Official Lisch and Liddell appreciation thread

[STL Hoops Insider]

Two players from just across the river who could've chosen gone elsewhere and to higher profile programs, but stayed home and were 4 year starters and a part of some very memorable teams and helped break the team into the Atlantic 10 Conference. Post your comments here.

[Postcard]

Two players from just across the river who could've chosen gone elsewhere and to higher profile programs, but stayed home and were 4 year starters and a part of some very memorable teams and helped break the team into the Atlantic 10 Conference. Post your comments here.

Both great players that unfortunately didn't have the talent around them to take it to the next level.

[thetorch]

Per TT's blog Tommie surpassed Rich Niemann for 10 place all time Billiken rebounding tonight. He is 16 assists away from the top ten all time in assists. He will be the only Billiken to finish his career top ten in points, assists, and rebounds.

[STL Hoops Insider]

Thanks for posting that.

[BillikensFan4life]

TL is not having the year we all expected, in the last 3 or 4 games he's only taken about 8 shots per game due to him playing the 4 position I guess. Can someone explain to me how did he go from an NBA prospect to nothing under one of the greatest coaches ever

[drkelsey55]

TL is not having the year we all expected, in the last 3 or 4 games he's only taken about 8 shots per game due to him playing the 4 position I guess. Can someone explain to me how did he go from an NBA prospect to nothing under one of the greatest coaches ever

You must not listen to comments by the coach during this time about what a great defensive game Tommie has been playing. It takes a total game to play in the NBA not just points. Nothing wrong with Tommie he is just play a s needed.

[Billikan]

TL is not having the year we all expected, in the last 3 or 4 games he's only taken about 8 shots per game due to him playing the 4 position I guess. Can someone explain to me how did he go from an NBA prospect to nothing under one of the greatest coaches ever

You obviously have never played a minute of basketball on any level beyond grade school and have no clue about the keys to winning basketball. To insult Tommie like this is one of the worst things I have ever seen on this board and that is saying a lot considering the idiocy that prevails at times.

Tommie has been a very important part of this team. He may well be our best defender and he is sure our best defender against mid sized athletic 2/3 men who post up people like Kevin and KM. Tommie is one of the best rebounders for his size that I have ever seen and he gets rebounds in traffic against bigger guys. You are an absolute idiot to say that Tommie is "nothing" when he is so important to this team and he has had a great carreer--I assume you were banned and came back under a new name. Go away

[slufanskip]

TL is not having the year we all expected, in the last 3 or 4 games he's only taken about 8 shots per game due to him playing the 4 position I guess. Can someone explain to me how did he go from an NBA prospect to nothing under one of the greatest coaches ever

1st of all who other than people on this board listed Tommie as an NBA prospect that doesn't now?

[BillikensFan4life]

You obviously have never played a minute of basketball on any level beyond grade school and have no clue about the keys to winning basketball. To insult Tommie like this is one of the worst things I have ever seen on this board and that is saying a lot considering the idiocy that prevails at times.

Tommie has been a very important part of this team. He may well be our best defender and he is sure our best defender against mid sized athletic 2/3 men who post up people like Kevin and KM. Tommie is one of the best rebounders for his size that I have ever seen and he gets rebounds in traffic against bigger guys. You are an absolute idiot to say that Tommie is "nothing" when he is so important to this team and he has had a great carreer--I assume you were banned and came back under a new name. Go away

I read on this board that a NBA scout questioned if SLU was a D1 school, I think when they played Temple.I think Tommy is a great player but im just wondering why he's not putting up numbers

[ARbilliken]

I will say I have questioned the play of these two players this year and their lack of production (in numbers) when really needed---but I have to say Tommie's defense was excellent, especially these last few conference games. You can't say enough about a guy who goes out there, wants to dribble and create his shot like he was allowed to do the first 2 years, but now has to play more team ball and defend. He has really stepped up this year and become a vital part of this team winning the way it has.

KL has really come on as of late and I am very happy for him. His toughness and hard minutes on the floor have finally paid off in numbers these last two games and the buzzer-beater shot the other night IMO was a exclamation mark on a great career at SLU. I don't know how much injury affected him, but no signs of problems as of late.

Thank you to the seniors for their difficult 4 years. I would say the transition from BS to RM was difficult to say the least for these two and I am glad we had them on our team. I wish them the best these next 6 games and hopefully a run in the A-10 tourney.

[cheesycow]

1st of all who other than people on this board listed Tommie as an NBA prospect that doesn't now?

He was an NBA prospect in the same way that we all are, before our dreams die sometime in high school.

[jimbofive]

He was an NBA prospect in the same way that we all are, before our dreams die sometime in high school.

