kshoe Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 OK, I think I misinterpreted the question, my fault. I was NOT predicting MN to be our best big in 20 years, just to clarify. I also do not think that's what the other guy was suggesting, though I am no mind reader. I thought the question was something like this: Which "true freshman" big, on day one, appeared to be the best prior to any games being played?? That's how I'm interpreting the "best recruit big" idea. I forgot about Willie, you are correct to say he is the best since I got here, athletically. Willie passed the eye candy test for recruits, no doubt. But as it turned out, Willie's issues were pretty significant as well so as a "recruit," meaning a 4-year type of program builder, I think we could haggle over that prediction. (Of course there would be no way to observe that in a scrimmage from day one!!) But yes, athletically, he was a wow, with off the charts upside (athletically) but significant issues personally and so forth (just telling you the way it is). Kenny Brown is an unfair comparison, being older and more built up. Ohannon is an interesting name, forgot about him, he was an impressive all around player when he got here, kind of able to do a little bit of everything. Wasn't he a bit older? But he might be an interesting comparison with MN, physically and in terms of his game; also I think he was in military or something and was also on a national team if I am recalling correctly. As for best recruit (during my time since 98), right off the high school team and just from watching in pickups or practice prior to the season: Kevin was terrific and so was Kwamain. DE also seemed special (and he was). and Tommy of course... Kevin had the intangibles, the guts competitiveness, will to win, and leadership that seem pretty rare nowadays--from day one. Hard to teach, we could use a dose of that for a few of our present guys... Rob Loe scored 20 points or something like that his first game as a Billiken. Then reality set in and he ended the season averaging 6.7 ppg and 3.5 rpg. I'd be very pleased with that kind of production from MN this coming year. As for the biggest impact as a freshman in recent history; it's got to go to Liddel. 10 and 7 per game with a near triple double at Duquesne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 OK, I think I misinterpreted the question, my fault. I was NOT predicting MN to be our best big in 20 years, just to clarify. I also do not think that's what the other guy was suggesting, though I am no mind reader. I thought the question was something like this: Which "true freshman" big, on day one, appeared to be the best prior to any games being played?? That's how I'm interpreting the "best recruit big" idea. I forgot about Willie, you are correct to say he is the best since I got here, athletically. Willie passed the eye candy test for recruits, no doubt. But as it turned out, Willie's issues were pretty significant as well so as a "recruit," meaning a 4-year type of program builder, I think we could haggle over that prediction. (Of course there would be no way to observe that in a scrimmage from day one!!) But yes, athletically, he was a wow, with off the charts upside (athletically) but significant issues personally and so forth (just telling you the way it is). Kenny Brown is an unfair comparison, being older and more built up. Ohannon is an interesting name, forgot about him, he was an impressive all around player when he got here, kind of able to do a little bit of everything. Wasn't he a bit older? But he might be an interesting comparison with MN, physically and in terms of his game; also I think he was in military or something and was also on a national team if I am recalling correctly. As for best recruit (during my time since 98), right off the high school team and just from watching in pickups or practice prior to the season: Kevin was terrific and so was Kwamain. DE also seemed special (and he was). and Tommy of course... Kevin had the intangibles, the guts competitiveness, will to win, and leadership that seem pretty rare nowadays--from day one. Hard to teach, we could use a dose of that for a few of our present guys... Agree with your interpretation of the question, Doc. And I think it's only outlandish if you haven't seen MN play, which I haven't. We need to face it, we haven't had many good 4/5's from day one. Ian was horrible as a freshman. Cody and Ohanon played different positions. Conklin wasn't good as a freshman. Jamal is one of my favorites but he was a transfer. Heinrich as a freshman? Ha. Loe and Baniak were both good as freshman. If MN is as good as those guys then I'll be very happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorB Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 fair enough, Kshoe. I'll go with those numbers; I think MN might be able to do that. But just saying: Rob looked pencil thin to me and I was not bullish on him when I first saw him -- I though he disliked contact and it was like, when -- junior year??--that he started banging bodies a little. I remember being a bit disappointed when I first saw him play; I thought he would have a hard time adjusting to American D1 banging around and I think I was right about that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM28 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I'm confused. Is FDL HIV positive or not? That stuff is contagious on a message board, much like stupidity. Also, we all agree that it Crews doesn't win the Bohemian Invitational, then he should be fired. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 ^ One of the greatest clips of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 AIDS causes you to see dead people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Come on, guys. He only has HIV, not full blown AIDS. And to say, "hi, how are you" in Cherokee is "osiyo, tohitsu?" If they would have cast the Rammer like they should have then this mistake wouldn't have been made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Baniak? He never reached his potential. He was good early and then stopped developing - at least in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 He never reached his potential. He was good early and then stopped developing - at least in my opinion. Agreed, Baniak should not be in the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketbill Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Bigs that were pretty darn good at SLU since 1993: Jamal Johnson Willie Reed Ian Vouyokas Rob Loe Kenny Brown Isaac Ohanon I'm excited about Neufield but to say he is the best in that group mostly sight unseen is ridiculous at this point. I did say "appears" and a word choice of "may be.... " Would have been better. I am meant the comment to be about the player as a whole package, as it is part of the recruiting body of work for Crews. This was part of an overall evaluation of JC, as I am encourage by what I have seen of MN, and what others have said about him after seeing him in person. JC recruiting has been better than I had anticipated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketbill Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Rob Loe scored 20 points or something like that his first game as a Billiken. Then reality set in and he ended the season averaging 6.7 ppg and 3.5 rpg. I'd be very pleased with that kind of production from MN this coming year. As for the biggest impact as a freshman in recent history; it's got to go to Liddel. 10 and 7 per game with a near triple double at Duquesne. What about Hughes for biggest impact.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 What about Hughes for biggest impact.... He probably would have developed into a real nice player had he stayed 4 years at SLU... Is Hughes our only player who has jumped to the NBA early? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbofive Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 i snort and spit every single time, even knowing what's coming. God bless that clip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 What about Hughes for biggest impact.... Doh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Larry Hughes is 36. Man, time flies by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Agreed, Baniak should not be in the conversation. I only included him for purposes of comparing him to MN in terms of ability from day 1 of stepping on campus. I didint think the question was meant to judge a player's whole body of work at SLU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I'd be tickled pink if MN gives us what baniak did as a freshman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I only included him for purposes of comparing him to MN in terms of ability from day 1 of stepping on campus. I didint think the question was meant to judge a player's whole body of work at SLU. That makes sense. It's disheartening when we really have such a small group to even consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I'd be tickled pink if MN gives us what baniak did as a freshman. I think he will and I think he definitely would have had he played with the Legend like Baniak did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I think he will and I think he definitely would have had he played with the Legend like Baniak did. Baniak averaged 9 and 5. I know Hughes freed him up underneath a lot to get boards and easy put backs on the offensive end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billikenswin Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I think he will and I think he definitely would have had he played with the Legend like Baniak did. I have been out of town and just got back to attend my first practice with the new team--here are my observations. First, I think anyone who thinks they can analyze a player or a team in just one practice of even a couple this early in the year is mistaken, particularly when it appears the key players with for the most part be frosh and sophs--other than Crawford and Ash. The staff is loading them up with many new things and it is tough for them to absorb in a short time. Second, with that in mind, I will say that I was pretty impressed with the three frosh in terms of their basketball IQ and their energy and skill levels. MN is cleary a gamer who has skill and he competes. He is thinner than he will be in two years but he is not skinny and he has real bounce off the floor for dunks in game situations. He has a nice touch from the free throw line.and he and Gillman both look like they can give us some good minutes at the 5 with MN seemingly having a higher long term potential. Wellmer is potentially a better shooter than Cody Ellis, in my opinion, because he is a legit 6'9" and he has a very nice release with touch. Cody was very streaky and at times could go off but in other games he would kill us with misses--i.e. Xavier. Wellmer will need to get stronger but his frame looks like it could stand to put on at least 30 lbs of muscle and still have him retain his quickness and shooting ability. Even at this point he seems to play hard and compete. Bishop also looks to have some real potential. I watched him shoot free throws for some time and he has excellent form and touch. On the court he looks confident but he will need to pick up the defense. He is already a nice passer. His time in the weight room over the next several years will put him in a better position to compete (same is true for all three frosh) but he clearly has some nice potential in my opinion. In terms of the returners, Bartley is still sidelined with the foot issue and Reggie is playing but not at 100% yet. Gillman looks like he put on 25 pounds of muscle and he is playing hard as is Brett although Brett still seems to need more seasoning whereas Gillman seems like he is more relaxed and ready to play this year. DR and Crawford and Ash all look very good physically and all are playing very hard on both ends. Mike shot the ball great when I watched and DR was close behind. Milik looks much stronger and leaner and he is still very capable taking the ball to the basket and finishing as long as he stays under control. He is a work in progress on defense but he and the coaches are all making sure he is focused. Miles is playing hard and looks stronger but his overall game is still a work in progress. Based upon only this one practice, it appears to me that this team is better than last year. Time will tell how much better--stating the obvious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorB Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I have been out of town and just got back to attend my first practice with the new team--here are my observations. First, I think anyone who thinks they can analyze a player or a team in just one practice of even a couple this early in the year is mistaken, ... Second, with that in mind, I will say that I was pretty impressed with the three frosh Thanks for the morning laugh. It's always humorous to uncover the ironies of writing such