HoosierBilliken Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 If for 2017/2018 season, we will have the following level of players; 1. Goodwin, Henriquez, Bess, French, Foreman, with Graves later on for conference play [all first tier players, yet not superstars?]. 2. Welmer [possible starter at times?] 3. Bishop, Moore, Roby, and Johnson [bench, yet decent contributors?] 4. Gillmann and Neufeld [bench, clean up minutes, practice people?] what could possibly be the reason we wouldn't be in post-season play? Am I right on evaluations above? What is the likely, or best hoped scenario of even adding more players for next season? Assistance would be greatly appreciated. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryB Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Lots of reason for optimism next year but I think most would agree the bench still needs an upgrade. Expect at least one or two more additions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 My gut tells me Bishop will transfer out. He knows he's not going to get significant minutes with what's coming in, especially after signing Graves. Neufeld should leave. He's way overmatched at this level. Remember when some one posted Duke had interest in him? Talk about your fake news. That could go for Reggie and interest from Duke as well. The Jim Crews propaganda machine must have generated those two whoppers. Gillman will probably stick around just because he's a SR. Hopefully, he pulls a Crawford and takes his degree this spring and decides to take early retirement or go to Lindenwood. You've got to think Ford's still looking to bring in a couple of more newbies for the real regular season in Nov '17. If he doesn't, then we've got to pay close attention to how Wellmer, Moore, and Johnson progress during A10 play. Their minutes should start to go way up over the next 3 months. Only 3 months until this 3 year nightmare of evil hoops is over. Whew, we can take anything for 3 months. Happy New Year all. Take solace in the fact it's only gonna get better, because Lord knows it can't get any worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 2 hours ago, HoosierBilliken said: If for 2017/2018 season, we will have the following level of players; 1. Goodwin, Henriquez, Bess, French, Foreman, with Graves later on for conference play [all first tier players, yet not superstars?]. 2. Welmer [possible starter at times?] 3. Bishop, Moore, Roby, and Johnson [bench, yet decent contributors?] 4. Gillmann and Neufeld [bench, clean up minutes, practice people?] what could possibly be the reason we wouldn't be in post-season play? Am I right on evaluations above? What is the likely, or best hoped scenario of even adding more players for next season? Assistance would be greatly appreciated. Regards the reason is your 2-4 is way over estimated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westy03 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Points 2-4 have managed to be the one of the worst teams in division 1 this year. Not sure they can give much quality off the bench Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 I'll still hold out hope for Wellmer, Johnson, and Moore. Afterall they are FR and it's not like they would be expected to contribute immediately. We'll see when the final bell has rung on this year just what we might have in these guys. Why I said, the most important thing to watch for over the A10 schedule is their development. Roby will likely hang around and provide us some solid backup this upcoming season. I call it our upcoming season, since this season is down the toilet and should be treated like spring training. Wellmer, in particular, is intriguing because he could be a matchup night mare for other teams if he becomes a consistent outside threat. He's never going to be your prototype A10 PF, much like Cody Ellis wasn't, but it would be nice to pull a 6'8" guy off the bench to create some havoc from the outside. So far, we've seen glimpses of that in him but only glimpses. Needs to be more consistency there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
For-DaLove Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 We only need to go 8 or so deep. I think we can put together 3 guys off the bench who can contribute enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 8 minutes ago, For-DaLove said: We only need to go 8 or so deep. I think we can put together 3 guys off the bench who can contribute enough. Agreed, but we still have to see what we've got in Johnson, Moore, and Wellmer. I do think Roby might be a valid bench option given the better talent around him. Still, would like to see Ford land us a 6'10 + guy in the spring. A Kenny Brown clone would be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVBilliken Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Agree there will likely be at least one addition in the Spring signing period. Believe that Welmer, Roby, Moore and Johnson will be contributors next year. And I haven't given up on Bishop yet. He was