SLU All-Time Scoring Leaders

[Pistol]

After reading Timmerman's most recent blog post, I was inspired to look more into the all-time scoring leaders and SLU and see where Kevin and Tommie were and how high they might reach. Here's the list:

Total Points

1. Anthony Bonner (’86-90) 1,972

2. Erwin Claggett (’92-95) 1,910

3. Roland Gray (’85-89) 1,880

4. Monroe Douglass (’85-89) 1,877

5. Scott Highmark (’92-95) 1,703

6. Harry Rogers (’70-73) 1,491

7. Dick Boushka (’52-55) 1,440

8. Kevin Lisch (2006-09) 1,422

9. Ed Macauley (’45-49) 1,402

10. Joe Wiley (’67-70) 1,368

11. Tommie Liddell, III (2006-09) 1,367

12. Marque Perry (2000-03) 1,358

13. Luther Burden (’82-85) 1,349

14. Lewis McKinney (’73-76) 1,325

15. Jim Irving (’68-71) 1,269

16. Carl Johnson (’74-78) 1,187

17. Jim McLaughlin (’53-56) 1,170

18. Bob Ferry (’56-59) 1,128

19. Jack Mimlitz (’55-58) 1,116

20. Virgel Cobbin (’96-99) 1,107

21. David Burns (’79-81) 1,049

22. Ian Vouyoukas (2003-07) 1,046

So after crunching some numbers and looking at the remaining games (based on if we make the A10 Tournament and how far we go), here are the averages they need in order to tie for the top spot with Bonner:

17: Lisch 32.4, Liddell 35.6 - No A10 Tournament

18: Lisch 30.6, Liddell 33.6 - A10 1st Round

19: Lisch 28.9, Liddell 31.8 - A10 2nd Round

20: Lisch 27.5, Liddell 30.3 - A10 3rd Round

21: Lisch 26.2, Liddell 28.8 - A10 Final

22: Lisch 25.0, Liddell 27.5 - Postseason Tournament

23: Lisch 23.9, Liddell 26.3 - Postseason Tournament

24: Lisch 22.9, Liddell 25.2 - Postseason Tournament

Now, we could still potentially play in the NIT or CBI and not make the A10 final (it's possible, if not likely), so that's why I just say Postseason Tournament after A10 final. I also stopped at 24 because anything past that would require the very late rounds of the NIT or NCAA tournament.

So, any guesses as to where will each end up on the list?

[davidnark]

So, any guesses as to where will each end up on the list?

They will either finish 5th/6th or 6th/7th.

[jimbofive]

After reading Timmerman's most recent blog post, I was inspired to look more into the all-time scoring leaders and SLU and see where Kevin and Tommie were and how high they might reach. Here's the list:

Total Points

1. Anthony Bonner (’86-90) 1,972

2. Erwin Claggett (’92-95) 1,910

3. Roland Gray (’85-89) 1,880

4. Monroe Douglass (’85-89) 1,877

5. Scott Highmark (’92-95) 1,703

6. Harry Rogers (’70-73) 1,491

7. Dick Boushka (’52-55) 1,440

8. Kevin Lisch (2006-09) 1,422

9. Ed Macauley (’45-49) 1,402

10. Joe Wiley (’67-70) 1,368

11. Tommie Liddell, III (2006-09) 1,367

12. Marque Perry (2000-03) 1,358

13. Luther Burden (’82-85) 1,349

14. Lewis McKinney (’73-76) 1,325

15. Jim Irving (’68-71) 1,269

16. Carl Johnson (’74-78) 1,187

17. Jim McLaughlin (’53-56) 1,170

18. Bob Ferry (’56-59) 1,128

19. Jack Mimlitz (’55-58) 1,116

20. Virgel Cobbin (’96-99) 1,107

21. David Burns (’79-81) 1,049

22. Ian Vouyoukas (2003-07) 1,046

So after crunching some numbers and looking at the remaining games (based on if we make the A10 Tournament and how far we go), here are the averages they need in order to tie for the top spot with Bonner:

17: Lisch 32.4, Liddell 35.6 - No A10 Tournament

18: Lisch 30.6, Liddell 33.6 - A10 1st Round

19: Lisch 28.9, Liddell 31.8 - A10 2nd Round

20: Lisch 27.5, Liddell 30.3 - A10 3rd Round

21: Lisch 26.2, Liddell 28.8 - A10 Final

22: Lisch 25.0, Liddell 27.5 - Postseason Tournament

23: Lisch 23.9, Liddell 26.3 - Postseason Tournament

24: Lisch 22.9, Liddell 25.2 - Postseason Tournament

Now, we could still potentially play in the NIT or CBI and not make the A10 final (it's possible, if not likely), so that's why I just say Postseason Tournament after A10 final. I also stopped at 24 because anything past that would require the very late rounds of the NIT or NCAA tournament.

