AD Levick who had Soderberg's next contract signed and waiting on Biondi's desk for his approval.

Ford should have been looked at the same way.  This was his best team, most talent, and they didn't sniff an NCAA tourney.  This is Ford's ceiling, this is as good as it is going to get.  Problem was he had a huge buyout that no one wanted to pay.  A huge buyout should never be a reason for not firing someone.  

Excuses were made, if this didn't happen or if this had happened we would have made the tournament.  So bring back Ford.  One of these years his luck will change.  It won't.  We've made those excuses every season.  This is what he is.

The only difference between Ford and Soderberg is Ford is making about 1.8 mil more than Soderberg.  Which should be even more of an impetus to firing him.

We give Ford one more year.  For what?  He lost his best players?  We have no ability to get high level transfers?  His HS recruiting has taken a dive.  His staff left in droves.  We are going to end up keeping him another year for a season that won't be a success, and then end up letting him go after this one.  Why bother keeping him this season?  

The only reason is that buyout that no one wants to pay.  If Biondi was still in charge the person that gave him that huge contract wouldn't be employed by SLU, and neither would Ford.

This is a well written post and argument. I don’t know if it has CMV or the off-season has. 

[Brighton]

46 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

It's been my experience in St. Louis that old money runs this town, not just the SLU athletic department.  There aren't enough rich people under the age of 60 to change how business is done.  And very few of them are sports fans.

I hear the same stagnation arguments about wealthy decision makers in the St Louis metro area in general as I read every week on this message board.  I don't think that's a coincidence.  There's a lot of overlap between the two groups. 

What I hear some MBMs saying without saying it is this:  I wish there were wealthy Gen Xers with new ideas in leadership positions.  Some of you guys went to elite private schools.  Where are these people?

In Chicago or on the coasts.

[ACE]

It's disingenuous to rewrite history by saying Ford's tenure has been like Soderberg. In the four seasons prior to his final season, Sodie never sniffed the Dance and never did throughout his tenure. Also, his best seasons were primarily with Romar's players, while Ford had to build from scratch. The four seasons prior to Ford's most recent disappointing season look much different than Sodie's. Made the Dance in 2019; followed by another in which they were playing well down the stretch and on the NCAA bubble when the conference tournament was cancelled due to COVID; the following season cracked the Top 25 and were seemingly a lock for an at-large big, when COVID derailed that season with a long pause, still finished the last four out of the Dance; Following year, entered season as a favorite to make the Dance, preseason player of the year Perk goes out for the year in exhibition game. He built four rosters that were NCAA contenders - there aren't a lot of four year stretches in SLU history when you can say that. It was not unreasonable to give Ford one more season following one disappointment (Soderberg also never had to deal with COVID and the effects it had on two seasons).

Ford has previously proven that he can recruit at this job, BUT the landscape has changed with NIL and the portal and I have serious doubts about his future.  I'm not very optimistic about this season and I hope to be proven wrong. I don't think recruiting went very well in the spring and looking ahead to next season, the fact that we have no commitments for next year is also concerning. I think there is a decent chance Ford will be gone after this season and I would be fine with a change, unless this team exceeds expectations by getting big contributions from a couple of the freshmen. I will keep an open mind, will enjoy the journey of watching this team play and hope to be surprised.

So these are my two key questions... what non-P6 programs are really killing it on the recruiting front in this new era of NIL and free agency? 

Who is the ideal next head coach? 

Whoever the next coach is, it seems that for any coach moving forward, this is a much more complicated environment than what it used to be (especially for the non P6 programs). A program needs to raise a lot of NIL and those efforts need to be aligned with the head coach. It seems programs really need a general manager in addition to a coach. Will we have those things fully developed by the time the next coach is hired?

Finally, we can fixate on Ford or whoever the next coach is going to be, but I'm afraid forces much bigger than who the coach is will continue to stack the deck against programs like SLU. I will be interested over the next few years which non-P6 programs who have a similar profile and history to SLU will be able to crack the code. I'm afraid the answer will be very few and that's a depressing thought - not only for my interest in SLU hoops, but for college basketball as a whole.