SLU's best player last year. Yes, they are playing on an bad team this year. But next year they will not be the core of the team like they are this year. If they accept their new role, as supporting players they all can contribute. Remember, next year they will be on the floor with better players, and probably no more than one or two of them will be on the floor at any given time. Playing with superior talent will make each of these guys better players. And regarding who leaves, may be one of the frosh, if they see their playing time diminishing more than they can accept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 1 hour ago, For-DaLove said: We only need to go 8 or so deep. I think we can put together 3 guys off the bench who can contribute enough. You need to put at least one major injury into your formula. This year it is Bishop, last year Yarbrough. It is inevitable that a key player will go down for a stretch. You need 10 to tango. slu72, I agree we need a rim enforcer. Foreman has only 28 blocks in his two year career. Welmer, in 13 games has 17 blocks. French is an unknown as far as 'enforcer'. We still don't have a true point guard, one capable of delivering an average of 4.5 to 5 assists per game, but i guess Ford will run with a group of combo guards. If the group of combo guards can deliver 15 to 18 assists per game, that will hit the target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Speaking of assists,I believe we had 4 against RI. Could that be a NCAA low? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 1 hour ago, HoosierPal said: You need to put at least one major injury into your formula. This year it is Bishop, last year Yarbrough. It is inevitable that a key player will go down for a stretch. You need 10 to tango. slu72, I agree we need a rim enforcer. Foreman has only 28 blocks in his two year career. Welmer, in 13 games has 17 blocks. French is an unknown as far as 'enforcer'. We still don't have a true point guard, one capable of delivering an average of 4.5 to 5 assists per game, but i guess Ford will run with a group of combo guards. If the group of combo guards can deliver 15 to 18 assists per game, that will hit the target. I think you're overestimating the assist production required by your point guard or a group of combo guards. SLU hasn't had a PG average 4.5 apg in over 20 years. And you'd be hard pressed to find more than 1 team in the A10 where a trio of guards averages 15 apg. The fact that Bishop is averaging over 4 apg with this depleted roster, even with his turnovers, is a miracle. If he was passing to next year's finishers his turnovers would decrease dramatically. We'll have more new faces than any team in the A10 next year. Chemistry is the unknown next year. Free throw shooting will be a pain point all year long. Those are the issues that concern me, not talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 1 hour ago, 3star_recruit said: I think you're overestimating the assist production required by your point guard or a group of combo guards. SLU hasn't had a PG average 4.5 apg in over 20 years. And you'd be hard pressed to find more than 1 team in the A10 where a trio of guards averages 15 apg. The fact that Bishop is averaging over 4 apg with this depleted roster, even with his turnovers, is a miracle. If he was passing to next year's finishers his turnovers would decrease dramatically. We'll have more new faces than any team in the A10 next year. Chemistry is the unknown next year. Free throw shooting will be a pain point all year long. Those are the issues that concern me, not talent. I don't agree with your opinion of the value of assists. With a up tempo offense, the assists will become more important. Without assists, what you have is a bunch of one on one plays. Right now Bishop is averaging 4.7 assists per game. If we don't have a PG that can beat out Bishop, then I'm not sure what we have. Today, there are over 70 NCAA ballers that average over 5.0 assists per game. Watson is leading the nation at 9.3 and Ball is next at 8.1. Both of those ballers have immensely helped elevate their teams to top 10 status. There are over 100 players averaging 4.5 or higher assists. That is nearly 1/3 of the NCAA teams. Not a lot to ask for a Billiken to be in the top 1/3 of the nation in assists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Graves averaged less than 3apg in high school and 1.6 apg at BC. Goodwin will be a freshman who has never been a full time point guard. Who, of the players we have coming in next year, do you expect to average over 4.5 apg? I love high assist men. But I don't see anybody like that on our incoming roster. And I expect we can be dramatically better on offense without such a player, just by having multiple offensive threats on the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 The key to next year is Ford getting them to play as a team. No doubt we have a major talent upgrade next year, but 4 of them are transfers who were probably their whole team in HS. I always fear with