breaking news from the streets

[slufan13]

This is a post from billikenreport.com from January

"Just a reminder, please keep all premium content on these boards. I work very hard to maintain my work and sources and give you the best that I can. In return, I ask that the premium content stay within this community. If there are instances in which it has been placed on other boards, then I'll have to stop posting such information.

Thank You,

Ben"

Let's just give it up and not debate about it anymore.

[slufanskip]

This is a post from billikenreport.com from January

"Just a reminder, please keep all premium content on these boards. I work very hard to maintain my work and sources and give you the best that I can. In return, I ask that the premium content stay within this community. If there are instances in which it has been placed on other boards, then I'll have to stop posting such information.

Thank You,

Ben"

Let's just give it up and not debate about it anymore.

well that seems silly. If he quit providing the info he'd have no subscribers.

I see this as a situation where both sides have a fair argument. I would fall on the side of the subscribers should use some discretion as to what they post. Even though I don't subscribe, I can appreciate the work Ben puts into his site and I hope he is able to be succesfull enough to continue to provide a service that people are willing and seem happy to pay for.

[cheeseman]

Since I don't subscribe why would I care if BW stays in business one way or the other - I get no benefit from him and his site. I really think this whole argument turns on somebody asking who the coaches are - this has been going on for days now so it no longer is any new news - someone sharing the name would be no big deal - no one is asking anybody to cut and paste any of BW's articles.

[RiseAndGrind]

If you're good at something, never do it for free.

[Clock_Tower]

The funny thing about Doc B's post is that all of those free sources of info he lists have no desire to expend resources to get the information that this very small group of individuals (people that frequent billikens.com) want because it doesn't appeal to the masses. The one person that is willing to expend the resources (i.e. his time) to get recruiting info, tape press conferences, coaching news, etc. would like to get paid something, anything, for his work.

It should be pretty obvious that the business model to make this site work requires people to feel like they are getting information they can't get anywhere else. As Cheeseman pointed out in the other thread, there is nothing legally stopping somebody from signing up and then reposting everything over here. That being said, when people sign up for that site they are asked not to share the information elsewhere and agree to not do so as part of the agreement (legal or otherwise). Nevermind that sharing the information elsewhere obviously destroys the value of the other site and in all likelihood drives it out of business. Then nobody would have the information besides true program insiders, who rarely post here anymore.

.

If driving an honest person out of business isn't unethical, I don't know what is.

Kshoe. Back in town and just read your posts. I have too much respect for you and you are way too smart to believe what you are actually posting. Drive and honest person out of business because we this Board might return to talking about recruiting?? Who sold the exclusive rights of SLU recruiting to BW?? The fact that SLU is recruiting certain kids is NOT the proprietary work product of BW, Nate or anyone else. The reliability of the news, the immediate timing of the news and the in depth reporting and BW's analysis of the news is what BW is selling -- not the news itself. No rational poster is in favor of someone immediately copying and posting BW's articles on this Board. But for SLU to recruit Player X for two (2) years and then for our regular posters on this Board to feel pressure to abide by the Code is ridiculous. Not EVERY recruit is from outside the metropolitan area and therefore unknown to local contributors of this Board. And even regarding the out-of-town recruits, surely SLU students, faculty and staff have to hear scoop by virute of being on campus, by talking with the players and coaching staff and by actually seeing the recruits walk our campus. Surely, those with connections to the Athletic Department are still getting personal information from their sources. The difference is that these same contributors are not reluctant to post their information on this Board. I can only presume that these SLU students, faculty, staff and persons with connections to the AD either subscribe to to BillikenReport as well and/or feel pressure not to disclose any information they independently obtained out of deference to BillikenReport.

As to Steve and this Board, I am not going to tell him what to do or not do. Steve runs this Board, available to all of us for free with the hope and expectation that Billiken fans will come aboard to discuss Billiken basketball and share information and ideas. What would people want him to do, ban posters who have knowledger but choose not to discuss recruiting? Personally drive BW out of business? Demand a portion of the monies earned by BillikenReport? Get serious.

