UB

[aj_arete]

When has SLU ever had two quality recruits like Liddell and Lisch at the same time. Those two recruits alone warrant a grade above 5. Let's gain some perspective and stop focusing on one poor class.

[davidnark]

1. Game day Coaching

2. Pre game planning

3. Player Development

4. Recruiting

5. Being a program ambassador

6. Integrity

1. 3.5 - His teams have struggled to maintain leads and to push double-digit lead into blowouts. He was also grossly outcoached by Martelli twice last year. His lineup choices have been puzzling at times. He doesn't run effective set plays.

2. 8 - He is very good in this area. Perhaps too good, as he often adjust to the other team's strengths.

3. 6 - Ian, Marque, Meyer, Liddell, and others have all improved under him; however, he hasn't developed raw talents such as JJ, Clarke, etc.

4. 3.5 - Over 4 and 1/2 years of recruiting he has signed one very good calculated risk (Ian), two near blue-chippers (Lisch and Liddell), and mostly role players. He has also made some big evaluation mistakes with potential local recruits.

5. 5 - Nothing stands out as good or bad in this regard.

6. 9 - From the outside perspective, he has shown nothing negative in this regard.

[cheeseman]

Skip - I thought about giving him a ranking but I have always said I would wait until the season was over and the fall/spring recruiting season was over. I was serious about appreciating you giving your rating.

[MU88]

My rankings are:

1. Game day coaching--5

2. Pregame Planning--7

3. Player Development--5

4. Recruiting--3

5. Ambassador--2

6. Integrity--8

He is an average game day coach. I admit, he has improved significantly from his UW days, when he was completely overmatched. He usually has his teams prepared. Although, he still spends too much time trying to stop the other team's strengths versus making other teams stop SLU's. While Ian's development has surprised me positively, some of the other players haven't developed as one would have thought. After seeing Polk as a freshman and again against Loyola, I am surprised that he hasn't progressed further.

I think his recruiting has been poor. He has signed a few decent backcourt players, but he has not signed any top flight recruits or true diamonds in the rough. He recruits Dick Bennett talent, but is nowhere near the coach that Dick was.

However, my biggest problem with BS is in the area of being an ambassador for SLU. While he may be a nice enough guy, he is a complete bust in terms of generating any excitement about SLU basketball, either locally or nationally.

In 01-02, the year before Brad was hired as head coach, SLU averaged 11,598 fans per game a 15-16 team. In 05-06, SLU averaged 9325 for a 16-13 team. This year's team, supposedly Brad's best, is averaging well under 8000 fans so far. Clearly, his teams do not generate any excitement in the community. Even the fans on this board are reserved. He has a few backers and a few enemies, but most are somewhat apathetic. As I have maintained since the day he was hired, he is going to destroy all of the goodwill built up by SLU during the Spoon era. Unless he somehow cobbles together a miracle season that gets the community, alumni and student body behind the program, I would think SLU would have no choice but to fire him after this season. You can't gamble with a $75+ million facility. You need someone to generate some excitement before you become irrelelvant.

[SLUDrew]

in my book. The recruiting problems speak for themselves. Ian was a good get. Tommie and Kevin may have came here anyway, but for all we know they might not have, so he has to get credit for them as well. Outside of those three I think the recruiting has been pretty terrible. So far next year's class consists of.....

I also think we are the most predictable defensive team in Division 1-A. If we have such an interest in pushing tempo how about a fullcourt trap once in a blue moon? For a guy who gets all gooey when discussing fine defensive play, you would think we would be capable of running more than one defense.

[slufanskip]

Not trying to stir things up David ... just wondering how we can be looking toward a season around 20 wins if he is a below average game day coach and recruiter and just average at player development. That should give him a 15 in pre game preparation. If we finish above 60 we will be in the top 20% of D1 basketball programs. I'm just not sure how that is done with below average recruiting, average player development and below average game day coaching.

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Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[moytoy12]

The luck of the billiken my friend, a little rub of the billiken statue goes a long way!

[davidnark]

Whether this team wins 20 games remains to be seen; however, number of wins isn't as important these days as number of quality wins as judged by the RPI formula and the selection committee. To date, Brad's combination of recruiting and coaching is 0-4 in that regard.

I also acnowledged Brad's three recruiting successes thus far. The beauty of college basketball is that 2 or 3 very good players can sometimes carry a team into the tournament. Unfortunatley, it is going to take much more to be sustainable over time. I am judging Brad based upon his success to date and his long-term prospects for success. If there aren't consistent upgrades to recruiting, that long-term success will be suspect.