transfers you've got some ego problems, hence, why they left their school of first choice. We've got to instill some of Rickma's philosophy into these guys, ie teams win individuals don't. I'll give credit to Coach K and Calipari for getting their 5 star one and doners to play as a team. Hopefully, Travis can do this as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVBilliken Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 2 hours ago, slu72 said: The key to next year is Ford getting them to play as a team. No doubt we have a major talent upgrade next year, but 4 of them are transfers who were probably their whole team in HS. I always fear with transfers you've got some ego problems, hence, why they left their school of first choice. We've got to instill some of Rickma's philosophy into these guys, ie teams win individuals don't. I'll give credit to Coach K and Calipari for getting their 5 star one and doners to play as a team. Hopefully, Travis can do this as well. And three of those four transfers get to practice with the team for almost a year. One of them for half a year. That is is HUUUGE, as Trump would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 10 hours ago, slu72 said: The key to next year is Ford getting them to play as a team. No doubt we have a major talent upgrade next year, but 4 of them are transfers who were probably their whole team in HS. I always fear with transfers you've got some ego problems, hence, why they left their school of first choice. We've got to instill some of Rickma's philosophy into these guys, ie teams win individuals don't. I'll give credit to Coach K and Calipari for getting their 5 star one and doners to play as a team. Hopefully, Travis can do this as well. You can look at the type of problems you are talking about in terms of divorces. Everyone can make a serious mistake, land in a bad situation, and have to move on. The ones that are likely to be a problem are the players engaging in serial transfers, these are the ones to stay away from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Does Ford even want a traditional roster with a traditional 5 in the middle? Maybe Ford would prefer a more mobile and athletic lineup? Multiple athletic and big 2's, 3's and 4's is good with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextYearBill Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 6 hours ago, Old guy said: You can look at the type of problems you are talking about in terms of divorces. Everyone can make a serious mistake, land in a bad situation, and have to move on. The ones that are likely to be a problem are the players engaging in serial transfers, these are the ones to stay away from. also.... Rutgers sucks, UCF sucks, Bess wasnt getting PT at Mich State, Boston College sucks..... Ford likely pitched them a chance at postseason basketball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorydays2013 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 25 minutes ago, NextYearBill said: also.... Rutgers sucks, UCF sucks, Bess wasnt getting PT at Mich State, Boston College sucks..... Ford likely pitched them a chance at postseason basketball I almost always look at Verbal Commits to check out rosters of teams my favorite teams are playing against to get a picture of what they're roster looks like, and try to get a picture of what ours might be in a few years. The trend I have seen is that teams with a star studded roster almost always have a large portion of transfers, which seems to be common with top level recruiting programs. That's where I see Bess as one of our best transfers (Remember how M State was supposed to be a final four contender). These guys didn't just transfer for playing time, they transferred to be stars again like they were in high school. These guys are going to work hard. I think Goodwin will also energize this team as well, which works perfect with Ford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 20 hours ago, 3star_recruit said: Graves averaged less than 3apg in high school and 1.6 apg at BC. Goodwin will be a freshman who has never been a full time point guard. Who, of the players we have coming in next year, do you expect to average over 4.5 apg? I love high assist men. But I don't see anybody like that on our incoming roster. And I expect we can be dramatically better on offense without such a player, just by having multiple offensive threats on the floor. We agree. As I said in my first post, we don't have a true PG on next year's roster. We don't have a PG and we don't have a true rim enforcer. Right now, those two jobs default to Bishop and Welmer, based on past + current stats. There are holes in next year's roster. Rebounds will continue to be a challenge. Foreman hopefully can replace Agbeko's boards. French, can he replace or hopefully improve on Crawford's rebounding? His strength is reported to be defensive rebounding, but time will only tell. How many rebounds can we pencil in for Goodwin? Bess is not a rebounding F/G, nor a scorer, nor a passer based on his MSU stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soderball Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 On 1/1/2017 at 5:44 AM, HoosierBilliken said: If for 2017/2018 season, we will have the following level of players; 1. Goodwin, Henriquez, Bess, French, Foreman, with Graves later on for conference play [all first tier players, yet not superstars?]