KShoe. Stop avoiding my questions. Are there no limits regarding the Code such as a time frame after which a story is reported? Does the Code really mean that there is an absolute ban regarding any name mentioned on BillikenReport unless and until rogue subscriber violates the sacred Code or until Timmermann and the Post Dispatch decide to finally post something (which really hasn't been done much in recent years) assuming they even do so??

[RiseAndGrind]

Kshoe. Back in town and just read your posts. I have too much respect for you and you are way too smart to believe what you are actually posting. Drive and honest person out of business because we this Board might return to talking about recruiting?? Who sold the exclusive rights of SLU recruiting to BW?? The fact that SLU is recruiting certain kids is NOT the proprietary work product of BW, Nate or anyone else. The reliability of the news, the immediate timing of the news and the in depth reporting and BW's analysis of the news is what BW is selling -- not the news itself. No rational poster is in favor of someone immediately copying and posting BW's articles on this Board. But for SLU to recruit Player X for two (2) years and then for our regular posters on this Board to feel pressure to abide by the Code is ridiculous. Not EVERY recruit is from outside the metropolitan area and therefore unknown to local contributors of this Board. And even regarding the out-of-town recruits, surely SLU students, faculty and staff have to hear scoop by virute of being on campus, by talking with the players and coaching staff and by actually seeing the recruits walk our campus. Surely, those with connections to the Athletic Department are still getting personal information from their sources. The difference is that these same contributors are not reluctant to post their information on this Board. I can only presume that these SLU students, faculty, staff and persons with connections to the AD either subscribe to to BillikenReport as well and/or feel pressure not to disclose any information they independently obtained out of deference to BillikenReport.

As to Steve and this Board, I am not going to tell him what to do or not do. Steve runs this Board, available to all of us for free with the hope and expectation that Billiken fans will come aboard to discuss Billiken basketball and share information and ideas. What would people want him to do, ban posters who have knowledger but choose not to discuss recruiting? Personally drive BW out of business? Demand a portion of the monies earned by BillikenReport? Get serious.

KShoe. Stop avoiding my questions. Are there no limits regarding the Code such as a time frame after which a story is reported? Does the Code really mean that there is an absolute ban regarding any name mentioned on BillikenReport unless and until rogue subscriber violates the sacred Code or until Timmermann and the Post Dispatch decide to finally post something (which really hasn't been done much in recent years) assuming they even do so??

You are missing the point. It's not about what is legal vs. what is not legal. It's about Ben providing a service under the condition the information is not shared on other websites. His customers have agreed to these conditions and they obviously value the information enough to not even risk violating his request.

It has become quite obvious that Ben is providing a valuable service, and those that don't want to pay are getting angry because they no longer have access to the free information.

[kshoe]

Kshoe. Back in town and just read your posts. I have too much respect for you and you are way too smart to believe what you are actually posting. Drive and honest person out of business because we this Board might return to talking about recruiting?? Who sold the exclusive rights of SLU recruiting to BW?? The fact that SLU is recruiting certain kids is NOT the proprietary work product of BW, Nate or anyone else. The reliability of the news, the immediate timing of the news and the in depth reporting and BW's analysis of the news is what BW is selling -- not the news itself. No rational poster is in favor of someone immediately copying and posting BW's articles on this Board. But for SLU to recruit Player X for two (2) years and then for our regular posters on this Board to feel pressure to abide by the Code is ridiculous. Not EVERY recruit is from outside the metropolitan area and therefore unknown to local contributors of this Board. And even regarding the out-of-town recruits, surely SLU students, faculty and staff have to hear scoop by virute of being on campus, by talking with the players and coaching staff and by actually seeing the recruits walk our campus. Surely, those with connections to the Athletic Department are still getting personal information from their sources. The difference is that these same contributors are not reluctant to post their information on this Board. I can only presume that these SLU students, faculty, staff and persons with connections to the AD either subscribe to to BillikenReport as well and/or feel pressure not to disclose any information they independently obtained out of deference to BillikenReport.

As to Steve and this Board, I am not going to tell him what to do or not do. Steve runs this Board, available to all of us for free with the hope and expectation that Billiken fans will come aboard to discuss Billiken basketball and share information and ideas. What would people want him to do, ban posters who have knowledger but choose not to discuss recruiting? Personally drive BW out of business? Demand a portion of the monies earned by BillikenReport? Get serious.

