grave overreactions to SIUC game

[billiken_roy]

Was kevin the same in his first month of D-1 ball as he was in the last month of his high school career? I only ask because it took some time for him to seemingly get adjusted (as evidenced by taking a month or so to crack the starting lineup).

i disagree. kevin was limited to his role on the team by soderberg, but i thought when he got the time and assignments, he was forcing us to ask, "why isnt kevin starting" we should put the ball in kevin's hands more. his attitude towards offense hasnt changed all that much from day one.

[courtside]

trust me, cotto can shoot it. what is missing is that killer instinct that i saw last year at alton. the supremely confident cold blooded scorer look isnt there anymore. lisch never lost that from one level to the next. of the candidates, cotto is the logical choice imo. but he seems to be a shell of the personality i saw last year.

Kevin Lisch struggled a lot the first half of his Frosh year. There was even silly discussion on this board with frequency whether or not Lisch was as good as you, Roy, suggested from high school. And, Lisch was more highly recruited than any of the current Freshman. So, one could easily conclude that there will be plenty of ups and downs throughout the season and by the end of the season the Frosh will be better. That's how it works. Cotto will be much better by the end of this year and next year than now or in the next several games, as long as he has a good attitude and works.

People continue to underestimate the transition from high school and AAU ball to the college game. It will take a season to do that, and for some, longer. A lot of people would like to see SLU win big with Lisch and Liddell as Seniors, but SLU has little to nothing else in the Senior class, Junior class, and Sophomore class. That's way too big of a hole and gap.

As SLU combines back to back to back classes of solid to very good recruits, it will be able to sustain and improve. That takes time when you completely whiff for years and years.

[willie]

i disagree. kevin was limited to his role on the team by soderberg, but i thought when he got the time and assignments, he was forcing us to ask, "why isnt kevin starting" we should put the ball in kevin's hands more. his attitude towards offense hasnt changed all that much from day one.

With all due respect I think Kevin's problem on the offensive end is that the ball is in his hand too much. Kevin is a shooter who needs to play into open space. He is much easier to guard with the ball in his hands. If I were coaching this team Tommie would be my backup point. I think he has become stronger with the ball since his sophmore year. What I really can't figure out is why everybody is blowing by Kevin on the defensive end. I actually hope he's hurt because maybe he'll get over that.

[courtside]

But at the end of the day, it's still Indiana. Complete mess or not, it would surprise me if it took Crean 5 years to be successful. It would further surprise me if the fans are that patient.

I believe Crean will be successful.

Indiana fans know that this year and next year are complete washouts. It's unprecedented there. Crean knows how to say and do the types of things to endear him to the IU faithful. He is a walking PR machine with complete attention to detail. Fans will be patient, and he'll get it going before 5 years. The biggest reason why he'll get it going is recruiting. He'll recruit well there.

[Billikan]

first, your last statement "he will get better" is absolutely the bottom line truth.

that said, to try to translate what your total post said, cotto has become scared/shy possibly because of staff input and limitations? could you clarify your thoughts more kan? thanks.

Basically, I am saying that the leap from having a total green light in a fairly low key high school enviroment to being a freshman on a D1 team that expects shot selection discipline is a giant one and it will take time for him to feel comfortable. Very few good D1 teams today have the Loyola Marymount fire at will mentality so almost every player has to adapt. Often those players sit for a year or two and learn from the upperclassmen. Our freshmen have two guys who are mentoring them but they have been thrown into the fire probably before they are completely ready. I have no doubt that he will develop a niche as a shooter and a scorer but it will take some time.

[billiken_roy]

With all due respect I think Kevin's problem on the offensive end is that the ball is in his hand too much. Kevin is a shooter who needs to play into open space. He is much easier to guard with the ball in his hands. If I were coaching this team Tommie would be my backup point. I think he has become stronger with the ball since his sophmore year. What I really can't figure out is why everybody is blowing by Kevin on the defensive end. I actually hope he's hurt because maybe he'll get over that.

i am hesitant to say this because it is third hand info, but i was told by a very good and credible source that the injury to his tailbone indeed could take up to 3-4 weeks before it truly did not affect the way he feels and moves about. that said, i do not have any inside information on whether that is the case with kevin or not and if he is in deed still experiencing discomfort. he would never admit it anyway. so no one could even ask him and get an answer.

[jimbofive]

Thompsons drive was a better move than I've ever seen out of a Billiken center over 6'5." Harris and Dobbs had better moves but were basically guards........

Having said all that the charge call on Brett was one of the few that the refs got right.......

Yeah, I was very impressed with that move as well, and was at first upset, but the review showed that Dillard, all 5'10" 165 of him had his feet set in plenty of time. Gutsy play on Dillard's part, and not a bad one on Thompson's. I'd rather see him attacking like that and then learn to pick his spots as experience comes. I think big Willie tries to dunk that one. The more tenacious our bigs the better, even if it means some silly fouls at first.

[Clock_Tower]

i am hesitant to say this because it is third hand info, but i was told by a very good and credible source that the injury to his tailbone indeed could take up to 3-4 weeks before it truly did not affect the way he feels and moves about. that said, i do not have any inside information on whether that is the case with kevin or not and if he is in deed still experiencing discomfort. he would never admit it anyway. so no one could even ask him and get an answer.

It is obvious that KL is playing hurt. I sure hope that is the case (will resume his old form) as opposed to him having lost confidence (may not resume his old form). Did not watch all of the game last night but I did hear the announces say, on several occasions about SIUC, "that was a SENIOR move" or "he is playing like a SENIOR". I did not hear the same about our team. As bad as they played (turnovers and poor shooting), we were down by only late in the second half. Aside from that, not much more hope from last night's performance.

As to being patient, I clearly understand that our team is loaded with Freshmen, I will (for the most part) continue to be patient, I did not predict 20 wins, but I do expect to see improvement - both as a team and individually. Not seeing it yet. Last year, I did not see improvement from AK, BH and others. Regarding TL, he improved in some areas last year but regressed in others. Have not seen an improvement from last year with TL. Will wait further to judge if TL has improved or not. This year, BE has not improved. Am hoping injury is the reason why KL is not playing well. The point is, though, that we don't need TL and KL to carry the team like Larry Hughes, etc. but rather just play to their normal and customary levels. Wide-open shots need to be made. KL had the ball taken from him several times. KL did another poor job defending. If he is injured, then get someone else to guard their best guy.

Good freshmen are inconsistent and make mistakes over the season. They play well for 2/3's of the game but not the other 1/3. Freshmen are not inherently bad every game. They make a great basket only to get beat and give up a layup on the other other. Aside from BC, am still waiting for more good moments. They are not playing 2/3 of the game well while making bad decisions and giving poor performances the rest of the game. Will still be patient but this is not football where you need real depth from multiple recruiting classes. 2 good Seniors (out of 5) should be helping us win against the likes of Kent State, Detroit, Nebraska and/or SIUC. Not Top 25 teams in this list.

Look at SLU's rosters these past 30 years. Very few years has SLU every had 5 good players out on the floor at once. Usually, we only have 2 or 3 good players each year anyway. Excuses need to stop soon and this team needs to improve come January 1st.

[brianstl]

Cut the crap about people being upset about last night because they are worried about their predictions of 20 or more wins going down the drain. That is complete BS and Cheeseman has been pushing it for a couple of years now. People pick 20+ wins because they are being optimistic and they hope everything goes right for the team. If you are a fan you normally hope for the best outcome. I picked 24, but I would have never gone and placed money on anything close to that. I could really care less if my prediction is right or wrong.

People reacted like they did because that game was third crap can performance in a row.

[jimbofive]

Cut the crap about people being upset about last night because they are worried about their predictions of 20 or more wins going down the drain. That is complete BS and Cheeseman has been pushing it for a couple of years now. People pick 20+ wins because they are being optimistic and they hope everything goes right for the team. If you are a fan you normally hope for the best outcome. I picked 24, but I would have never gone and placed money on anything close to that. I could really care less if my prediction is right or wrong.

People reacted like they did because that game was third crap can performance in a row.

Absolutely. If I was really betting, I'd be real close to .500. But postulating, I'm always going to be overly optimistic about something I care about. I absolutely take each game at a time and the last 3 have been crap. I don't care if we have a losing season, as long as we're firing on all cylinders at the end and showing progress along the way. The only problem is, last night, NO ONE showed progress. I don't think anyone thinks we've got a shot at an at large bid. But we have as much talent as anyone. And last night just sucked, and that's the end of it.

[Westy03]

It is obvious that KL is playing hurt. I sure hope that is the case (will resume his old form) as opposed to him having lost confidence (may not resume his old form). Did not watch all of the game last night but I did hear the announces say, on several occasions about SIUC, "that was a SENIOR move" or "he is playing like a SENIOR". I did not hear the same about our team. As bad as they played (turnovers and poor shooting), we were down by only late in the second half. Aside from that, not much more hope from last night's performance.

As to being patient, I clearly understand that our team is loaded with Freshmen, I will (for the most part) continue to be patient, I did not predict 20 wins, but I do expect to see improvement - both as a team and individually. Not seeing it yet. Last year, I did not see improvement from AK, BH and others. Regarding TL, he improved in some areas last year but regressed in others. Have not seen an improvement from last year with TL. Will wait further to judge if TL has improved or not. This year, BE has not improved. Am hoping injury is the reason why KL is not playing well. The point is, though, that we don't need TL and KL to carry the team like Larry Hughes, etc. but rather just play to their normal and customary levels. Wide-open shots need to be made. KL had the ball taken from him several times. KL did another poor job defending. If he is injured, then get someone else to guard their best guy.

Good freshmen are inconsistent and make mistakes over the season. They play well for 2/3's of the game but not the other 1/3. Freshmen are not inherently bad every game. They make a great basket only to get beat and give up a layup on the other other. Aside from BC, am still waiting for more good moments. They are not playing 2/3 of the game well while making bad decisions and giving poor performances the rest of the game. Will still be patient but this is not football where you need real depth from multiple recruiting classes. 2 good Seniors (out of 5) should be helping us win against the likes of Kent State, Detroit, Nebraska and/or SIUC. Not Top 25 teams in this list.

Look at SLU's rosters these past 30 years. Very few years has SLU every had 5 good players out on the floor at once. Usually, we only have 2 or 3 good players each year anyway. Excuses need to stop soon and this team needs to improve come January 1st.

I agree for the most part on what you are saying but the freshmen have played 3 road games in the past 13 or so days, its going to take A LOT more time, practice, and experience for them to improve the way you and everyone else wants them to. They will only learn from this past roadtrip.

[cheeseman]

if someone has the solution for lisch and liddell to not get the hell beat out of them, i sure would like to hear it. the answer imo is what conklin, mitchell and maybe cotto, cassity, reed and thompson will be in four years. i just dont see it changing this year. to just say "he has to figure it out" is just not going to happen and isnt fair. they cant make it happen by themselves. you are asking for them to be lebron or larry hughes. they are as good as they get and while that is very good, it isnt good enough to play 2 on 5 successfully against even mediocre teams like siu, nebraska, detroit and kent state. right now i dread dayton and xavier coming to town as they are far better teams than our four losses.

I understand your point but somebody has to figure it out. Maybe they don't handle the ball so much on the dribble and work at getting free rather than being the focal point with the ball. Maybe the answer is that KM has to shoot more or RC has to play more. All it will take is one guard to show that they can hit the open shot and the defenses will have to adjust accordingly. I do have to admit that some of the shots that KL are taking are way out of his range - 4-5 feet behind the 3pt arc. TL - he is just clanking shots even when he has a good look.

[moytoy12]

RM's system doesn't leave a lot of room for error. Meaning, if we do not have a high rate of efficiency, we are going to look like crap. However, in a different system (e.g. Anderson at Missouri), there could be room for some inefficiency without looking like a jumbled mess.

I'm not knocking RM's success, but man, when the kids don't run his system right it's an absolute horror show to watch. You'd think there would be some way to ease the system in over the course of a season and build progressively.

[cheeseman]

Cut the crap about people being upset about last night because they are worried about their predictions of 20 or more wins going down the drain. That is complete BS and Cheeseman has been pushing it for a couple of years now. People pick 20+ wins because they are being optimistic and they hope everything goes right for the team. If you are a fan you normally hope for the best outcome. I picked 24, but I would have never gone and placed money on anything close to that. I could really care less if my prediction is right or wrong.

People reacted like they did because that game was third crap can performance in a row.

I am not pushing anything - my point is simply that if you make a prediction then it should be based on sound reasoning. If you are making predictions on wild a$$ expectations then maybe we need two threads - 1. for honest predictions and 2 for wild a$$ predictions.

I will grant you that some of the negative comments that are made are made in the heat of the moment.

[kshoe]

I am not pushing anything - my point is simply that if you make a prediction then it should be based on sound reasoning. If you are making predictions on wild a$$ expectations then maybe we need two threads - 1. for honest predictions and 2 for wild a$$ predictions.

I will grant you that some of the negative comments that are made are made in the heat of the moment.

Who cares about the predictin contest? Its just a silly little contest with no reward for winning.

What matters is how poorly this team has played the last 3 games against mediocre competition. If we play like this the rest of the year we will be fortunate to win all the "buy" games but will have trouble getting 6 wins in a mediocre A-10 this year. Hopefully something changes soon.

[kevinfootes]

I don't really get the vicious comments about the game last night. Yes, I watched it, and admit that I missed the first part of the game -- the ugliest part, we had 2 points after 9 minutes, I believe. The TV stat said we were 1 for 15 from the field at that point. What do you expect? We never recovered, though we did get it down to 4 points in the second half.

This game was completely predictable, in fact I told a friend at 6 pm last night that we would lose by 18 or 20. But you better believe it, we need to keep this series alive. This was a good experience, though we lost. I just don't get the highly negative remarks, the very surprised reactions. Our shooting was terrible, and until we shoot better, we will lose to decent teams on the road, period. Yes, they play aggressive, physical defense, but last night so did we; I never felt the reffing was all that bad, to be honest. Certainly not as terrible as 2 years ago, when I was in the building. What is the big shock??

Whenever I need a quick pick-me-up, I point my browser over to billikens.com. Then I realize my little life is not all that bad after all!

Doc, be careful! There are a few folks on here who won't put up with not blaming it on the refs.

Besides, everyone knows SLU lost the game because of the StL Post-Dispatch.

[GoBills]

I heard Kevin Slaten, who is certainly no friend of the SLU program, describe how terrible the officiating was. Obviously that's not the reason the Bills lost the game, but when he heard him ripping it, you know it was bad.

[Timmy]

I heard Kevin Slaten, who is certainly no friend of the SLU program, describe how terrible the officiating was. Obviously that's not the reason the Bills lost the game, but when he heard him ripping it, you know it was bad.

Slaten blaming the officials? The next thing you're going to tell me is that the sun is going to rise in the East tomorrow morning.

[drkelsey55]

Actually I was concerned about the out come as soon as I saw that we had Tommy and Kevin running the point most of the night. Was not a good idea. KM has to run the point and we have to take our lumps until he gets it down right. He is our point guard of the future, use him now and let him learn the hard way.

If Kevin and Tommy cann't get their shooting eye going play 5 freshman and lets start taking out losses while we get ready for the future. I find it hard to even mention Barry, but he belongs on the bench.

May told us before the game we had some players that where not 100%, but that they would play. He mentioned no names. If they are not 100%, let the sit and get well.

Just my thoughts.

[GoBills]

Slaten doesn't seem to do it often when SLU is involved, that's for sure.

[cardfan]

I was there, the officiating was atrocious, the Carbondale people obnoxious.

EDIT: Is it just me, or is SIU arena a dump? I thought they were supposed to remodel/renovate it sometime. We should be crushing these guys every year.

Why would the venue have anything to do with their skill? If that's the case, then shouldn't we be killing everyone else? It always amazes me when people make comments like this, it always is a good indicator you know absolutely nothing about the game.

[Pistol]

Why would the venue have anything to do with their skill? If that's the case, then shouldn't we be killing everyone else? It always amazes me when people make comments like this, it always is a good indicator you know absolutely nothing about the game.

Is this a serious post?

No rational person here would ever imply that a building actually affects a player's skill, but the way a team plays on a given night is absolutely affected by the surroundings. Atmosphere, fans, officiating- it all plays at least a small part in performance. Who said that Carbondale's gym actually made our players less skilled?

Sounds like your basic interpretation of sports is skewed by video games or something. But we need you here to help us, since we "know absolutely nothing about the game." If you ever go to games, maybe you'd understand.

[billiken_roy]

Why would the venue have anything to do with their skill? If that's the case, then shouldn't we be killing everyone else? It always amazes me when people make comments like this, it always is a good indicator you know absolutely nothing about the game.

cardfan, i think soderball's post was just a stream of thoughts. i.e. his statement about your horrible arena had nothing to do with his assessment of the basketball skills of your basketball team (notice i said basketball skills, not wrestling).

[cardfan]

Is this a serious post?

No rational person here would ever imply that a building actually affects a player's skill, but the way a team plays on a given night is absolutely affected by the surroundings. Atmosphere, fans, officiating- it all plays at least a small part in performance. Who said that Carbondale's gym actually made our players less skilled?

Sounds like your basic interpretation of sports is skewed by video games or something. But we need you here to help us, since we "know absolutely nothing about the game." If you ever go to games, maybe you'd understand.

But that wasn't his refrence. He was implying that the general state of the arena "a dump" should be the reason why SLU should be "crushing" SIU every year. The atmosphere, fan attendace, fan proximity to the floor, ref's, etc was never mentioned. Maybe if that's what he meant, that's what he should have said. I'm glad you recognize the difference, maybe you can help him out.

My interpretation of sports is exactly the way it should be. I don't pass judgements on a program based on it's venue so spare me the sarcasm.

[Pistol]

But that wasn't his refrence. He was implying that the general state of the arena "a dump" should be the reason why SLU should be "crushing" SIU every year. The atmosphere, fan attendace, fan proximity to the floor, ref's, etc was never mentioned. Maybe if that's what he meant, that's what he should have said. I'm glad you recognize the difference, maybe you can help him out.

My interpretation of sports is exactly the way it should be. I don't pass judgements on a program based on it's venue so spare me the sarcasm.

I guess I didn't read it like that. This whole thread, people have been talking about officiating and the atmosphere there. I read his last post not as cause and effect, but more like stream of consciousness, like this:

1. The arena is a dump.

2. We should be crushing these guys every year.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't pick up on the causation. Probably could have used a paragraph break. But no, the arena itself is not the reason we're losing there.