[slufanskip]

Loyola on the road is a quality win. Remember road wins are worth 1.4

It seems you dislike Brad enough that you aren't very objective. He can't possibly be as bad as you say he is but have a team that is even decent.

Our bad players must win despite Brad.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[davidnark]

I don't dislike Brad at all. I gave him a 9 on integrity and an 8 on game planning. I just happen to think that his overall recruiting is horrendous relative to the top-50/national championship expecations Brad set for the program. Check out the varied list of all the programs who have landed consensus top 100 recruits over the last fiver seasons http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/. Brad hasn't even flirted with any success for this type of player. Count the number of different programs that have made the NCAA tournament in the last four years. Again, Brad hasn't even been close.

Even though I have reservations regarding Brad, absolutely none of it is personal. There are coaches I have followed who I disliked as individuals, regardless of their on-the-court success or failures. I happen to think Brad is a decent guy, and I want him to be succesful at SLU.

Why do posters assume that posters like me, kshoe, SLUDrew, and others have some personal dislike of Brad merely because we question his success or lack thereof.

[courtside]

People can't take off the blue colored glasses. Many SLU fans must think winning in college hoops requires lack of integrity. It is a defense mechanism, tunnel vision to think everything is fine the way it is. SLU basketball is irrelevant in St. Louis. That can change. Selling the program and being an ambassador for the program are also very important things for a successful program. Openly, BS has said he does not enjoy that aspect of the job, and leaves a lot of that to others. That is a major concern. This isn't about appeasing the handful of billikens.com posters. It is about building a successful college basketball program. There is a lot more to it.

[slufanskip]

Fair enough ... on the like issue

If you are only ranking him against the coaches of consesus top 50 programs ... I guess your rankings make sense, but I think you have to rank him against all D1 coaches ...

Name for me all the D1 coaches that you can think of that have taken a program similar to ours in academics and tradition and turned them into consesus top 50 programs in 5 years or less. Programs that make the tourney 3 of 5 years.

Most coaches don't get 3 players the caliber of Tommie, Kevin, and Ian within 3 years ... so that alone should make him at least an average recruiter ...

Are you one of the one's that label this years class as a flop?

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[kshoe]

Do you believe SLU should, on a normal average year be expected to finish 165th? I think we should have much higher expectations for the program and for Brad than that. Don't forget, this was a program that would certainly be ranked in the top 75-100 based on its last 10 years (4 NCAA tourneys) when Brad took over.

[MU88]

> Fair enough ... on the like issue

>

> If you are only ranking him against the coaches of consesus

>top 50 programs ... I guess your rankings make sense, but I

>think you have to rank him against all D1 coaches ...

>

> Name for me all the D1 coaches that you can think of that

>have taken a program similar to ours in academics and

>tradition and turned them into consesus top 50 programs in 5

>years or less. Programs that make the tourney 3 of 5 years.

>

> Most coaches don't get 3 players the caliber of Tommie,

>Kevin, and Ian within 3 years ... so that alone should make

>him at least an average recruiter ...

>

> Are you one of the one's that label this years class as a

>flop?

>

>

>

> Official Billikens.com sponsor of H

>Waldman

>

>Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would

>have helped club.

Here is a partial list. Note that all of these schools are ranked above SLU in the US News ranking:

Georgetown: JTIII took over a losing program only 3 years ago

NC: Roy Williams took over a losing program and won a title

Georgia Tech: Paul Hewitt took over a losing program at GT and had them in the FF in less than 5 years.

Washington: Romar took over a losing program

GW: SLU conference mate was turned around by Hobbs within 5 years. Are they a top 50 program? Doubful, but they were last year.

Ohio State: Matta took a scandel ridden program to the top of the rankings in 3 years, I believe

Texas A&M: In 3 years, Billy G has this historical doormat in the top 10.

Other schools of note:

Villanova: Jay Wright transformed this program at one of the top master's universities in a few short years.

Marquette: Ranked just below SLU in the US News ranking, Crean had his team in the Final Four in 4 years.

Tennessee: Even though ranked slightly below SLU in the US News rankings (88th), it must be noted that Pearl turned the team around in 1 year.

Creighton: Also a top master's university, Dana Altman is a constant vistor to the NCAA tourney. Again, top 50? In the last 7 or 8 years, I would have to say yes.

There are other examples, but these are the most noteworthy, I think.

BTW, 3 good recruits in 5 years is not good.

[aj_arete]

Let's assess the effectiveness of his defensive system. Let's focus on efficiency measures such as points per possession and FG pct. Then let's compare him to his peers accross college basketball.

His problem in the past was lack of talent, which takes time to accumulate when you do it the right way.

As for past defensive performances, there's no doubt his defensive system has been extremely successful. However with a new offensive tempo in place, I'll accept that his pack defense might not be compatible. We'll have to wait and see.

[slu72]

The Big BCS'ers are not a fair comparison, these schools have some real advantages when it comes to luring top players. But the others are very very fair. GU, GW, Marquette, X (which maintains excellence despite HC's leaving about every 4-5 years since Gillen's departure). And pretty soon the facilities excuse is no longer going to apply.

[billiken_roy]

mu, all of your examples except creighton are from bcs conferences with much much higher levels of exposure.

as to creighton, you do know that altman didnt even finish over 500 until his 5th season?

[Billikan]

It is amazing that we ever win any games when the lousy quality (your assessment not mine) of our recruits is considered. polk has not shot the ball well but he is an excellent player and a nice recruit. Luke Meyer is playing excellent ball and he demonstrated against SIU that he really competes. Kevin and Tommie are not really Brad recruits in your eyes--why? To say that they may have come here anyway is absolutely ridiculous. Ian now seems to be an excellent recruit but you earlier would have considered him a bust. So basically Brad gets no credit whatsoever for any good recruits.

And then, of course, he is a bad game coach. With his bad recruits it must be a miracle that with bad coaching we ever win a game. if I did not know better I would think this team had gone 4-17, 5-16 and 3-20 over the past three years. I cannot remember if you are one who attends games. If you are then you have a very bad memory because Brad has changed defenses and pressed at times this year.

I will never understand your unrelenting negativity toward Brad.

[brianstl]

At of all the schools you listed above one GW might be a fair comparison to SLU and you would still have to factor in the fact that Hobbs did it with players that didn't graduate high school.

The biggest joke is when you mentioned Williams took over a losing program at UNC. He took over goddamn UNC! Loaded with All-Americans and first round picks. Idiotic comparison.

First you need to knock off all the big state u's off your list. They are not a fair comparison. Any coach ay SLU will never have the same resources available to him as a coach at those schools.

You mention Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette. Are you familiar with the continued success at those programs over the last 30 years? You are obviously not. If you were, you would know that those teams and coaches are not really a good comparison to what Brad inherited here.

Finally you mentioned Creighton. The best comparison out of your very flawed list, but maybe you should look at Altman's start at CU and compare it to Brad's. It is not that different. Here is the link: http://www.gocreighton.com/items_of_intere...s.asp?BiosID=68 .

Am I happy were we are at now? No. Do I think Brad is the right guy for the job? Probably. We need to give him this season at least before we make that judgment.

You really need to know what you are talking about, before you start making these types of comparrissons.

[SLUDrew]

First off, my so called "unlrelenting negativity towards Brad" is overstating the point to the nth degree. I have said countless times that he deserves this season to see what he can get accomplished (ie what he can do with this team and with recruiting). However, if after this season we have not made the Tourney AND he cannot pluck some studs from the plethora of junior talent in the St. Louis area, then we need to look elsewhere.

Second, I did say you have to give him credit for Tommie and Kevin because we have no way of knowing if they would have some to SLU or not. I also said Ian has been a nice recruit. For some reason he has regressed thus far this season, but overall he has definitely been a plus for the program.

By the way I do attend games. I attend every game. Have you ever played the game? The reason I ask is that is even in high school you are faced with more defensive variety than we throw at opponents during a game. We are very easy to prepare for.

[NashvilleBilliken]

You're two pronged criteria is absolutely ridiculous. We need to make the tourney this year, plain and simple. If that happens, Brad gets a free pass regardless. We aren't UNC, dude. We rarely make the tourney. He makes it this year, doesn't get the players you want and he should be fired...insane. We don't make the tourney, then we see what our options are. He now has his players in place and his offense in place. Let's see what he can do.

[Also Receiving Votes]

Since so many are in disagreement on Brad lets give him a ranking in a few categories. I'm curious as to where the ABC and the Kool-Aid crew would rank him so far. Rank all categories 1-10

1. Game day Coaching

2. Pre game planning

3. Player Development

4. Recruiting

5. Being a program ambassador

6. Integrity

1. 3

2. 4

3. 1

4. 1

5. 4

6. 6

3.1

You're fired.

[SLUDrew]

I meant to be even more lenient than you. I think if we don't make the tourney BUT if Brad can get a stud reruiting class, then maybe he should be retained. I think it is all on a sliding scale.

[kshoe]

"We rarely make the tourney."

When Brad took over this program in 2002 we had made the NCAA tourney 4 of the previous 10 years.

[brianstl]

Two of those years were with a fired coach's recruits. One was a one year wonder with Larry Hughes. The other was do to Martin's broken leg. What did Spoon or Romar do in terms of program building?