KShoe. Stop avoiding my questions. Are there no limits regarding the Code such as a time frame after which a story is reported? Does the Code really mean that there is an absolute ban regarding any name mentioned on BillikenReport unless and until rogue subscriber violates the sacred Code or until Timmermann and the Post Dispatch decide to finally post something (which really hasn't been done much in recent years) assuming they even do so??

Stop avoiding your questions? Huh? Where in this thread did you post any questions? You'll have to excuse me for not re-reading the entire 102 post other thread to see if you posted some questions there.

Now, to these questions you asked right here it's fairly simple; until such time that somebody not affilitated with BW's site discusses information that was previous only available on BW's site, it shouldn't be discussed here or any other public forum.

Often, that information is given within a couple days of BW reporting but sometimes it takes longer (as evidenced by the assistant coach info not being public yet). Eventually, if it is worth knowing it will be made public.

Maybe the haters out there should be focusing their efforts on getting Da-Loves, Billikans, P-diddys etc. to share their info for free. Once they do that its all fair game but its time to end the continual complaints that BW should provide his info for free or that people that receive such info should turn around and release it to everyone in direct defiance of BW's request.

[billiken_roy]

kshoe, i dont care that bw keeps his information a secret. as you said, we will all find out eventually. i am upset that nate and he use billikens.com to farm their subscribers. so it's all take and no give. granted steve as recent as yesterday said he doesnt care. but imo that is dispicable. they tease exclusively on steve's site because steve has an awesome stable of membership that are pretty much all billiken fanatics, then when they snare a few they make them pledge secrecy. seems like they have a pretty sweet set up by letting steve do all the heavy lifting.

the least they can do is send a sizeable donation to billikens.com whenever there is a fund raising drive to offset steve's costs.

[kshoe]

kshoe, i dont care that bw keeps his information a secret. as you said, we will all find out eventually. i am upset that nate and he use billikens.com to farm their subscribers. so it's all take and no give. granted steve as recent as yesterday said he doesnt care. but imo that is dispicable. they tease exclusively on steve's site because steve has an awesome stable of membership that are pretty much all billiken fanatics, then when they snare a few they make them pledge secrecy. seems like they have a pretty sweet set up by letting steve do all the heavy lifting.

the least they can do is send a sizeable donation to billikens.com whenever there is a fund raising drive to offset steve's costs.

Roy, BW hasn't posted on this site since he took over Nate's old site. Nate hasn't been involved for 2-3 years so I'm not sure why you are worried about him at this point.

As for the computer generated headlines that show up on the front of Billikens.com, there isn't much that can be done on that. It's a computer search function and Steve can't control it. There is a Cards/Padres headline somehow up there but nobody seems to be claiming that FSMW is "farming" for Billiken fans. Lastly, BW's site has had many articles that don't show up on Billiken.com cover page.

[jbizzle09]

kshoe, i dont care that bw keeps his information a secret. as you said, we will all find out eventually. i am upset that nate and he use billikens.com to farm their subscribers. so it's all take and no give. granted steve as recent as yesterday said he doesnt care. but imo that is dispicable. they tease exclusively on steve's site because steve has an awesome stable of membership that are pretty much all billiken fanatics, then when they snare a few they make them pledge secrecy. seems like they have a pretty sweet set up by letting steve do all the heavy lifting.

the least they can do is send a sizeable donation to billikens.com whenever there is a fund raising drive to offset steve's costs.

I will say it is a fair point about Nate, in that he posted here regularly and started 'teaser' threads linking to his articles at Scout.com. However, I don't see how you can lump Ben into that boat. He does not post here, thus it doesn't appear as if he is farming the site for subscribers. Steve basically has a program set to search for St. Louis sports related columns for his 'Other News' links on the front page, and this will occassionally show a BW article. Other than that, BW has disassociated himself from this board and been very hands off.

