slufan13 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 If you think Loe is equal to Gillmann and Reynolds is better than Jett, it's not worth arguing over. It's just an insane assertion. Even as sophomores, they were ridiculously more talented and better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Someone pleaseeee stop the Gillman-Loe comps Why? Loe is a former Billiken center and Gillmann is a current Billiken center. They both play offense primary on the perimeter and shy away from post offense (in Loe's case, especially as a sophomore). There's definitely a resemblance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB73 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 After further thought, I deem this to be inaccurate. You seem to be comparing what you remember about the 2010 class as seniors to the current sophomores (who are less than 10 games into their sophomore seasons). Let's make it a fair apples-to-apples comparison. About a third of the way into their sophomore seasons, the 2010 class had Brian Conklin in a breakout year (first team All A-10!) and Kyle Cassity as seniors and Kwamain Mitchell (one of SLU's best ever guards), Cody Ellis (a gamechanger for SLU), and Cory Remekun as juniors. They carried the load, though Cassity's role diminished much later in the season and Remekun was always a role player, though he was a good contributor for post defense off of the bench. By comparison, this year all there is are Ash Yacoubou not quite living up to the transfer-year hype as a senior and Mike Crawford (steady, but not yet quite ready for stardom) and Reggie Agbeko as juniors. These upperclassmen are not carrying nearly as much of the load, putting a lot more weight of responsibility on the sophomores and exposing them a lot more to situations they don't yet have the experience to thrive in. With that background established, let's now compare how the 2010 class looked in mid-December 2011 to how the current sophomores look now. Loe = Gillmann Jett =/< Reynolds McCall =/> Bartley Evans </= Yarbrough Barnett < Roby I would say that Austin Gillmann is on a trajectory similar to that of Rob Loe. Miles Reynolds is probably playing better and contributing more thus far this season than Jordair Jett did early in his sophomore season, when he could hardly be trusted not to turn the ball over. Marcus Bartley has been set back by the foot injury, which prevented him from taking advantage of the summer practice and exhibition tour, but Mike McCall could hardly sit Cassity down by this time in 2011 after leading the team in scoring the prior year. Milik Yarbrough led the team in scoring and rebounding as a freshman and is contributing considerably thus far as a sophomore -- still learning and growing into his role (which could eventually be as a star) -- whereas Dwayne Evans had yet to get his Shaft moniker by this time four years ago. Evans did begin to come on strong midway through the year, as he did as a freshman, but it took some time in each of his first two years. Davell Roby seems to have had his role diminished somewhat at the beginning of this season as compared to the latter portion of last season, but he's still in the rotation and has been coming on recently, while Jake Barnett warmed the bench at this point four years ago. And the fact that Brett Jolly is a sixth player in the class and the roster has fewer upperclassmen as the 2011-12 team further demonstrates why a little bit more patience is required of this group. Yes, other teams have underclassmen and still seem to be better, but do those teams have upperclassmen carrying a lot more of the load than these Billikens? Agree, this is an intelligent assessment. A lot remains to be seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I won't compare the classes anymore. I'm astounded anyone can think that Reynolds is better than Jett or Gillmann is equal to Loe. I'm literally speechless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 If you think Loe is equal to Gillmann and Reynolds is better than Jett, it's not worth arguing over. It's just an insane assertion. Even as sophomores, they were ridiculously more talented and better. They may have been better -- and they certainly were in much better situations! -- but not to a "ridiculous" extent. I think you're letting your dissatisfaction with the current team's quality (and, make no mistake, this is an awful team) distort your memory of the 2010 class when they were a third of the way into their sophomore season and your assessment of the 2014 class's talent level. These sophomores aren't in an ideal situation, as the 2010 class was when they were sophomores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 These sophomores aren't in an ideal situation, as the 2010 class was when they were sophomores. I will give you this, no doubt. I think the 2010 class was significantly better as sophomores ignoring the upperclassmen, but I will definitely give you this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB73 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Jett averaged one turnover per game over the first 8 games of his sophomore season. Reynolds averages 2.3. So your statement is just wrong. I could go through and compare everyone's stats, kenpom stats, etc but it would be a waste of time. The two classes aren't remotely comparable at this point in their careers Not an intelligent post: one stat? 8 games? How many minutes did they each play as a PG, what was Jett's role compared to Reynolds who has been burdened with the majority of the point guard ball handling responsibilities, what was Jett's supporting cast (upperclassmen) compared to Reynolds, what offense did they run & how long was the offense in place (familiarity of the team with the offense), who was the competition for the 8 games, etcetera?