So, any guesses as to where will each end up on the list?

Without any mathematical analysis, just good ol' boy eyeballin', I'd guess that Kevin will end up 5th and Liddell 7th. Though Liddell's play lately is encouraging that he might make a run at passing Kevin. Should be fun to follow towards the end, and both deserve every accolade and record they receive. Standup Billikens, don't think I've ever seen either of them be anything than consummate sportsmen.

[Box and Won]

This is the kind of hard-hitting analysis that I am simply unable to provide. Well done.

[Pistol]

Without any mathematical analysis, just good ol' boy eyeballin', I'd guess that Kevin will end up 5th and Liddell 7th. Though Liddell's play lately is encouraging that he might make a run at passing Kevin. Should be fun to follow towards the end, and both deserve every accolade and record they receive. Standup Billikens, don't think I've ever seen either of them be anything than consummate sportsmen.

That's my guess, too, Lisch (5) and Liddell (7). I think Lisch has enough to catch Highmark, but not Douglass, and that Liddell won't reach Highmark. The numbers say that to top Scotty, Lisch needs to average about 14-16 PPG based on how many more games we play, and that's right in his wheelhouse. It will be close, and he might not get it if he misses any games with injuries. To beat Highmark, Tommie would need to average in the high teens- not impossible, but we just don't score enough as a team to make me think he'll do it.

[davidlee]

One thing to keep in mind when you look at SLU's All-time point leaders is the top five on the list played four years. Harry Rogers ,6th on the list, only played three years because freshman were not eligble back then.

Most of the members on this board never got to see Harry play but he was something special. He was around 6'7" and skinning. He could play the 1, 2 , 3, 4, and even the 5 position. He could do it all.

[jimbofive]

One thing to keep in mind when you look at SLU's All-time point leaders is the top five on the list played four years. Harry Rogers ,6th on the list, only played three years because freshman were not eligble back then.

Most of the members on this board never got to see Harry play but he was something special. He was around 6'7" and skinning. He could play the 1, 2 , 3, 4, and even the 5 position. He could do it all.

That being said... SUCKA FOOL GON' GET PASSED!

[Taj79]

Of the twenty players listed (throwing out the two under discussion), only three (Perry, Cobbin, Ian) are what I would term "recent" players. Putting a ten year window on the term "recent." Kind of stands in a unique testimony to the state of the program recently, eh?. Just a poor note on my part.

As for the discussion, Lisch would need 278 points over the course of this season to reach the #5 spot. I don't know how many games we have left right now but let's say its 15. That means he would need to average about 18/19 ppg over that time to get there. Possible? Sure. Probable? I'm thinking not. the defenses in the A10 know Kevin better than anyone and also know the Bills make-up --- a lot of freshmen. He will be hard pressed to get that, I think. He will easily pass Rogers to attain the sixth spot in my book.

Liddell would need 124 points over those same 15 games to pass Rogers as well. That isn't even 10 ppg, which I think Tommie can easily pull off. And he's only 55 behind Lisch. Who has a hot night, who doesn't? In the end, I think it will balance out and Kevin will maintain the lead. So Kevin will become the new sixth ranked scorer and Liddell will finish his career as the 7th place man, bumping Rogers to 8th and Boushka to 9th.

[Box and Won]

Of the twenty players listed (throwing out the two under discussion), only three (Perry, Cobbin, Ian) are what I would term "recent" players. Putting a ten year window on the term "recent." Kind of stands in a unique testimony to the state of the program recently, eh?. Just a poor note on my part.

In what year were freshmen allowed to play? I'm sure we'd have more older players toward the top of the list had they been able to play all four years.