[ACE]

This is really an interesting discussion-ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

It is so interesting that it made me do a little simple math. I assume BW needs to pay Rivals something to use the name, but even without that expense and all the other expenses he must incur as with any other business, has anyone really thought about this actually being a "business"? It seems like $90. per year is the annual subscripion rate. I can't conceive that more than 100 people subscribe to the service (ok-go wild and figure 200). If he has 100 members then that grosses him $9000/year, before expenses. Double the members and you have $18K minus expenses. I figure this allows Ben to collect welfare and/or food stamps.

This means that the 50% of Americans who pay 100% of the taxes in this country/state actually do support Ben and his site.

The point is that this is not a business for Ben or Nate previously. It's a hobby and nothing more. I tend to agree with those on the "don't share the info" side of the coin, but let's not make this into something about allowing poor Ben to make a living-no one should expect to make a living from a hobby..

Ridiculous. So you start out suggesting that this is a boring topic with the ZZZZ and then proceed to talk about it in detail. And then you interject the myth that has debunked by virtually every independent source about the 50% of Americans paying 100% of the taxes?!?! And then the level of arrogance to belittle what Ben is doing by calling it a "hobby"... . Even if he can't make a living just running the website, it may be one of several sources of income. You may not know people like this, but there are some hard-working people who have to work more than one job. If the rules of the site are that they ask the subscribers not to share the info on other sites, not sure why some people are having a hard time accepting that. Although his business is probably very small now, why take shots at it and belittle it by calling it a hobby? Maybe he is a budding small business owner. His career is just getting started. Ben is a recent SLU graduate, correct? If he has a passion for Billiken hoops and is willing to do some work and provide info, good for him. Who knows, maybe he is able to grow the business as the popularity of SLU's program grows. Maybe he parlays this job into a bigger role with Rivals or maybe he grows into the next Andy Katz.

I think it is encouraging that some people are clamoring for information about who the next assistant coach is.This is basic supply and demand. As the demand for Billiken news grows, hopefully the variety of outlets talking about it will grow. I don't know why some people are trying to pit Ben against Steve. If you read Steve's post, you can tell he holds Ben in high regard. The sites serve different functions. If we want our program to develop into a Gonzaga or Xavier, we should expect that there will be more outlets talking SLU hoops. Do you think there is only one website covering those programs? I hope Ben's site grows, I hope this one grows and I even hope that the stltoday site grows. The can collecting business has been pretty good for me the last couple of years, so I may give Ben's site a try during the season. As for stltoday, there is usually very little traffic over there, but I did notice that it picked up a bit this season as our team began to have success. There are a few good posters over there who have provided some interesting tidbits from time to time. Why would I like to see that site grow too? Because how many people on here complain about the lack of coverage in the P-D? Some marketing type could look at that site and easily conclude that there is very little interest in SLU athletic news.

The problem that the news about the assistant has not been leaked is not with Ben, it is the fact that there needs to be more people covering this kind of stuff. I will go back to saying, if you want more Billiken news, shoot Timmermann an email. If enough people show they care about SLU news, you may see more of it. You could also send something over to Fox Sports Midwest. They started covering SLU with more frequency on their website. Does Earl Austin still have a website? Shoot him an email. Let the people who cover SLU hoops know that there is a growing demand for news.

[Clock_Tower]

Stop avoiding your questions? Huh? Where in this thread did you post any questions? You'll have to excuse me for not re-reading the entire 102 post other thread to see if you posted some questions there.

Now, to these questions you asked right here it's fairly simple; until such time that somebody not affilitated with BW's site discusses information that was previous only available on BW's site, it shouldn't be discussed here or any other public forum.

Often, that information is given within a couple days of BW reporting but sometimes it takes longer (as evidenced by the assistant coach info not being public yet). Eventually, if it is worth knowing it will be made public.

Maybe the haters out there should be focusing their efforts on getting Da-Loves, Billikans, P-diddys etc. to share their info for free. Once they do that its all fair game but its time to end the continual complaints that BW should provide his info for free or that people that receive such info should turn around and release it to everyone in direct defiance of BW's request.

Re-read my post #39 from the New Coaches thread -- the same thread in which you subsequently posted twice after I posed the questions.