Ummm.... no. He was an NBA prospect until he never regained the offensive prowess that he showed his sophomore year. While he probably is a better player now, he has no standout aspect of his game anymore and that won't get him noticed at a mid-major that never made the tournament. I think after scoring 15.4 per game, hitting almost 50% from 3 and scoring 20+ in six straight games, a lot of us expected him to be scoring at or above 20 per game by his senior year. It didn't happen, and that sucks, but I think Tommie will be alright in life.

[JaleJarr]

Ummm.... no. He was an NBA prospect until he never regained the offensive prowess that he showed his sophomore year. While he probably is a better player now, he has no standout aspect of his game anymore and that won't get him noticed at a mid-major that never made the tournament. I think after scoring 15.4 per game, hitting almost 50% from 3 and scoring 20+ in six straight games, a lot of us expected him to be scoring at or above 20 per game by his senior year. It didn't happen, and that sucks, but I think Tommie will be alright in life.

Those are some great points Jimbo. Those are some of things that had scouts looking at Tommie. There are two schools of thoughts, according to some sources there is the perception that Tommie's play has regressed, while others acknowledge the coaching change having something to do with his play. Either way Tommie will hopefully have the opportunity to open some eyes at either the NBA Camp or at Portsmouth. I don't really look at what has happened as SLU the past two seasons as being indicative of Tommie's skill level. Some of the less knowledgeable people will say he went from scoring 15.4 ppg to scoring 12 ppg and now around 13 ppg for the last two seasons, I will say almost all of those points came exclusively in a half court set. No small feat when you consider that Tommie is often going 1 on 2 and sometimes 1 on 3. Teams could do that knowing Tommie and Kevin has no other legitimate scoring threats available. Put Tommie in a situation where he can punish the defense with his passing and his ability to break down one on one defense his value will rise.

If not European money is spending much better than the US dollars nowadays.

[jimbofive]

Those are some great points Jimbo. Those are some of things that had scouts looking at Tommie. There are two schools of thoughts, according to some sources there is the perception that Tommie's play has regressed, while others acknowledge the coaching change having something to do with his play. Either way Tommie will hopefully have the opportunity to open some eyes at either the NBA Camp or at Portsmouth. I don't really look at what has happened as SLU the past two seasons as being indicative of Tommie's skill level. Some of the less knowledgeable people will say he went from scoring 15.4 ppg to scoring 12 ppg and now around 13 ppg for the last two seasons, I will say almost all of those points came exclusively in a half court set. No small feat when you consider that Tommie is often going 1 on 2 and sometimes 1 on 3. Teams could do that knowing Tommie and Kevin has no other legitimate scoring threats available. Put Tommie in a situation where he can punish the defense with his passing and his ability to break down one on one defense his value will rise.

If not European money is spending much better than the US dollars nowadays.

Very true. It will be interesting if he actually gets a shot at working out for a few teams. I just don't think that an offense like Majerus' can put any one player on display. The only thing that I think Tommie REALLY needs to work on now is being more careful with the ball when it comes to attacking those double or triple teams, even if his intent is to draw those defensive players and then pass. Same goes for Kevin. They both have lost the ball A LOT in those situations and ended up scrambling on the floor for it, amounting to either a jump ball or a turnover. I don't seem to recall that ever happening as much as it has this year. I don't really know how you practice not getting swarmed, but I think things will get better towards the end of the season, as the young guys are learning to spread the floor a little better when TL and KL are doing their thing.

I think if Tommie makes it to the NBA, it'll be by the skin of his teeth, and because one or two teams took a chance on Majerus' recommendation and gave him a chance to shine in some individual workouts. He'll most probably end up playing in Europe which could ultimately end up being just as rewarding. But a sure thing is that Tommie has COMPLETELY unselfishly turned himself from a scorer into an all-around player for the good of the team. And he's one of the best rebounding guards I've ever seen. That can't be refuted.

[billiken_roy]

all we have heard since rickma arrived is how tied in to the nba rickma is and his gigantic network of nba friends. if rickma doesnt get both tommie and kevin at least looksee's i will be p!ssed. however i totally understand they have to make it on their own. but the opportunities should be there.

[jimbofive]

all we have heard since rickma arrived is how tied in to the nba rickma is and his gigantic network of nba friends. if rickma doesnt get both tommie and kevin at least looksee's i will be p!ssed. however i totally understand they have to make it on their own. but the opportunities should be there.

Yeah, same. I'd be SHOCKED if he didn't push them around to whoever he could. He's been name-dropping both of them a lot lately. Granted, we've been winning and it's only local media, but I'm sure his recommendations will glow like glowing bouncy balls from the machines in front of the supermarket.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Yeah, same. I'd be SHOCKED if he didn't push them around to whoever he could. He's been name-dropping both of them a lot lately. Granted, we've been winning and it's only local media, but I'm sure his recommendations will glow like glowing bouncy balls from the machines in front of the supermarket.

I think both Tommie Liddel III and Kevin Lisch have a chance for the NBA, and certainly both will get to play pro ball if they wish.

In Liddell's case, he can shoot, he can penetrate, he can rebound for a guard, and he can sky.

In Lisch's case, he can shoot, and there's always a place for a shooter.

Look at Steve Nash. Who could have anticipated how good of an NBA player he's been coming out of Santa Clara? The same goes earlier for John Stockton coming out of Gonzaga before it was on the national radar.

There are many NBA players of whom the casual fan was unaware in their college days.

Part of this is being in the right place at the right time, just like life in general.

[Bill_Ken R]

I think Tommie has really grown in many respects while at SLU and that he will have a very successful life however he ends up earning a living. I am very impressed when Tommie talks to the groups or to the media. He is a great representative of a quality academic school. Remember that he didn't qualify out of high school and that he worked hard at prep school to get his school work up and he has obviously done his work at SLU. He has improved his overall play even though his scoring averages are lower under Rick and has become a stellar defender and rebounder. There are a lot of players that are big scorers who do not have other important skills. Look at the man's record. I am no scout nor any expert but do not underestimate Tommie. Someone is going to see a lot of value there whether it is NBA or Europe. No question the change in coaches had a big impact because Tommie is a much better player now than he was as a sophomore.

[Clock_Tower]

Perspective: let's not kid ourselves about TL's game prior to RM. He had talent but he also definitely had major holes in his game.

First, TL was a good, athletic player his Freshman year, he rebounded quite well but his high/loose dribble, his lack of good defense, his lack of an outside shot, and his tendancy to "disappear" and play soft on the court were real negatives. Second, yes TL scored 15 points/game his Sophomore year but that was after his poor shooting Freshman year. After really working on his game and developing his shot after his Freshman year, TL caught alot of teams by surprise his Sophomore year. Third, the coaching change, lack of IV/any inside threat and lack of being able to catch teams by surprise, caused TL's scoring to decrease and his new role in RM's offense caused TL's rebounds to decrease. With that said, after his Sophomore year and under RM, TL continued to work hard, he learned to not only play defense but is now our best defender, his shot continued to improve but we no longer ran screens just for him, his dribbling is better but he still is no PG and he no longer "disappears" and now plays strong. Instead, he is our most solid and steady guy playing 35 plus minutes per game. He I cannot be any more pleased with his progress and work ethic.

If anyone thinks TL has regressed since his Sophomore, I'm sorry, but I just don't agree.

[thetorch]

I applaud Tommie's work ethic, he has changed his game, but he was never a true NBA prospect.

He is at best a tweener, and he may be too small for that. His jump shot is poor for pro standards. His handles are below average. His athleticism while lauded by us are no more than average really. If he had some point guard skills he would be a prospect, but he doesn't. He is an above average wing in college who is 6'3. That doesn't translate to the NBA wihtout out of the world athleticism. Tommie doesn't have it. Mo Jeffers got drafted. Tommie is Jeffers 2 inches shorter, 20 lbs lighter and much less athleticism.

If Lisch were a better passer he could get a look.

Both of them if they work will be able to play pro ball somewhere for as long as they want, just not in the league though.

[Taj79]

Isn't Anthony Drejaj playing for money somewhere? I thought he was spotted at the Fordham game and was playing in Iceland or something like that. It would seem to me that if Drejaj can make money doing it, these two guys could too. Isn't Heiney still playing in Europer somewhere? Okay, you can't teach height but, come on, Drejaj had a better all-around game than Lisch or Liddell? I liked Anthony a lot but I don't think so. Its a matter of what do you want to do. Kevin will have an MBA --- a SLU legend, that should equate into a pretty plush St. Louis afterlife if you ask me. Do you want to take the beating of Europe? Maybe a year or two and prove to yourself? I don't know. NBA? As long as Steve Blake plays on an NBA roster, there has to be hope.

Tommie? the only thing I'd ask is what does Tommie add that 100 other similar guys don't? Maybe its his heart, if that's it. Seems to me there are a lot of TLIII floating around out there. The ones with biggest hearts seem to get the prize. Does he have that? Only one person can answer.

I think Lisch and Liddell had the careers we all hoped they'd have. I'd say SLU Hall of Fame type numbers. Long run -- no post season appearances hurts. That was the surrounding folks, to which neither had a thing to contribute nor should they be blamed.

[ACE]

I applaud Tommie's work ethic, he has changed his game, but he was never a true NBA prospect.

He is at best a tweener, and he may be too small for that. His jump shot is poor for pro standards. His handles are below average. His athleticism while lauded by us are no more than average really. If he had some point guard skills he would be a prospect, but he doesn't. He is an above average wing in college who is 6'3. That doesn't translate to the NBA wihtout out of the world athleticism. Tommie doesn't have it. Mo Jeffers got drafted. Tommie is Jeffers 2 inches shorter, 20 lbs lighter and much less athleticism.

If Lisch were a better passer he could get a look.

Both of them if they work will be able to play pro ball somewhere for as long as they want, just not in the league though.

I think that is a fair analysis. This is not a knock on Tommie, but I never felt like his athleticism was that great. He is a very smooth player, but seems to lack that explosive quickness that would be required for a player like him to succeed in the NBA. Tommie is less athletic than Jeffers was. While it won't be in the NBA, Tommie should still be able to make a lot of money playing pro ball somewhere.

[tdog]

Two players from just across the river who could've chosen gone elsewhere and to higher profile programs, but stayed home and were 4 year starters and a part of some very memorable teams and helped break the team into the Atlantic 10 Conference. Post your comments here.

I applaud Insider for starting this thread, and there are a couple of posts in it that actually show appreciation for Tommie and Kevin. But the majority of posters instead chose this time to criticize them, belabor their supposed shortcomings, and have failed to show any appreciation for them. Believe me, all of you naysayers will miss them when they are gone.

Tommie and Kevin have worked tirelessly for the past four years (five years in Tommie's case) to improve their basketball skills and to raise SLU's level of play through excellent teamwork. They could have taken the easy way out two years ago and transferred out of the program. Instead, they honored the commitment they made to the school, and redoubled their effort under the new coaching staff. Next year, our returning players will be their legacy, as Tommie and Kevin have provided tremendous examples for them of what is required to be successful in our program.

Beyond the basketball court, these two have also worked extremely hard on their academics. As noted in here, Tommie has come from non-qualifier status to earn a bachelor's degree in just four years. And Kevin will walk away with an MBA just four years out of high school. Here's hoping that he will have the honor of being an academic All-American this year. And these accomplishments have come in spite of the demands of playing D1 basketball, with the training, practices and travel that it requires. My hat is off to these fine young men, and I am absolutely sure that they will be successful in the future, regardless of what it holds for them. Billiken fans cannot thank them enough.

[NH]

I applaud Tommie's work ethic, he has changed his game, but he was never a true NBA prospect.

He is at best a tweener, and he may be too small for that. His jump shot is poor for pro standards. His handles are below average. His athleticism while lauded by us are no more than average really. If he had some point guard skills he would be a prospect, but he doesn't. He is an above average wing in college who is 6'3. That doesn't translate to the NBA wihtout out of the world athleticism. Tommie doesn't have it. Mo Jeffers got drafted. Tommie is Jeffers 2 inches shorter, 20 lbs lighter and much less athleticism.

If Lisch were a better passer he could get a look.

Both of them if they work will be able to play pro ball somewhere for as long as they want, just not in the league though.

In Atlantic City last year, A scout for the cleveland cavaliers told me that Tommie, after his sophmore year, was rated as the bestguard prospect in The Atlantic 10. He said he had then fallen off some under Majerus his junior year.

He also said he liked Lisch but that Lisch could not get off his shot against bigger, more athleic players

[slufanskip]

I applaud Insider for starting this thread, and there are a couple of posts in it that actually show appreciation for Tommie and Kevin. But the majority of posters instead chose this time to criticize them, belabor their supposed shortcomings, and have failed to show any appreciation for them. Believe me, all of you naysayers will miss them when they are gone.

Tommie and Kevin have worked tirelessly for the past four years (five years in Tommie's case) to improve their basketball skills and to raise SLU's level of play through excellent teamwork. They could have taken the easy way out two years ago and transferred out of the program. Instead, they honored the commitment they made to the school, and redoubled their effort under the new coaching staff. Next year, our returning players will be their legacy, as Tommie and Kevin have provided tremendous examples for them of what is required to be successful in our program.

Beyond the basketball court, these two have also worked extremely hard on their academics. As noted in here, Tommie has come from non-qualifier status to earn a bachelor's degree in just four years. And Kevin will walk away with an MBA just four years out of high school. Here's hoping that he will have the honor of being an academic All-American this year. And these accomplishments have come in spite of the demands of playing D1 basketball, with the training, practices and travel that it requires. My hat is off to these fine young men, and I am absolutely sure that they will be successful in the future, regardless of what it holds for them. Billiken fans cannot thank them enough.

I think you misread some posts. I don't think anyone (except a few trolls) disagrees with both Tommie and Kevin being two of the best BIllikens of all time. I know I think they are. Saying I don't think Tommie will play in the NBA doesn't mean I don't admire him and respect his contributions to the Bills. I wish they could have been surrounded by better players and would have experienced the NCAA tourney by now, not for us fans, but for them. Imo they deserve it. Tommie has imo turned himself into the best all around guard I've seen in a Billiken uniform.