. 2. Welmer [possible starter at times?] 3. Bishop, Moore, Roby, and Johnson [bench, yet decent contributors?] 4. Gillmann and Neufeld [bench, clean up minutes, practice people?] what could possibly be the reason we wouldn't be in post-season play? Am I right on evaluations above? What is the likely, or best hoped scenario of even adding more players for next season? Assistance would be greatly appreciated. Regards 1. is obvious, those players will be the starters throughout the year. They will eat nearly all of the minutes. 2. Welmer may get 10 minutes a game. Will not start. 3. Bishop is gone, Roby is useless, Johnson may play 5-8 minutes a game(warm body without the Crews incompetence), Moore will be highly dependent on if his shot becomes consistent. The latest outing looked like a "go home, kid" 4. You have to be kidding. Both gone. Occupy sacred ground with Brett Jolly in being the worst recruits this program has ever had. This team will struggle early on, badly, without Graves and with new players under a new coach and a new program. Team may have a shot at a CBI bid if the Billikens become competitive in conference play. The school should accept it if offered. We need to see some decent hoops played by legitimate D1 players again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soderball Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 24 minutes ago, HoosierPal said: We agree. As I said in my first post, we don't have a true PG on next year's roster. We don't have a PG and we don't have a true rim enforcer. Right now, those two jobs default to Bishop and Welmer, based on past + current stats. There are holes in next year's roster. Rebounds will continue to be a challenge. Foreman hopefully can replace Agbeko's boards. French, can he replace or hopefully improve on Crawford's rebounding? Time will only tell. How many rebounds can we pencil in for Goodwin? Bess is not a rebounding F/G, nor a scorer, nor a passer based on his MSU stats. What do you think Graves does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soderball Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 23 hours ago, HoosierPal said: I don't agree with your opinion of the value of assists. With a up tempo offense, the assists will become more important. Without assists, what you have is a bunch of one on one plays. Right now Bishop is averaging 4.7 assists per game. If we don't have a PG that can beat out Bishop, then I'm not sure what we have. Today, there are over 70 NCAA ballers that average over 5.0 assists per game. Watson is leading the nation at 9.3 and Ball is next at 8.1. Both of those ballers have immensely helped elevate their teams to top 10 status. There are over 100 players averaging 4.5 or higher assists. That is nearly 1/3 of the NCAA teams. Not a lot to ask for a Billiken to be in the top 1/3 of the nation in assists. To get assists guys have to be able to make shots. Really talented players also don't NEED assists, they are good enough to make their own play. I'd rather be in the top 1/3 of shooting percentage or rebounds than give a crap about assists. What about lowest 1/3 of turnovers. Stats that determine whether you win or lose, not what style of game you play. 2 hours ago, Clock_Tower said: Does Ford even want a traditional roster with a traditional 5 in the middle? Maybe Ford would prefer a more mobile and athletic lineup? Multiple athletic and big 2's, 3's and 4's is good with me. The fixation on the "traditional 5" is how you get nightmares like the Crews Stiff Trio. Get a guy who can play, worry about how tall he is later. Evans was always undersized, and Jett was a guard, yet those guys ate lunch underneath the basket. Willie Reed was totally dominant. Get a guy who can play and move and jump. That is what matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextYearBill Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 53 minutes ago, HoosierPal said: We agree. As I said in my first post, we don't have a true PG on next year's roster. We don't have a PG and we don't have a true rim enforcer. Right now, those two jobs default to Bishop and Welmer, based on past + current stats. There are holes in next year's roster. Rebounds will continue to be a challenge. Foreman hopefully can replace Agbeko's boards. French, can he replace or hopefully improve on Crawford's rebounding? His strength is reported to be defensive rebounding, but time will only tell. How many rebounds can we pencil in for Goodwin? Bess is not a rebounding F/G, nor a scorer, nor a passer based on his MSU stats. Are you high? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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