[slufanskip]

After reading Timmerman's most recent blog post, I was inspired to look more into the all-time scoring leaders and SLU and see where Kevin and Tommie were and how high they might reach. Here's the list:

Total Points

1. Anthony Bonner (’86-90) 1,972

2. Erwin Claggett (’92-95) 1,910

3. Roland Gray (’85-89) 1,880

4. Monroe Douglass (’85-89) 1,877

5. Scott Highmark (’92-95) 1,703

6. Harry Rogers (’70-73) 1,491

7. Dick Boushka (’52-55) 1,440

8. Kevin Lisch (2006-09) 1,422

9. Ed Macauley (’45-49) 1,402

10. Joe Wiley (’67-70) 1,368

11. Tommie Liddell, III (2006-09) 1,367

12. Marque Perry (2000-03) 1,358

13. Luther Burden (’82-85) 1,349

14. Lewis McKinney (’73-76) 1,325

15. Jim Irving (’68-71) 1,269

16. Carl Johnson (’74-78) 1,187

17. Jim McLaughlin (’53-56) 1,170

18. Bob Ferry (’56-59) 1,128

19. Jack Mimlitz (’55-58) 1,116

20. Virgel Cobbin (’96-99) 1,107

21. David Burns (’79-81) 1,049

22. Ian Vouyoukas (2003-07) 1,046

So after crunching some numbers and looking at the remaining games (based on if we make the A10 Tournament and how far we go), here are the averages they need in order to tie for the top spot with Bonner:

17: Lisch 32.4, Liddell 35.6 - No A10 Tournament

18: Lisch 30.6, Liddell 33.6 - A10 1st Round

19: Lisch 28.9, Liddell 31.8 - A10 2nd Round

20: Lisch 27.5, Liddell 30.3 - A10 3rd Round

21: Lisch 26.2, Liddell 28.8 - A10 Final

22: Lisch 25.0, Liddell 27.5 - Postseason Tournament

23: Lisch 23.9, Liddell 26.3 - Postseason Tournament

24: Lisch 22.9, Liddell 25.2 - Postseason Tournament

Now, we could still potentially play in the NIT or CBI and not make the A10 final (it's possible, if not likely), so that's why I just say Postseason Tournament after A10 final. I also stopped at 24 because anything past that would require the very late rounds of the NIT or NCAA tournament.

So, any guesses as to where will each end up on the list?

I'm going to say 5th and 7th. Kevin will finish with 1716 and Tommie will finish with 1671. This says alot about UB as a recruiter. We will have two players who each score over 1600 career points over 4 years together and they never play in an NCAA tourney game (unless of course something amazing happens and we make it this year)

[GMan Alum]

Pistol, so glad you are working hard (hardly working?) today. Your boss must be proud!

I say, Kevin 6th and Tommie 7th.

I have personally seen 18 of the 22 on the top list and a team with Bonner, Jimmy Irving, Joe Wiley, Harry Rogers and Claggett on the floor at the same time would be incredibly fun to watch. Marque Perry and Monroe Douglass as the 6th & 7th man in case the others got tired. Not sure if any of them would ever pass the ball, but I can't imagine any team defending this crew. And Spoon would have to be the coach.

[RUBillsFan]

Of the twenty players listed (throwing out the two under discussion), only three (Perry, Cobbin, Ian) are what I would term "recent" players. Putting a ten year window on the term "recent." Kind of stands in a unique testimony to the state of the program recently, eh?. Just a poor note on my part.

Among other recent players, Josh Fisher just missed with 965 career points. He probably could have broken 1000, but was more about giving others opportunities to score as he leads the Bills all time in assists with 436.

Still 5 out of 22 players in the "recent" period is just under 23% meanwhile the list goes back to a player who played 60 years ago. Therefore 23% of the players on the list have come from the "recent" period which is only 16.7% of the list's history. I would say that it says more about the overall state of the program then the recent state. The fact that the Bills only have 24 guys who have scored over 1000 points is sort of disappointing.

Another fun thing is to predict where the current freshman could finish on the scoring list or other lists (assuming they all stick around). I think Kwmain, Conklin, and Willie all have potential to break 1000 points. Willie or Brett could probably break Ian Vouyoukas's all time record for blocks at 135. Kwmain probably has a shot at Fisher's assist record or maybe Bonner's steals record of 192. Conklin and/or Thompson could get pretty high up on the rebound list as well.

[Cowboy]

We will have two players who each score over 1600 career points over 4 years together and they never play in an NCAA tourney game (unless of course something amazing happens and we make it this year)

-that this could happen is downright amazing in a terrible, terrible way

-sorry to repeat, but when ub landed these two, i thought we had turned a BIG corner

[Pistol]

Pistol, so glad you are working hard (hardly working?) today. Your boss must be proud!

I say, Kevin 6th and Tommie 7th.

I have personally seen 18 of the 22 on the top list and a team with Bonner, Jimmy Irving, Joe Wiley, Harry Rogers and Claggett on the floor at the same time would be incredibly fun to watch. Marque Perry and Monroe Douglass as the 6th & 7th man in case the others got tired. Not sure if any of them would ever pass the ball, but I can't imagine any team defending this crew. And Spoon would have to be the coach.

My boss is in Indianapolis. If he were here and happened to walk by, he would have seen me hitting a calculator, so he would have been impressed if anything.

It's going to be close if Kevin tops Highmark, which would make him 5th. The fewest games we could play is 17, so that's 16.6 PPG he'll need to average to pass him. I'm guessing we play at least 18, so that's 15.7 a game. I hope he does it because that means he'll finally start to get hot.

Like the rest of you, I'm also disappointed at the lack of recent players on here. The media guide only goes 20 deep (I added Lisch and Liddell), so Ian won't even be included next year.

[Major Majerus]

After reading Timmerman's most recent blog post, I was inspired to look more into the all-time scoring leaders and SLU and see where Kevin and Tommie were and how high they might reach. Here's the list:

I have a problem with the list - for many years, freshmen could only play freshman ball. Thus we need 2 lists...maybe 3 to accomodate the 2 year players from juco. Harry Rogers is pretty far up and he only played 3 years varsity; also I doubt the Bills got any NCAA or NIT play during his years. Douglas, Gray, and Bonner all had 4 years and 2 deep NIT runs. When you see a guy's lifetime ML baseball stats, they separate post season from regulare season. I thought Clags would turn out to be the lifetime leader after his career, but he never had the 2 deep NIT runs. Maybe the athletic dep't. will someday have an intern who can arrange the stats to compare apples to apples. But that will probably be long after I'm dust to dust...

[Quality Is Job 1]

Of the twenty players listed (throwing out the two under discussion), only three (Perry, Cobbin, Ian) are what I would term "recent" players. Putting a ten year window on the term "recent." Kind of stands in a unique testimony to the state of the program recently, eh?. Just a poor note on my part.

As for the discussion, Lisch would need 278 points over the course of this season to reach the #5 spot. I don't know how many games we have left right now but let's say its 15. That means he would need to average about 18/19 ppg over that time to get there. Possible? Sure. Probable? I'm thinking not. the defenses in the A10 know Kevin better than anyone and also know the Bills make-up --- a lot of freshmen. He will be hard pressed to get that, I think. He will easily pass Rogers to attain the sixth spot in my book.

Liddell would need 124 points over those same 15 games to pass Rogers as well. That isn't even 10 ppg, which I think Tommie can easily pull off. And he's only 55 behind Lisch. Who has a hot night, who doesn't? In the end, I think it will balance out and Kevin will maintain the lead. So Kevin will become the new sixth ranked scorer and Liddell will finish his career as the 7th place man, bumping Rogers to 8th and Boushka to 9th.

Taj, there are a minimum of 17 games left this season -- 18 provided the Bills qualify for the A-10 Tournament. I suspect they'll finish 5 & 6 or 5 & 7, barring injury.

[RUBillsFan]

Like the rest of you, I'm also disappointed at the lack of recent players on here. The media guide only goes 20 deep (I added Lisch and Liddell), so Ian won't even be included next year.

I've been doing some looking into the record books and trying to compile more comprehensive lists than those in the media guide.

After pistols numbers the list goes...

23. Jeff Harris 1,037

24. Bob Cole 1,018

Then as far as I can tell (with limited access to statistics going back past '82)

25 (tie). Donnie Dobbs 965

25 (tie). Josh Fisher 965

27. Justin Love 931

28. Rich Niemann 928

29. Harold Alcorn 910

30. Quitman Dillard 851

[Cowboy]

-can someone find the # of games ian played?

-i tried with no success on slu's webstie

-the blocked shot record has me wondering and i am wondering the # of games to get to blocks per game

-fwiw, willie is avgering 1 block per game at this point

[bonwich]

-that this could happen is downright amazing in a terrible, terrible way

-sorry to repeat, but when ub landed these two, i thought we had turned a BIG corner

Well, we did. Or should have. But there was this whole "Hey, you'll be playing at least three years of your career in a brand-new, state-of-the-art arena" that opposing coaches no doubt flung in the faces of every recruit Brad tried to bring in for the years thereafter. Brad may not have been a great recruiter, but it's hard to tell, because I have no doubt that was one of the single largest impediments to recruiting after he landed those two.

[RUBillsFan]

-can someone find the # of games ian played?

-i tried with no success on slu's webstie

-the blocked shot record has me wondering and i am wondering the # of games to get to blocks per game

-fwiw, willie is avgering 1 block per game at this point

Ian played in 110 games during his career and had a total of 135 blocks which is good for 1.22 blocks per game. Now Willie has 13 blocks in 13 games for 1.0 block per game. However, his freshman year Ian had just 0.14 blocks per game. Therefore, I think Willie is well on his way.

Now Melvin Robinson who is #2 on the blocks list had 127 in just 69 games for 1.84 each game. Therefore, he was obviously a better shot blocker than Ian.

I used this site (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/saint-louis/ian-vouyoukas) to find some of the info and compiled other info.

[davidnark]

Well, we did. Or should have. But there was this whole "Hey, you'll be playing at least three years of your career in a brand-new, state-of-the-art arena" that opposing coaches no doubt flung in the faces of every recruit Brad tried to bring in for the years thereafter. Brad may not have been a great recruiter, but it's hard to tell, because I have no doubt that was one of the single largest impediments to recruiting after he landed those two.

Bonwich, if you think that is the root of Brad's recruiting failures, then I have an elevator pass I want to sell you.

[billiken_roy]

Well, we did. Or should have. But there was this whole "Hey, you'll be playing at least three years of your career in a brand-new, state-of-the-art arena" that opposing coaches no doubt flung in the faces of every recruit Brad tried to bring in for the years thereafter. Brad may not have been a great recruiter, but it's hard to tell, because I have no doubt that was one of the single largest impediments to recruiting after he landed those two.

it's my opinion that soderberg got greedy after he landed kevin and tommie. he foolishly believed other higher talents would want to play with them and held out for better recruits and then finished second far too often. same thing cursed romar.

now bonwich may be right that had he had that advantage maybe he wouldnt have finished second as much, but the fact is one of the best things about rickma is he obviously knows when to fold his hand and move on. rickma's job recruiting these past two seasons has the appearances of being outstanding and we all know there were even better kids (i.e. suggs for one) that he coveted but wisely moved on rather than wait around.

soderberg and romar both would have been far more successful here had they done the same.

[bonwich]

Bonwich, if you think that is the root of Brad's recruiting failures, then I have an elevator pass I want to sell you.

I think you're misinterpreting. The overall failure of the University to live up to the promises Brad made to Tommie and Kevin re: a new arena wasn't the root of Brad's recruiting problems -- it merely compounded them, on an almost exponential basis.

The U. hired Brad as an alleged up-and-comer, and Brad's best ammo for recruiting was that the U. had made this great commitment to be a "top 40" program, blah blah blah, and by the way we've announced this really fabulous new arena as a sign of that commitment. But other than that commitment, Brad had bupkis to build on in attracting recruits. No long-term basketball tradition, no major community support, no major TV exposure. So he had to base lots of recruiting on his own work ethic, faith commitment, etc. -- and the great Jesuit education the kids would get. And "things will get better," because we've committed to this wonderful new arena.

Except the years dragged on and there was no new arena and there was constant static about the alleged problems playing at Kielvis. So Brad's stuck recruiting the overweight guys who promise to lose weight and the trick knees and the unknown foreign guys and all the other "projects" -- because really, who the hell would really want to come to SLU to play basketball.

Now, on the other hand, had Tommie and Kevin been playing in Chaifetz by their sophomore years, isn't it at least conceivable that Brad's recruiting might have ended up a bit better?

[davidnark]

Except the years dragged on and there was no new arena and there was constant static about the alleged problems playing at Kielvis. So Brad's stuck recruiting the overweight guys who promise to lose weight and the trick knees and the unknown foreign guys and all the other "projects" -- because really, who the hell would really want to come to SLU to play basketball.

I guess I just don't see it that way. I see a coach who didn't offer Ahearn and Harrelson and waited months to offer Matt Shaw, but who offered Dustin Maguire the summer before his junior year. Sure, the administrative struggles didn't help his recruiting efforts, but Soderberg ultimately failed by the decisions he made in regard to the kids he could and couldn't have realistically landed.

[GoBills]

Coach Soderberg certainly deserves credit for landing Tommie and Kevin on his watch, although they may have come here anyway. But he had the opportunity to sell to the guys who would now by juniors - that they could play two years in a new arena and he could sell to the kids who would now be sophomores, that they could play three years in the new arena. He really missed an opportunity there with those two recruiting classes and was unable to land any quality after Tommie and Kevin. He failed to get a decent point guard, power forward and center (after Ian graduated) to play alongside Tommie and Kevin.