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I'll take 8 games into his sophomore year Jett over 8 games into his sophomore year Reynolds if I had to choose one for tonight. I'm a Reynolds fan but come on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I'll take 8 games into his sophomore year Jett over 8 games into his sophomore year Reynolds if I had to choose one for tonight. I'm a Reynolds fan but come on. Perhaps, but I suspect the result tonight would be similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I will give you this, no doubt. I think the 2010 class was significantly better as sophomores ignoring the upperclassmen, but I will definitely give you this point. It wasn't an ideal situation for Loe, Jett, McCall and Evans as freshmen either. Yet they all showed far more as group than this group did as freshman. Mitchell and Reed were ripped away from the team, Conklin regressed as a player because of injuries, and Ellis really regressed because he liked to play with fireworks. Those guys played at a much higher level as group as freshmen than our current group. Let's just stop this insanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB73 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 8 games, 5-3: Nobody knows if the 6 sophs and 3 freshmen will develop into top notch players It is inside the players to do so (or not) and it is also a function of coaching, development Of course Majerus was a superior top HOF level all around coach; he is gone It is too early after 8 games to throw mud and slime and whine and throw hissy fits; the only unacceptable outcome thus far was Morehead St, it is of concern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 It wasn't an ideal situation for Loe, Jett, McCall and Evans as freshmen either. Yet they all showed far more as group than this group did as freshman. Mitchell and Reed were ripped away from the team, Conklin regressed as a player because of injuries, and Ellis really regressed because he liked to play with fireworks. Those guys played at a much higher level as group as freshmen than our current group. Let's just stop this insanity. Heck that was, also, the season Majerus had to sit out a couple weeks. It is amazing that those guys just kept going and got better at the end of the season. That was a special group of players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 With that background established, let's now compare how the 2010 class looked in mid-December 2011 to how the current sophomores look now. Loe = Gillmann Jett =/< Reynolds McCall =/> Bartley Evans </= Yarbrough Barnett < Roby It is definitely not an apples to apples comparison if we are focusing merely on production since the 2010 class was playing their sophomore season on a NCAA tournament level team with upperclassmen like Conklin, Kwamain, and Ellis and the current team is not good with only two upperclassmen contributing. The freshmen year stats would be more apples to apples for those reasons. Based merely on stats and looking at the current stats for the current team in comparison to the entirety of the 2010's class sophomore seasons, this is not too far off from what most would come to, but McCall would easily be > Bartley (10.4 ppg as a freshman and 7.0 as a sophomore for McCall compared to 4.9 and 3.0 for Bartley) and Loe would probably be =/> Gillmann (6.7 ppg as a freshman and 6.5 as a sophomore for Loe compared to 3.5 and 5.1 for Gillmann) again based on stats (Milik slightly better stats than Evans, Reynolds having slightly better stats than Jett due to the beginning of his sophomore season, and I didn't even bother to look at Barnett's stats since he likely wasn't even playing on that team although he did average 12.9 points and 4.3 rebounds as a freshman at Toledo, so maybe that one is not accurate either). I think it is hard to compare stats when there is such a gap in the quality of the team. Somebody has to score and grab rebounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 If you strictly compare stats through the first 8 games, you end up with Crawford > Mitchell. If you watched the games, you know the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 It is definitely not an apples to apples comparison if we are focusing merely on production since the 2010 class was playing their sophomore season on a NCAA tournament level team with upperclassmen like Conklin, Kwamain, and Ellis and the current team is not good with only two upperclassmen contributing. The freshmen year stats would be more apples to apples for those reasons. Based merely on stats and looking at the current stats for the current team in comparison to the entirety of the 2010's class sophomore seasons, this is not too far off from what most would come to, but McCall would easily be > Bartley (10.4 ppg as a freshman and 7.0 as a sophomore for McCall compared to 4.9 and 3.0 for Bartley) and Loe would probably be =/> Gillmann (6.7 ppg as a freshman and 6.5 as a sophomore for Loe compared to 3.5 and 5.1 for Gillmann) again based on stats (Milik slightly better stats than Evans, Reynolds having slightly better stats than Jett due to the beginning of his sophomore season, and I didn't even bother to look at Barnett's stats since he likely wasn't even playing on that team although he did average 12.9 points and 4.3 rebounds as a freshman at Toledo, so maybe that one is not accurate either). I think it is hard to compare stats when there is such a gap in the quality of the team. Somebody has to score and grab rebounds. The Jett, McCall, Loe, Evans group actually played defense. Their freshmen team finished 35th according to Pomeroy in defensive efficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 The Jett, McCall, Loe, Evans group actually played defense. Their freshmen team finished 35th according to Pomeroy in defensive efficiency. Right. It is really difficult to compare individual stats between those two teams and then use those stats to make a judgement regarding individually which guy was better. And like you said, those stats ignore defense