And to be clear, if BW has a scoup on who the next coaches will be, then fine, keep this a secret until it is made public by SLU. I have absolutely no problem with this. On the other hand, if SLU recruits a player for over two (2) years, then silence and "honoring the Code" is ridiculous. Keep the many of the details of player's recruit a secret. Keep the comments made to Ben following his campus visit a secret. But a complete gag order on ALL recruiting is disrespectful to Steve and this Board.

Are we to believe that this is the norm? That the local Scout contributor for every basketball program places a gag order on ALL aspects of recruiting and that their team's forum/Board talks nothing about recruiting until the school/local newspaper holds a press conference on signing day??

To me, Nate had conflict of interest written all over himself. Nate worked for the Post Dispatch (which I subscribed to), covered highschool sports and helped contribute, as needed, to the sports page which was to cover our Billikens, Mizzou, etc while at the same time he created his own website to charge a premium. Was it any wonder that Timmerman (the Post Dispatch colleague of Nate) stopped providing recruiting tidbits?

[slufan13]

I could be wrong here but I don't think Ben would be upset about one of us stating who. We are recruiting. The process and invterviews with the recruits is premium content but there are a lot of websites that say who we are recruiting. I can ask Ben about that and maybe he can come on here or one of us can post some of our 2013 targets. He might say no but maybe that could be a little compromise.

The assistant coaching thing is a whole different scenario than recruiting targets and stuff like that.

Also I know that the post that Ben had about keeping the information private is a clause that is required by scout.com. so even if Ben doesn't think the information should have to be private, his employer says it does so he doesn't really have much of a choice.

Also I think you get a 7 day free trial. You'll have to put your credit card in but if you really wanted, you could cancel your subscription right before the free trial ends.

[Cowboy]

-if ben has rules or preferences for subscribers and the subscribers adhere to those rules or preferences so be it

-if the information or timing of access to the information is valuable more people will subscribe, if not, seems obvious

-but no where is there a prohiition of recruiting talk here, just that subcribers to ben's site won't be bringing info from that site on here

[Cowboy]

I could be wrong here but I don't think Ben would be upset about one of us stating who. We are recruiting. The process and invterviews with the recruits is premium content but there are a lot of websites that say who we are recruiting. I can ask Ben about that and maybe he can come on here or one of us can post some of our 2013 targets. He might say no but maybe that could be a little compromise.

The assistant coaching thing is a whole different scenario than recruiting targets and stuff like that.

Also I know that the post that Ben had about keeping the information private is a clause that is required by scout.com. so even if Ben doesn't think the information should have to be private, his employer says it does so he doesn't really have much of a choice.

Also I think you get a 7 day free trial. You'll have to put your credit card in but if you really wanted, you could cancel your subscription right before the free trial ends.

-why risk upsetting the apple cart to satsify those not subscribing? i am not a subscriber

-it would seem once the line on what can be shared versus what can't starts to move the slope becomes very slippery

[slufan13]

Cowboy,

For some reason couldn't reply directly to your post from my phone but I agree on that and thought of that just after I posted it.

[slufanskip]

I don't get all this. If Ben didn't have a site no one would know anyway. He does though and those that bought the info have it also, it's their info and if they choose not to share it they don't have to.

[Box and Won]

Wow, this may be the most boring offseason ever.

Considering the events of previous offseasons, that may not necessarily be a bad thing though.

[JMM28]

Wow, this may be the most boring offseason ever.

Considering the events of previous offseasons, that may not necessarily be a bad thing though.

We have almost 10 pages of the same 5 people saying the same exact things.

Can't a walk on go get in trouble or something? Maybe Rick can come out and support some sort of political view. I'd even take an ol "Biondi hates old buildings" threads at this point.

[kshoe]

We have almost 10 pages of the same 5 people saying the same exact things.

Can't a walk on go get in trouble or something? Maybe Rick can come out and support some sort of political view. I'd even take an ol "Biondi hates old buildings" threads at this point.

In a bit of good news, I did hear from a source that should know that all the players passed their classes and as long as nothing unexpected happens in the offseason (injuries, fireworks, "situations") we should be all set for next year.

[Bobby Metzinger]

Just to clarify...this is ok: