Recruiting dilemma

[Nate Latsch]

I was talking to someone in Columbia this weekend with some ties to several Division I programs. He was asking me about Brad Soderberg's contract situation and then brought up the following problem regarding SLU's recruiting.

He said one of his friends is an assistant coach at a BCS conference school that is currently recruiting some of the top kids in the junior class in the St. Louis area.

He said when the school is recruiting these kids they ask who else is recruiting the kid. Then they bring up the fact that Soderberg has two years left on his contract, while his school has its head coach signed for X number of years beyond that.

Which leads to the question of why would a recruit want to go to a school if its coach might not be there much longer.

I've said before I think SLU needs to go in a new direction now, but I doubt they will. I don't think anybody has the money to buy out Brad's contract and then throw money around to try to bring in a new coach.

So unless Soderberg is fired or gets a contract extension — which he's done nothing to deserve, imo — the coach is a lame duck until his contract runs out, and recruits would be in a tough position to sign with SLU until the issue is resolved one way or the other.

- Nate

[Westy03]

But if he snags the top recruits away from the BCS schools, does that warrant an extension?

[willie]

I agree Brad's contract is a dilemma. I don't know how you can currently give him a contract extension unless he would agree to a relatively modest buy out clause.

[Taj79]

What's your point, Nate? I ask that facetiously. I think in the past, folks like billiken-roy and others, have pointed out that some recruiters use sleazy tactics and throw all they can at a recruit to sway him to their side. This is just another example of that. It's a reality. All's fair in love and war ... And recruiting. It's just another example of what you are up against. Personally, if someone is trying to sell ME anything and its by the negativity of the other guy's product, he usually gets no sale.

The Soderberg contract situation is just another layer we have to work through. So do a lot of folks. I know Cheryl knows. Maybe he can then say to a kid, if you sign with us, I get an extention based on recruiting results and I'm with you for the duration, how much more integral can the kid be?

[Westy03]

Your last point is what I was gearing towards.

[p diddy]

The worst thing that can happen was to have a lame-duck coach in the last year of his contract. We all remember what happened to rich grawer when he reached that status, especially with a new and very ambitious AD looking to make her mark. We saw how that whole deal turned out. The '91 season was one of the worst experiences that a slu fan can be a part of.

bad boyz for life

[slu72]

The successful BCS programs recruiting these kids are first going to say, "SLU? What the hell have they done lately. Mediocre." Then probably lay something like UB's gone after this year.

[satrap]

I guess that eliminates Jeff Peterson to Iowa. Alford is certainly a potential lame-duck in IA city.

[Kahok]

What would you tell a kid you are recruiting, If my livelyhood was based on getting recruits I would say the same thing, unfortunately it is true. It is time for the University to s*** or get off the pot. Either give him an extention so that can not be used against him or fire him and bring in someone else. Why would a kid that likes Brad sign here if he is only going to be here another year or two.

[3star_recruit]

Good point. Their AD basically delivered an ultimatum yesterday that Alford, despite losing a 21 ppg scorer, must take them to the NCAA's next year. I'm sure that something Peterson and his dad are considering carefully.

[Billikan]

This type of post is exactly what our competitors for players love to see. Did your friend who is recruiting for other schools suggest that you post that on the Billiken board so you could hurt the Billiken recruiting? Why come on the Billiken board and post this negative stuff and hammer our coach? Obviously, this is a chicken and egg thing. If we can get the good players then Brad's tenure will be secure. The fact that certain media types want to hurt the program so they post negative things about the coach does not help but I think Brad is tough enough to overcome it.

I used to think you were a really good and measured voice at the PD and now you have become Bernie M.-- What has happened? Is it in the water down there or something?

[courtside]

>This type of post is exactly what our competitors for

>players love to see. Did your friend who is recruiting for

>other schools suggest that you post that on the Billiken

>board so you could hurt the Billiken recruiting? Why come on

>the Billiken board and post this negative stuff and hammer

>our coach? Obviously, this is a chicken and egg thing. If we

>can get the good players then Brad's tenure will be secure.

>The fact that certain media types want to hurt the program

>so they post negative things about the coach does not help

>but I think Brad is tough enough to overcome it.

>

>I used to think you were a really good and measured voice at

>the PD and now you have become Bernie M.-- What has

>happened? Is it in the water down there or something?

Yep....It's Nate's fault. No school would have ever figured this out on their own recruiting against SLU, because it has never happened before years and years. This doesn't go on all across the country, where it is used against coaches and programs in recruiting, and also the reason why other coaches constantly get extensisons....And, every school looks here first when they recruit, and uses this board as a big reason to sign or not to sign. This is the only board where 100% of the posters are not living in standard-less pleasantville....just a majority. No other school's board has trolls with multiple monikers who come after losses for about 24 hours. None. Never.

Nate, it's your fault. How do you sleep at night? Now other schools can use this against Soderberg, and they never would have done it had you not posted it here. Never.

[alameda bob]

All I know about this type of subject came from talking to Justin Love's Dad about his SLU career. He was recruited by Spoon to play with Larrry Hughes. Then Spoon & Hughes left and Romar arrived. Mr. Love has nothing but great things to say about his son's experience at SLU. I'm surprised he hasn't recruited any more SF kids to go back there, he raved about all the positives at SLU to me.

My point is maybe some parents consider the SCHOOL part of the equation more than who is coaching there and pass that on to their kids. Of course in this case Justin had been to JC for 2 years, and was more mature than most HS kids.

[moytoy12]

I think it's time for somebody to put on his big boy pants if he's gonna talk with grown-ups.

Where do you come up with this stuff? I believe courtside's reply is dead on and rightfully sarcastic.

[Billikan]

I know you either are Bernie or are very close to him so I would expect that response. Everything about the Billikens is bad in your mind! Sorry that I do not buy into that mantra. Anyone who is positive about the program is ridiculed! People who come in and try to hurt the program are heroes in your eyes! Have you ever in your life built something that was really significant? It takes time, patience and an incredibly positive attitude. It is very hard. The competition is tough. The naysayers in any such effort are a poison.

[moytoy12]

"Anyone who is positive about the program is ridiculed!"

Have you noticed that the people who are positive about the program and post as grown-ups on here generally get respectful responses? But those who have child-like posts are ridiculed?

But i'm just a super negative idiot poster, so what do i know.

[Billikan]

See my reply to Bernie above! Where I come up with this stuff is that I know how hard it is to build something is a highly competitive market when the competition is fierce. Naysayers within the group that is trying to achieve success are poison to any effort to try to build something. I have basically stopped posting because I am sick of what this board has become -- the posts after our last loss were incredibly obscene, disgusting and would be actionalble in court for libel--but when the media comes on here and trys to hurt our school, our coach, and our program then someone needs to say something.

It is incredibly easy to be negative and mean spirited in life. Bernie has taken it to an art form. It is hard to be positive and try to build something. Most of the people in the press have never even tried to do what would be required to build something at all, much less in the incredibly competitive enviroment of major college basketball. Yet, they pontificate like they have been there and done it! That's fine. But when they try to hurt our school and our program then it is not fine in my view. You may see it differently but anyone who want to be positive on this board is ridiculed and most have left. This board is in no way representative of the entirety of the Billiken basketball fans and the media now uses it to distort the picture and that is sick.

[moytoy12]

Believe it or not, there have been some very good (and positive) discussions re billiken basketball over the course of this season and in the last 2 weeks in particular. Yet, conspicuously, you are never involved in these discussions. You come on this board in 2 instances: 1) when you praise brad immediately after a win (and if you recall in the win after umass, many people, agreed with you) or 2) when you want to piss and moan about all the negativity, which is ironic since your pissing and moaning adds to the negativity.

"I have basically stopped posting because I am sick of what this board has become -- the posts after our last loss were incredibly obscene, disgusting and would be actionalble in court for libel..."

Good god Billikan, we all know it's 1 or 2 people posting this stuff. That doesn't make it right, but to accuse the rest of the board for one or two idiots is silly.

So Naysayers are poison, so are you trying to run the naysayers off the board? Seems like a contradiction to me.

[courtside]

Billikan, you haven't debated one poster all season on the actual facts of the season and team. If you can't have an objective discussion on the facts of the season, you will not be taken seriously.

If you would like to begin, I'd be happy to do so.

I'd be happy to discuss the pros and cons of SLU's season and state of the program with you. You don't choose to do it.

[SLUSER]

Did you say something said on the Billiken Board would be actionable in court for libel? that is freaking hilarious.....thanks for the laugh. keep drinking the kool-aid and settling with average results. it is so satisfying being successful 50% of the time!

[Tonka]

Billikan, as you know, I am one of the more positive posters on this board and try to be as civil as they come. That being said, I think the Board this year has made you knee-jerk defensive and sometimes more abrasive than needed. I don't say that to take a shot at you as you're a great fan and I love the passion but it's just my observation.

I thought the post by was thought provoking and something to think about. Not every post is a shot at Coach.

[cheeseman]

This contract thing is a red herring. Today, no coach is held to their school by a long term contract - most all leave when a better deal comes around. So you can have a coach with a 4 year contract and he is no more likely to stay then somebody with a 2 year one is for more than a year or two. Sorry, kids are smarter than that to know that any coach who says I will be here for 4 years is not telling the truth. Pdiddy is correct - next year is not the problem but the year after.

[Battlecat455]

Thank you.

[billiken_roy]

while the point is relative, i hope the recruits that hear an assistant coach or a head coach say such files away the technique used accordingly.

slu has long been on the receiving end of negative recruiting. just another bullet in the scum assistant coach/recruiter that stoops to that level.

[Billikan]

Saint Louis University is a wonderful school that has done much to revitalize the central core of our city. The transformation of the campus is incredible and significant new construction is ongoing right now. That construction includes a world class research building and a terrific new arena for basketball and other sports.

We have a men's basketball program that has been on a roller coaster for years. But one thing is constant. SLU insists that all of its players be real students and take real classes so they can have a real chance in life after basketball rather than parking cars like Ricky Frazier. We do not have "cake" majors like many of the more prestigious academic schools who plan special easy programs for athletes--programs that are not available to most of the student body, and most of the student body members are held to very high academic standards. Michigan and its Fab 5 players is an obvious example of that and the "perks". The graduation rate under the current coach is exemplary. Also, our program plays by the rules and does not pay off front men, families or intermediaries. Just look at the Reggie Bush situation if you want to know how far the big programs will go to recruit a blue chip athlete. Our basketball program also is supported at a reasonable level but not nearly at the level financially of many other schools. We had to build our own arena rather than have it funded by taxpayers.

I know that the immediate response will be that all of that means nothing and that SLU requires no more than any other school--a point I believe is wrong--and you will argue that it is just an excuse that other schools cheat and don't require the players to be real students.

Yet, in the big picture, I believe these things to be real positives in looking at our school and our basketball program. To me, it is not just a wins and losses analysis. These other things need to be considered.

But, let's put that all aside because you will reject those things as nothing more than "excuses"!

As a fan of more than 40 years I have seen it all with the Billikens. I have seen incredible upsets, fantastic finishes and times when the program was literally dead in the water. The only thing that saved basketball at SLU was the hiring of Rich Grawer. I remember meeting with him shortly after he was hired and he said he had no idea how bad the situation was and he asked me and several others to help him which we did in many ways including recruiting because it was allowable for me and others to contact the recruits in those days. Rich did a wonderful job in rebuilding what was a dead program and he recruited well. He would have had teams go to several NCAA tournaments if today's criteria and numbers were used. But he had two things that killed him. One was the decision not to admit Craig Upchurch, a big powerful inside player who would have been awesome with Bonner, Douglas and Gray. That may have been the biggest blunder in the history of the program. The other thing that killed us was that we were in the conference with Xavier for years when they had Hill and Strong who both had long carreers in the NBA. We lost to them almost every year when we were plenty good enough to play in the NCAA tournament.

Then Rich recruited his best group and it looked like we were really on our way. We had Clagget, Winfield (a HS all american) Highmark, Skinner, a huge and athletic 7' center and many other good players. Expectations were sky high and everyone was excited. I can tell you that I watched those practices that fall and it was the best Billikan team I had ever seen--and may have been the best talent we ever had on one team ever in the history of the school. Yet that team completely collapsed. Rich got fed up with the egos and the lack of dedication and he became bitter. Players left the program. Winfield, who was promised to play the point was a disaster at that position. Unbelievably that team won only 5 games and Rich left under pressure. I can remember giving an award at the post season "banquet" to Claggett and there were about 20-30 people in attendance.

The came the Spoon era. He was a public comedian and media favorite. he was SLU's version of Whitey Herzog. He came in and used Grawer's recruits and Waldman and won games and the fans loved him. Billiken basketball was on a high--but it stayed on the roller coaster. After some bad times after the Grawer recruits graduated, with some incredibly boring basketball under Spoon, he signed Larry Hughes and for one year we were again on top of the world in St. Louis. Spoon was so excited because he thought he could make some real noise in the NCAA tournament when he had Larry and Justin Love playing together. But we got another bad blow when Larry left after one year and things deteriorated. Spoon hated recruiting and the talent level went down. Ultimately, Spoon "retired" and that was the end of an era. But like the Whitey years, many Billiken fans only remember the positives of the times with Spoon.

So SLU had to start a new era with a new coach, who was reputed to be one of the best recruiters in the country. Unfortunately he was never able to close the deal with any of the high level blue chip athletes he was recruiting and he did little to attract the best local kids like Rich Grawer had done. But we had the miracle in Memphis and things were looking up. Romar got commitments from some highly rated players and we all were excited about the future. Then the program took a real hit to the solar plexus with the late resignation of Romar. We lost the recruits and players left the team because they could not cut it academically.

The roller coaster went down fast. Brad came in late and did the best he could to get some players. Some worked out and some did not but the team won some games. Then things were looking up with Frericks and Bryant as they were moving into their senior year. Expectations were high. Then they both got hurt. Tom played some but ineffectively and Reggie played hurt most of the year. Neither was even close to the player we expected. They were the senior leaders we expected to lead us to the promised land and neither did what we expected. The result was the only losing season under Brad. All of us were disappointed. The roller coaster was down again.

But the roller coaster started to really move up when we signed our two young stars Liddell and Lisch. People were excited. Expectations were high. Their first year they played well but the team lost steam at the end of the season and we all had a sour taste in our mouths.

Then we started this year. Out two young stars were now sophomores were still the focus of the team and were instrumental in its success or failure. However, they had a big center who everyone thought would have a dominant year. Unfortunately, Ian had an up and down year and Lisch had some serious injuries and Tommie has some that were less serious. Tommie and Kevin had some fantastic games. Luke came on the the team had some nice wins. When everyone was healthy the team could play with just about anyone. However, we did have a serious issue with the depth. One very athletic young freshman turned out to be unable to handle the academics (which goes to my earlier point). One redshirt freshman did not do off season work necessary to get in shape. Our other two freshman did not play much and it is unclear whether they will be able to be significant contributors. One is a great shooter and the other had very good size and agressiveness. The question is whether they can bulk up and play effectively on the defensive end. The jury is still out on these fellows.

As it became clear that the new players would either leave the program or would not be prime time contributors the fact that we did not ink any recruits in the fall became more of a concern. This staff was working very hard in recruiting and they were in on but just missed a number of very good players. Brad refused to just settle for lesser players so he could say he signed someone. But this is the "show me" state so he must prove to all of us that he can recruit. Tommie and Kevin and Luke have been wonderful additions to the program. Polk has had his ups and downs but the fact is that we have a bunch of local kids who are real good players and can compete on a national level. Ian was a terrific player who had a down time for about a month but he was a big time player who always seemed to play his best against big reputation big men. That game last year against Gonzaga when he just dominated their center who was supposed to be one of the best in the country was just incredible.

This year was another roller coaster. Nice wins and a good early record were diminished greatly by the two bad losses in January. But the team was resilient and had some great wins in conference and some road games that went down to one ref's call and one possesion. We lost those games to good teams on the road. Then we started the conference tournament and we played a gritty game against a team with nothing to lose--like Baylor in the big 12--and we won that game. We then took on the team that was playing the best ball of any team in the conference and beat them in a tough emotional game that went into overtime. My personal belief is that if the season had ended right then, the positive vibe would be great. Our young players stepped up, our big center for next year played tough and everyone would be fired up to move up. But, unfortunately, our team was dead tired and we played the worst kind of team for tired legs and minds--one that presses and traps hard. Our young stars had a bad game and we lost so it was a big downer. We missed the NCAA and the NIT and in the modern era some fans view that as a total failure, regardless of whether the team is making progress or has nice players who are just coming into their own.

On the recruiting trail, we have two oral commitments that look to be from the type of player that will fit in perfectly with this team. Tough defenders who are versatile and can play several positions. One is another local player which follows the tradition of Rich Grawer to build with some of the good local kids--a tradition that was abandoned by Romar.

Now the program is at a crossroads. I view the roller coaster as still on the way up. The coach and the staff need to sign at least one big man, preferably a juco big man, and another player who can contribute. A real good shooter who can also play defense would be a fantastic addition. But after a 20 win season, with two local stars who will just be juniors, and a big new arena coming up out of the ground, I think we need to give this coaching staff at least until the end of next year to see what they can accomplish. In terms of where we have been over my 40 years the roller coaster is moving up and is in a much better position than it has been many times in the past.

To not make the postseason is a bitter disappointment. But I want to see where this team can go with some additional recruits and Tommie and Kevin working hard for another offseason. It will not be easy because I think our conference will be much better next year but this group of players have proved they are resilient and tough. If, 12 months from now, the team has not played well and there are not new good recruits and no commitments in the fall then the cloud of negativity will descend on the coaching staff. However, while they are still trying to build something I see absolutely no reason why we should bash them and the team and suggest that Brad be fired. My bottom line is that he should be given a chance to prove himself over the next year. If he can do well, I think we will have significant momentum as we move into the new arena. If he cannot, then we can consider looking for a new coach. The fact is that it makes his job all the more difficult if the media spouts off and speculates about him being fired when there is no basis whatsoever for those reports and the AD has specifically said that will not happen. So as a Bills fan that dies with every loss, I want us all to support Brad and what he is trying to do. If we all support him and he fails then it is like every other situation in life, he will be accountable like anyone else. Building anything takes time, effort and patience. D1 basketball is as tough as any business. I am positive about the future even though I am as disappointed as anyone that we missed the postseason.