and other components that lead to teams winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Right. It is really difficult to compare individual stats between those two teams and then use those stats to make a judgement regarding individually which guy was better. And like you said, those stats ignore defense and other components that lead to teams winning. But let's also not neglect to consider that the 2010 class had the core of an NCAA Tournament caliber team as upperclassmen ahead of them and they could be eased into their responsibilities, but the 2014 class has had to shoulder the entire load because there's too little ahead of them as upperclassmen and they've been beat over the head psychologically with the losing as a result of having to play above their heads. Look, I'm not saying the 2014 class is better than the 2010 class. SLU had never had a class like that that stayed intact for four years (once you take Mitchell off the 2008 cohort because of the redshirt and lose Reed, Femi John, Thompson, and Cotto and after Hughes left the 1997 class after his freshman year), and we can only hope that some coach can bring in (and stack) better classes than the 2010 class in the future. And one problem is that when so much talent is in one class, it's hard to get anything regarding quantity or quality in the following two classes, because some recruits don't want to have to wait until they're juniors or seniors to play featured roles. What I'm saying is that these sophomores do have potential and can anchor NCAA Tournament caliber teams when they're upperclassmen if they're coached up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 But let's also not neglect to consider that the 2010 class had the core of an NCAA Tournament caliber team as upperclassmen ahead of them and they could be eased into their responsibilities, but the 2014 class has had to shoulder the entire load because there's too little ahead of them as upperclassmen and they've been beat over the head psychologically with the losing as a result of having to play above their heads. That is true, it goes both ways and that is what makes the individual comparisons focusing on stats difficult. The odd thing with the 2010 guys is that they had to carry the load as freshmen and then the dynamic changed a bit the next year with Kwamain returning, Conklin elevating his game, and Ellis returning to form after a really bad sophomore season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 What I'm saying is that these sophomores do have potential and can anchor NCAA Tournament caliber teams when they're upperclassmen if they're coached up. I think this is likely the biggest area of debate on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I think this is likely the biggest area of debate on this board.The talent or the coaching or both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I think this is likely the biggest area of debate on this board. The talent or the coaching or both? The determining factor will be if Coach Crews can get the players to "stay with the process" and the "process" is the correct one. Also, the coaching staff will have to keep the players' spirits on an even keel such that the losing doesn't become habitual, expected. Coach Majerus was able to purge the 2010-11 lost year from the memories of the team for the NCAA Tournament run the next year, but he was helped massively by the return of Kwamain and a Conklin summer. The thing is, teams tend to take on the court personality of their head coach. Coach Majerus was relentless; it took impending death to remove him from the game. In contrast, Coach Crews had retired having never fulfilled his early potential, and perhaps he mellowed too much after his experience that led to his leaving Army. Does Crews have the fire in the belly and is he able to bring it out of his team? If this year's team can scratch and claw their way to respectability in the A-10 race (say, 7-11 or 8-10), then I would say, "Yes," and believe that two postseason bids appear likely in '17 and '18. But another three-conference-win slide would suggest the fire is gone and a change is necessary. And whoever the coaches are going forward, some class balance must be attained to get off of a cycle of one to three years of competiveness alternating with one to three years of "is this the worst ever?" discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 The talent or the coaching or both? -both and time will give us the answer although sometimes very difficult to wait for pieces of data to tell the tale -one thing I don't recall seeing in the GDT is the number of times players were really on RA for not doing the right things, I will be watching for this as we move along Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 If Rob and Jordair climbed into a DeLorean before the start of the 2011-12 season, hit 88 miles per hour and traveled to the present day, I'd take them on today's team over Gillmann and Reynolds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 If Rob and Jordair climbed into a DeLorean before the start of the 2011-12 season, hit 88 miles per hour and traveled to the present day, I'd take them on today's team over Gillmann and Reynolds. Sure, but the result would be the same. The 2014 versions of Loe and Jett would make this team decent, but the early-sophomore-year versions of those guys would make no difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majerus mojo Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Why? Loe is a former Billiken center and Gillmann is a current Billiken center. They both play offense primary on the perimeter and shy away from post offense (in Loe's case, especially as a sophomore). There's definitely a resemblance. I developed this way to judge and compare players past and present - I call it "the eye test" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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