[Pistol]

9 hours ago, thetorch said:

The only reason is that buyout that no one wants to pay.  If Biondi was still in charge the person that gave him that huge contract wouldn't be employed by SLU, and neither would Ford.

The athletic department was mostly ignored by Biondi during his entire tenure as president. He wouldn't have acted on Soderberg without pressure and financial commitments from donors. Soderberg had a small buyout, nowhere near what would be required to buy Ford out.

I watched the athletic department run like a D-III department for four years and Biondi didn't even seem aware, let alone interested in making moves. Biondi being president today would make no difference. They do what the donors want.

[billiken_roy]

from my perspective of reading the recent mbm posts here, what seems to be mostly ignored is the landscape and workings of Division one basketball has changed dramatically.   When i was emphatic we needed ford, ford had the one trait of a college basketball coach that slu history has been weak.   Recruiting.  While of course he wasnt bringing in lottery picks, he was overall very successful in giving us a roster that had more top to bottom talent that pretty much any coach had brought to the billikens since i became a rabid fan in 1977 (freshman year at SLU)  

what ford seemed to lack was an ability to consistently develop talent, prepare for a game (practice coach) and manage a game.  far too often a player graduated after 4 years and the difference between freshman and senior year was little if any.   i think the best example of that was french and goodwin.   both came in as tremendous freshmen and both left as all time greats, but honestly, there wasnt a great deal of improvement other than natural maturity over their billiken career.   it is hard to think of a name let alone a lot of names of players that developed caompares to the example of any of rickma's players.   as to practice coach, my gosh how many games over ford's tenure, did we come out seemingly clueless?   game coach let's go back and think of the games that we let double digit leads evaporate in the last 10 minutes of a game.  

still i was all in on ford simply because he brought us the talent that might be self developing, might be so talented they overcame the game and practice shortcomings.   so i saw no reason to let that get away at least we had players that seemed could compete year in and year out and gave us a chance.  

but now, everything in the ncaa is very fast changing.   this summer has been a recruiting nightmare for the billikens from my perspective.   seems like getting any local or even just american players now is quite the feat.   our roster seems to speak multiple languages now.  not that anything is wrong with that, but how is the fan base going to get excited about that?   plus, apparently some of these new players seem to be having NCAA clearing issues.  and we as fans are losing enthusiasm because we dont know WTH we got since all these players are complete unknowns.   how did this happen?   did ford get struck by dumb and lazy lightning?

NIL happened.  liberal transfer rules came to be.  by all reports, the first thing players ask now is "how much money will i make?" or "can you guarantee me more playing time?"  players today transfer in and out without a second thought due to their current situation looking difficult and they move on to a new opportunity.   SLU seems to be stuck in the recent past and doesnt want to use the checkbook or develop the network of more new boosters to employ according the the NIL rules (we all know in reality it is just pay to play but anyway).  

so all in all, we better find a coach that knows how to develop talent, knows how to prepare talent and know the next opponent and knows how to use the talent and knowledge to finish a game.   Is that ford?   well we all hope so.  but nothing we have seen imo says he is the guy.   i am fine with "one more year" to show us.  but man, it sure doesnt look promising.  i know we have had years with less talent.  but in those years there was no expectations and we werent coming off a biting stinging season like last year.  plus we werent competing in a landscape where our opponents could buy their way to a complete turnaround in one year. 

 how many of you were excited to hear we might go through the season with a 6'3" relatively thin center who hadnt played the inside since high school?  i dont care how great of an athlete terrance is, the thought of him succeeding against holmes doesnt exactly give me hope.  my point is why did we sit pat with basically what we had with a roster of players that sat the bench mostly or with a handful of unknown recruits?   the answer is imo it was all we had and could get.  so the recruiting edge ford had, appears to be gone.   so if he cant recruit at his previous level anymore, he better become a real old time coach.   

i say ford gets a year.   he needs to have reasonable success AND he needs to have at least some incoming talent that we all would have hope things are going to get better.  (how many of you when asked by family and friends, "how will the billikens be this year?" are as enthusiastic this year as you were a year ago when asked that?)   if these two happenings dont happen, i think it's time to move on.   at least get a coach that can old school coach.   Rickma isnt out there, but surely somewhere out there is someone that can bring back rickma coaching details and approach.  that is what we need now more than ever because i dont think we will ever compete with the checkbooks of the big boys.   the powers to be at SLU are never going to the the schools that go out and buy the success we all want.  

what is more concerning, is that it sure seems to me that these same powers to be by pretty much sitting on their hands are sending the signal they couldnt care less about us the fans.  

[TheA_Bomb]

Not sure if ya'll know but I wanted Ford gone last season.  It wasn't until after this off season and the Robertson interview that I realize the cost is too great. Maybe after this season the Powers that Be (PtB) will be fed up enough to write a check.  Sitting in a mausoleum with your name on it losing to directional schools can be a good motivator. 

Ideal Coach:

Chris Mack

Name, been there, done that in the Midwest at a catholic school

Next level:

Pat Kelsey 

Midwest experience,  killing it at low major

Interesting candidate:

Blake Ahearn 

Can be hired for less,  difference in pay sent to NIL. Sells player development and preparation for the league. Assuming he's a good judge of talent can identify players to fit a system. 

 

I'm considering conducting an analysis of the operational environment to develop the strategy I think SLU needs to implement.  I think SLU is lacking direction right now.  It's a listless ship about to crash into the rocks. 

 

[billikenfan05]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

from my perspective of reading the recent mbm posts here, what seems to be mostly ignored is the landscape and workings of Division one basketball has changed dramatically.   When i was emphatic we needed ford, ford had the one trait of a college basketball coach that slu history has been weak.   Recruiting.  While of course he wasnt bringing in lottery picks, he was overall very successful in giving us a roster that had more top to bottom talent that pretty much any coach had brought to the billikens since i became a rabid fan in 1977 (freshman year at SLU)  

what ford seemed to lack was an ability to consistently develop talent, prepare for a game (practice coach) and manage a game.  far too often a player graduated after 4 years and the difference between freshman and senior year was little if any.   i think the best example of that was french and goodwin.   both came in as tremendous freshmen and both left as all time greats, but honestly, there wasnt a great deal of improvement other than natural maturity over their billiken career.   it is hard to think of a name let alone a lot of names of players that developed caompares to the example of any of rickma's players.   as to practice coach, my gosh how many games over ford's tenure, did we come out seemingly clueless?   game coach let's go back and think of the games that we let double digit leads evaporate in the last 10 minutes of a game.  

still i was all in on ford simply because he brought us the talent that might be self developing, might be so talented they overcame the game and practice shortcomings.   so i saw no reason to let that get away at least we had players that seemed could compete year in and year out and gave us a chance.  

but now, everything in the ncaa is very fast changing.   this summer has been a recruiting nightmare for the billikens from my perspective.   seems like getting any local or even just american players now is quite the feat.   our roster seems to speak multiple languages now.  not that anything is wrong with that, but how is the fan base going to get excited about that?   plus, apparently some of these new players seem to be having NCAA clearing issues.  and we as fans are losing enthusiasm because we dont know WTH we got since all these players are complete unknowns.   how did this happen?   did ford get struck by dumb and lazy lightning?

NIL happened.  liberal transfer rules came to be.  by all reports, the first thing players ask now is "how much money will i make?" or "can you guarantee me more playing time?"  players today transfer in and out without a second thought due to their current situation looking difficult and they move on to a new opportunity.   SLU seems to be stuck in the recent past and doesnt want to use the checkbook or develop the network of more new boosters to employ according the the NIL rules (we all know in reality it is just pay to play but anyway).  

so all in all, we better find a coach that knows how to develop talent, knows how to prepare talent and know the next opponent and knows how to use the talent and knowledge to finish a game.   Is that ford?   well we all hope so.  but nothing we have seen imo says he is the guy.   i am fine with "one more year" to show us.  but man, it sure doesnt look promising.  i know we have had years with less talent.  but in those years there was no expectations and we werent coming off a biting stinging season like last year.  plus we werent competing in a landscape where our opponents could buy their way to a complete turnaround in one year. 

 how many of you were excited to hear we might go through the season with a 6'3" relatively thin center who hadnt played the inside since high school?  i dont care how great of an athlete terrance is, the thought of him succeeding against holmes doesnt exactly give me hope.  my point is why did we sit pat with basically what we had with a roster of players that sat the bench mostly or with a handful of unknown recruits?   the answer is imo it was all we had and could get.  so the recruiting edge ford had, appears to be gone.   so if he cant recruit at his previous level anymore, he better become a real old time coach.   

i say ford gets a year.   he needs to have reasonable success AND he needs to have at least some incoming talent that we all would have hope things are going to get better.  (how many of you when asked by family and friends, "how will the billikens be this year?" are as enthusiastic this year as you were a year ago when asked that?)   if these two happenings dont happen, i think it's time to move on.   at least get a coach that can old school coach.   Rickma isnt out there, but surely somewhere out there is someone that can bring back rickma coaching details and approach.  that is what we need now more than ever because i dont think we will ever compete with the checkbooks of the big boys.   the powers to be at SLU are never going to the the schools that go out and buy the success we all want.  

what is more concerning, is that it sure seems to me that these same powers to be by pretty much sitting on their hands are sending the signal they couldnt care less about us the fans.  

Here's the issue. You still back May right? He's been reactionary on EVERY change in the landscape of College Basketball. I would honestly love him 10000% if he was the Senior Associate Athletics Director/External Relations. He's not the guy to navigate this department through this new world of College Athletics that changes every few months. Soccer/WBB have done really good things under him, but at the end of the day they rely on Men's Basketball revenue to thrive.

[wgstl]

2 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

Here's the issue. You still back May right? He's been reactionary on EVERY change in the landscape of College Basketball. I would honestly love him 10000% if he was the Senior Associate Athletics Director/External Relations. He's not the guy to navigate this department through this new world of College Athletics that changes every few months. Soccer/WBB have done really good things under him, but at the end of the day they rely on Men's Basketball revenue to thrive.

Schools are starting to do GM positions, would love to get a GM to watch over the basketball program while May oversees all other programs. 

[billikenfan05]

2 minutes ago, wgstl said:

Schools are starting to do GM positions, would love to get a GM to watch over the basketball program while May oversees all other programs. 

Justin Tatum.....Come home.

[billiken_roy]

46 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

Here's the issue. You still back May right? He's been reactionary on EVERY change in the landscape of College Basketball. I would honestly love him 10000% if he was the Senior Associate Athletics Director/External Relations. He's not the guy to navigate this department through this new world of College Athletics that changes every few months. Soccer/WBB have done really good things under him, but at the end of the day they rely on Men's Basketball revenue to thrive.

to place the blame on May is naive.   these final decisions are coming from higher up than May.   he may be making suggestions but the final decision isnt his i bet.

[billikenfan05]

3 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

to place the blame on May is naive.   these final decisions are coming from higher up than May.   he may be making suggestions but the final decision isnt his i bet.

I’ve seen and heard more out of the department than I wish I’d had. So don’t call me naive. 
 

If your AD isn’t able to convince the “higher ups”, they aren’t the right person. 

[billiken_roy]

Just now, billikenfan05 said:

If your AD isn’t able to convince the “higher ups”, they aren’t the right person. 

again  naive

[billikenfan05]

1 minute ago, billiken_roy said:

again  naive

Again, wrong adjective. I know more than I wish I did about the inner workings of the AD.

You can call me naive but you still think the people asking for your money every year are your friends. You should go to Hooters for dinner tonight and make friends with the girls there. 

[willie]

5 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

to place the blame on May is naive.   these final decisions are coming from higher up than May.   he may be making suggestions but the final decision isnt his i bet.

I don't agree with this. First of all I think May has done is doing a good job. Fred P and the BOT are supportive of May. Chris "Do what you want just pay for it". Fred or Joe Conrad are not micro managing the Athletic Department. 

[billiken_roy]

other than my season tickets cost, no one has asked me for money.   so once again you have shown your ignorance as it concerns me.   i will bet you when the day comes that Chris May is gone nothing changes to the radical degree you expect.   there is a reason he is still the AD.   someone likes him and that is likely because he is doing what he is directed to do.  so as i have told you countless times for a long long time, your anger is misplaced.   Chris May might have contributed to the problem with bad takes when asked, but the final decisions for big changes or adds are from above.  

[billiken_roy]

Just now, willie said:

I don't agree with this. First of all I think May has done is doing a good job. Fred P and the BOT are supportive of May. Chris "Do what you want just pay for it". Fred or Joe Conrad are not micro managing the Athletic Department. 

for smaller decisions they might say that but only because he is in sync with what they want.   as an example, you can bet if the BoT doesnt want a mini baseball stadium built but Chris May does, there will be no baseball stadium.

[billikenfan05]

Just now, billiken_roy said:

for smaller decisions they might say that but only because he is in sync with what they want.   as an example, you can bet if the BoT doesnt want a mini baseball stadium built but Chris May does, there will be no baseball stadium.

You have no proof of this. 

[willie]

1 minute ago, billiken_roy said:

for smaller decisions they might say that but only because he is in sync with what they want.   as an example, you can bet if the BoT doesnt want a mini baseball stadium built but Chris May does, there will be no baseball stadium.

No. Not if May can raise the money. 

[Pistol]

20 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

to place the blame on May is naive.   these final decisions are coming from higher up than May.   he may be making suggestions but the final decision isnt his i bet.

Final decisions on what? May is the decision maker for the Athletic Department. If there are big-time decisions that require approval from the president or board, or if there's a capital campaign that needs approval or whatever, that's when they get involved. But May runs the show in the AD, period. The same way it always has been at SLU. Presidents only get involved when they need to (or are pressured to). They don't have the time or desire to micromanage the AD.

[billiken_roy]

Just now, Pistol said:

Final decisions on what? May is the decision maker for the Athletic Department. If there are big-time decisions that require approval from the president or board, or if there's a capital campaign that needs approval or whatever, that's when they get involved. But May runs the show in the AD, period. The same way it always has been at SLU. Presidents only get involved when they need to (or are pressured to). They don't have the time or desire to micromanage the AD.

i agree he has authority up to a point.  but 05 wants to blame everything on may.   and i say the big decisions that are true difference makers are beyond his authority and he has to get approval from above.   sure if he can justify the likes of the champion center by finding the whales to pay for it, they would go along with it, but if he just says i want to build it, the higher ups will stop him.   same with changing complete focus on day to day operations.   no quicker way to get fired than to take that on himself.   

[willie]

15 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

for smaller decisions they might say that but only because he is in sync with what they want.   as an example, you can bet if the BoT doesnt want a mini baseball stadium built but Chris May does, there will be no baseball stadium.

The only thing the BOT would say is how are you going to pay for it? 

[TheA_Bomb]

B-Roy the AD messes up a lot of the little things and the big things. 

The social media presence is just blah. This looming issue with transfers/compliance is bad. Our previous issues with T9 investigations/due process. The issues with the band. The lack of direction in basketball. 

Also what I hear about the game experience is disconcerting in that it's uninspired and generic.

Good, there's been no NCAA troubles, women's sports have been OK. The Champions Center is nice. 

He's like Ford, just OK.

I have a negative view and I admit it's based on a bad experience at a event at UH MBB Gabe.  I paid went showed up, May was leaving no interaction.  It was lame and a waste of my time. 

I'm OK if they ask me for money they need to.  No one did.  So guess what I didn't give. 

[Pistol]

3 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i agree he has authority up to a point.  but 05 wants to blame everything on may.   and i say the big decisions that are true difference makers are beyond his authority and he has to get approval from above.   sure if he can justify the likes of the champion center by finding the whales to pay for it, they would go along with it, but if he just says i want to build it, the higher ups will stop him.   same with changing complete focus on day to day operations.   no quicker way to get fired than to take that on himself.   

May absolutely manages the day-to-day athletic department. I'm not even sure what else to say about that.

As for capital projects, I don't know of any department within the university that can sit down with the president and BoT, ask for 8 figures for a new building, and get it rubber stamped. May helped secure funding for the Champions Center and got it built. The more funding he needs from the university, the longer it's going to take and the more hoops he's going to have to jump through. That's how it works at any school in the country. I don't think it makes the trustees enemies of the AD.