as yours here. On the one hand, any MBM must surely be "mistaken" to believe they can analyze a player in a single practice. On the other hand, here is my analysis... I think a couple other guys have made similar remarks already. Let me just suggest you all read Gladwell's "Blink" and then think a little bit deeper about that proposition. In fact, we make quick judgments in the blink of an eye all the time. Yes, some are dubious at best, but the point of "Blink" is that once someone develops some expertise (10,000 hours worth), they can and in fact do make judgments and analysis with little or no cognitive effort. So no, we are not "mistaken": our quick knee jerk response to a player's innate skills, at this level and at this particular time, are often pretty accurate. Does it mean we can judge long-term results?? of course not. But let's all take a deep breath and realize, for those of us who have been around the game many decades and have seen countless guys come and go, and maybe even played, coached, and/or refereed a very long time: You can tell a great deal in even just a practice or 2. for example, you write: "MN is clearly a gamer who has skill and he competes. He is thinner than he will be in two years but he is not skinny and he has real bounce off the floor for dunks in game situations. He has a nice touch from the free throw line." Right, exactly -- that's Blink! Trust in the Blink -- at least, in areas where you have put in your "10,000 hours" (on that, see "Outliers" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Dr. B, Malcolm Gladwell is a very good writer with an impressive number of books all of which are interesting and all of which provide some insight into whatever it is he is talking about. However if you want to see what is behind the "blink" go for Daniel Kahneman's "Thinking Fast and Slow." The "Blink" Gladwell talks about is almost purely instinctive and subconscious, it is thinking fast. The thinking slow portion is the part that brings the conscious into the process and takes away the aberrations introduced by the subconscious into the fast thinking. When you mention that 10,000 hours of expertise is required to correct the validity of "blink" thinking to acceptable levels, what you are talking about is a kind of a personal experience based filter of subconscious reactions. Yes, indeed, trust the "Blink" but only after you have gone through the necessary level of work hours and expertise. If you have not done so, the "Blink" may be invalid as often as not. To judge long term results you need long term analysis which is, by necessity, a lot harder to do than to develop the expertise to make accurate "Blink" judgments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Justin Johnson is really going to step up this year. Looking great in practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishdude Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I have been out of town and just got back to attend my first practice with the new team--here are my observations. First, I think anyone who thinks they can analyze a player or a team in just one practice of even a couple this early in the year is mistaken, particularly when it appears the key players with for the most part be frosh and sophs--other than Crawford and Ash. The staff is loading them up with many new things and it is tough for them to absorb in a short time. Second, with that in mind, I will say that I was pretty impressed with the three frosh in terms of their basketball IQ and their energy and skill levels. MN is cleary a gamer who has skill and he competes. He is thinner than he will be in two years but he is not skinny and he has real bounce off the floor for dunks in game situations. He has a nice touch from the free throw line.and he and Gillman both look like they can give us some good minutes at the 5 with MN seemingly having a higher long term potential. Wellmer is potentially a better shooter than Cody Ellis, in my opinion, because he is a legit 6'9" and he has a very nice release with touch. Cody was very streaky and at times could go off but in other games he would kill us with misses--i.e. Xavier. Wellmer will need to get stronger but his frame looks like it could stand to put on at least 30 lbs of muscle and still have him retain his quickness and shooting ability. Even at this point he seems to play hard and compete. Bishop also looks to have some real potential. I watched him shoot free throws for some time and he has excellent form and touch. On the court he looks confident but he will need to pick up the defense. He is already a nice passer. His time in the weight room over the next several years will put him in a better position to compete (same is true for all three frosh) but he clearly has some nice potential in my opinion. In terms of the returners, Bartley is still sidelined with the foot issue and Reggie is playing but not at 100% yet. Gillman looks like he put on 25 pounds of muscle and he is playing hard as is Brett although Brett still seems to need more seasoning whereas Gillman seems like he is more relaxed and ready to play this year. DR and Crawford and Ash all look very good physically and all are playing very hard on both ends. Mike shot the ball great when I watched and DR was close behind. Milik looks much stronger and leaner and he is still very capable taking the ball to the basket and finishing as long as he stays under control. He is a work in progress on defense but he and the coaches are all making sure he is focused. Miles is playing hard and looks stronger but his overall game is still a work in progress. Based upon only this one practice, it appears to me that this team is better than last year. Time will tell how much better--stating the obvious! I would agree with most of what you said and add this..........Neufeld is very quick to the bucket to either tip in or dunk a missed shot. Saw him come from 10 feet away in a blink to tip in and dunk missed shots. I spoke to Welmer for a few minutes after practice and he has a bigger frame than first thought and yes, he can easily add some muscle. He did not miss many shots and JC made a comment referring to those defending him that they need to know the person they are defending for example when a guy has NBA range (referring to EW). I only saw one practice so I don't want to make many asssumptions based on my minimul exposure to this team. I do believe they will be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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