brianstl Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 People are not only writing off this season, but the next three. They are claiming all the freshmen are lost causes. People still can't let the Ahearn thing go. Some are bitching about signing standout citizen, standout student, and I believe our starting PG this year, DP. They think we should have signed Tatum instead. Tatum is a fine player, but it is becoming clear that his criminal numbers are quickly surpassing his b-ball numbers. We have posters saying that AD wouldn't have even started at Harris-Stowe. They think we should offer every kid from the area. We have a poster who keeps track of every recruit in the country and adds their decision to a list against SLU. Everybody needs to calm down. We are not even a week into practices. Let's try to get a couple games into the season at least before we start making judgments. NLOI day is still a little bit away. Let's see what happens before we trash this signing period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiken Rich Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Don' let the haters like Metz and Hardball and Footsie get you down. The doubters like Nark and Kshoe and '72 will come around with a good season or good recruiting classes or both. This board is like shock talk radio sometimes. The loudest, ugliest, voices get the longest threads. Sometimes you just have to turn it off. On the other hand, I feel this will be a great year and it'll be great fun to tweak the haters come March. Good day to you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Good Post Rich---You are right on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 rich to be fair, footsie isnt a program hater. he is a poster hater. we really dont know how he stands on the program as his posts about the billikens are few and far between, but memory serves me that in the day, he was a pretty good poster and supporter of the billikens. i think a lot of the negatism comes from casual fans or fans with an agenda that come in and take a shot and then leave never to be heard from again. if we only had to deal with metz, hardball and billsboys that would be easy. but the posters that come in here with 4 posts and take an uneducated shot while masked in anonimity those blanket the true atmosphere of the billikens.com community. remember the bluestorm poster in the spring? he claimed to be a big billiken fan, but now looking back he was only a stemler fan. he served to do nothing but get the board upset and then as soon as stemler went elsewhere, we have never heard from him again. guys like hardball, billsboys and metz have never had an encouraging word. it is easy to discount what they present. they arent fans. they are folks with another agenda for whatever reason. the tougher posts to read are the ones from the doubters, folks like kshoe or davidnark who have proven to be rabid fans and long time season tix holders in the past that have went sour for reasons that the rest of us dont see. those are the posters that bother me because they likely really represent a small percentage of what the real fanbase thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRaginCajun Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Here is my take on the situation. We are going into the season with legitimate expectations and one of the most talented teams we have seen in a long time. I think most fans recognize this and are excited about this. Those fans who step back a little bit and truly want this program to have long term success notice that there are some reasons for concern beyond this season. We have two outstanding guards who will be sophomores this season. One of those guys is a kid who may or may not be around for 4 seasons. We are led by an all-conference center who is a senior. Once he is gone we will be filling the 4 and the 5 with what can only be described as projects. Next years team will consist of two (hopefully) all-conference caliber guards and three senior guards who the book is still out on, but I would say solid players to say the least. Beyond that is a bunch of question marks (Bryce, Obi, Horace, Knollmeyer, and Maguire). We have yet to get a verbal for this years recruiting class, but the longer we wait the more likely it is we will be bringing in some more players with question marks. I am not saying none of these guys are going to work out, but I think this at least provides reason for legitimate concern. I am willing to relax and enjoy this season, but I do understand why some posters have negative things to say. I will hold-off any legitimate negative shots until I see what transpires from this years team and the incoming recruiting class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 " the tougher posts to read are the ones >from the doubters, folks like kshoe or davidnark who have >proven to be rabid fans and long time season tix holders in >the past that have went sour for reasons that the rest of us >dont see. those are the posters that bother me because they >likely really represent a small percentage of what the real >fanbase thinks." Wow Roy! How can guys like davidnark and kshoe "bother" you more than the Mizlosers and other trolls? That's frightening. It's amazing how little tolerance you have for people who hold different opinions whether it's current events or basketball. The whole world doesn't have to think like you Roy. It's ok if somebody doesn't share your opinion about the upcoming season. Why does that "bother" you if they don't? I'm probably a little more optimistic about the state of the program than kshoe, 72 and davidnark, but I understand their sense of urgency about the upcoming season. With this being Ian's senior season, this is a HUGE year. Coach needs to break through and get into the Tourney. The way I see it, we have three core players who we can count on. Beyond that, there are still a lot of questions about who will step up and make consistent contributions. The fact it doesn't seem like we added a sure fire recruit who would start alongside our big three, I think adds to some of the uncertainty. Who cares if these guys have their doubts. I'm sure they'd love nothing more than to have their doubts erased as soon as they start playing games. I think they want nothing more than to see the team do well, and ultimately that's all that matters. I respect their opinions much more than the trolls. Not all Billiken fans have to think exactly alike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 ace, bother me as in i take stock in what they say. they have credibility. they make me think about my opinions. i have nothing against them. i have had lunch with davidnark a number or times. i had a conversation with the shoes at humphreys just friday nite. we respect each other's stances and give credience to what we say, or at least i do of theirs. that is what i mean by "bother". the trolls, you are correct, i detest their presense here and it is upsetting that they cause the turmoil that they bring to the board. but as for as their influence on myself, they have none. in fact they only cement my beliefs because i see their motives as agenda driven, not fan driven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 every year almost every team has question marks ... usually more than 1, and usually because they are unproven at the D1 level. This is college and you have to replace people every year. You can't consider someone a question mark or not based upon how many stars rivals gives them. Every year there are many highly ranked players that don't live up to expectations and even more lower or unranked players that exceed expectations. To consider any player a flop or a project or a non contributor before he has played a college game is crazy. Argue that Bryce won't help fine ... you've probably seen him play, but to argue that AK, HD, and DM won't be outstanding is again just silly. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SShoe Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 >guys like hardball, billsboys and metz have never had an >encouraging word. it is easy to discount what they present. > they arent fans. they are folks with another agenda for >whatever reason. the tougher posts to read are the ones >from the doubters, folks like kshoe or davidnark who have >proven to be rabid fans and long time season tix holders in >the past that have went sour for reasons that the rest of us >dont see. those are the posters that bother me because they >likely really represent a small percentage of what the real >fanbase thinks. K-Shoe may have some reservations about this year's freshman and the current status of recruiting this year, but don't think for a second he's not pumped about this year's team. He just feels that many on this board aren't even "glass half full" people, they're the "crystal glass is completely full of $500 scotch" people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRaginCajun Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Skip, I never said that these kids will not contribute or our flops. You are putting words in my mouth there. Here are my questions for the guys who will be relied on beyond next season: Bryce - question mark due to his lack of playing time and contribution thru three seasons with the program, his lack of mobility and any kind of ability not inherent from being tall, and lack of recruitment from other DI programs. Knollmeyer - question mark due to being released from Mizzou and not having other quality offers out there as well as his unimpressive numbers playing against lousy competition. Horace Dixon - question mark due his academics more than anything for me and the fact that little is known about him and the fact that we got him so late in the game without him having many alternative offers. Obi - question mark due an injury he sustained over 2 years ago, yet it is still talked about and he is apparently still not 100%. His lack of mobility and overall fitness is a concern for me as well when exactly he will reach 100%. Dustin Maguire - I dont think he has any question marks beyond any other freshman in DI basketball, so should not have been on my list. Recruits - no question marks since we do not have any. I think we have question marks that go beyond just guys being freshmen or new to the college game. If these guys put up huge numbers in highschool and were highly recruited players, I would not see them as too much of question marks. Like I said, just because a kid has questions coming in does not mean they will not have productive careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Sorry, I wasn't directly refering to you regarding calling them a flop ... more just the overall tone of most of the detractors. You and I seem to be on pretty close to the same page except for Bryce. I may be leaning a little more toward the positive than you, but not a lot. I agree we have questions. Bryce ... as I said I can understand concerns, but I don't think you can use lack of playing time as a reason. He plays behind Ian ... nuff said. AK ... Isn't the fact that a big 12 school gave him a scholarship pretty early a plus ... if that's how we grade recruits. I also think that he probably wanted to stay close to home and we were on him pretty quick after his release. Obi ... I share all your concerns. HD ... I have no clue. On the plus side ... we need 2 of the 4 to pan out. I have no problem going into the next year with KL, TL, and probably Luke as our 3 guards ... in fact that would probably be the best guard group in the A10. We will still have DP, DB, and DM off of the bench or one of the 3 improves enough to displace Luke, but I doubt it. Luke is a gamer. On the inside we will have any combination of BH, AK, IO, and HD ... this team will be very guard oriented, and I think would still be very good as long as the inside guys prove to be at least adequate, if one or more turns out to be very good ... we could be very good. Like you and almost everybody ... I would like to see some results out of this early recruiting period. I have concerns with filling them in the fall on a normal basis. I guess I think the probability of us being pretty good AI (after Ian) is good. Now ... if we never recruit another good player we will probably suck. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRaginCajun Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 I agree Skip. I took the overly harsh road on my assessments to kind of further my point and I think your post here is very realistic. We will be a very different team next year without Ian and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You go with what you got and next year we will have a guard dominated team with all guards who have shown the ability to produce. It is too early to say what we will have come next season as far as the 4 and 5, but as you said we are only looking for 2 of the 4 (as of now) to provide just quality minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 >the tougher posts to read are the ones >from the doubters, folks like kshoe or davidnark who have >proven to be rabid fans and long time season tix holders in >the past that have went sour for reasons that the rest of us >dont see. those are the posters that bother me because they >likely really represent a small percentage of what the real >fanbase thinks. Roy, that response is a bit close-minded. KShoe, 72, and I have not "gone sour" on the program. All of us are very excited about this year's team. However, we have reasonable concerns regarding (i) the six-year stretch of NCAA tournament absences, (ii) Brad's style of play and coaching strategy down the stretch last season (see Dayton and St. Joe games), (iii) Brad's coaching record to-date at SLU, (iv) back-to-back flops in the fall recruting season, and (iv) the long-term viability of a recruiting strategy that has been forced to rely upon recruits who are coming off injuries, signed after being dropped by other programs, still available in May, etc. I also do not believe that these concerns and opinions represent what a "small percentage of the fanbase thinks." Outside of the very loyal Brad supporters on this board, most of the fans I talk with share some or all of the concerns noted above. It is wonderful that Brad is a "nice guy," but he is being paid--an enormous salary--to win college basketball games, not to win a popularity contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 We all wear blinders that restrict or prohibit our ability to identify faults. For example, I probably have blinders toward my 2-year old son. His hair may be too messy or too straight, he may talk too much or too little, his face may be too big or small; however, my blinders in regard to him prohibit me from seeing anything other than a perfect little boy. Certain posters on this board wear blinders in regard to SLU basketball. Roy probably wears blinders in regard to Brad and Lisch. Billikan and Tseugnillib probably wear blinders in regard to the SLU program as a whole. I probably still wear blinders in regard to Coach Spoon. Anyone who believes that this program and coach Brad don't have deficiencies is wearing blinders that prohibit them from being objective. On the flip side, others may have been burned or may be inherently pessimistic to the point of finding fault with everything. The reality is somewhere in between. Is the program generally going in the right direction? Yes--the arena is being dug, there are three all-conference players on the team, and there are great prospects sitting in the junior class. Is it reasonable to question the last two recruiting classes, the froncourt prospects post-Ian, and the "we run...we don't run...we run" on-the-court strategy? Yes. That being said, all of the regular posters are excited about this season. How can you not be? This team has the best NCAA prospects since Larry Hughes' team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NashvilleBilliken Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 When it comes down to it, I think we are all closer to having the same thoughts than not. Unfortunately, people like Hardon and Metz have taken things to such an extreme, that people like me are coming back with extreme's on the other end. What started off as small disagreements has basically torn the board to opposite poles. You got guys like Metz who could really care less about SLU or it's morals...for lack of a better term. He would like to hire Huggins. I think 95% of the board thinks that's a bad idea. Then you have Hardball who can't go a post without mentioning Ahearn, Tatum or just bashing Brad. I.e. we had a very encouraging report from practice last week. Some good things were said about the players, but he takes that opportunity to turn it into a brad can't coach thread. Completely unnecessary. I don't think there is a person on this board who isn't disappointed with this fall's recruiting so far. I really would have liked to have a full class already. I don't think there is a person on this board who isn't concerned that we haven't made the tourney in Brad's tenure. A legitimate concern that just about everybody feels will end this year. Why do we need to say this class is a failure? MOST of the people who say that haven't seen any of the guys play. And hell, yesterday was the first official open practice of the season anyway. So how can these guys be written off so easily? We have a great team this year. Brad has had some great recruiting successes to go along with his failures. As just about everybody has said, this year is a big one. I see Brad's program as a program on the upswing...And i suppose that is where the big difference lies. When I see something contrary to that is when my attitude changes. I do not think our fall recruiting class dictates the direction of a program. I think it's wins and losses. If we start the season with 5 losses, you better believe I will say "off with his head." But I DON'T think that is going to happen. I think Brad has this program more or less where he wants it. I, for one, am willing to let it unfold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 On the same hand if you read many of his posts he seems to be a the faucet hasn't even been turned on yet person, especially regarding an incoming class he has yet to see play a game. Seems strange to me. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 David I think you make some good points. The rose colored glass crowd point out that this is the best team we've had in years. Is it because of Brad's recruiting or is it just luck. I don't know the answer but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Are the last 2 classes shaping up to be disapointing.Yes. Does any of this really matter. No. It's all about wins and losses. If Brad wins then he will be our our coach for many years. If he losses then he will eventually be gone whether Suggs is on the team or Blake Ahearn. While I'm not like billikenguest aka father knows best,we fans overdo this recruiting thing. It's all about production and as long as that production is looking up I'm happy. If it's going down well thats another thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 I say we take Kshoe out back of the Kiel/Savvis/Scottrade and beat his arse! Go Cards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 willie said....."While I'm not like billikenguest aka father knows best, we fans overdo this recruiting thing". willie....I understand your ("aka father knows best") phase, but what do you mean by....."While I'm not like billikenguest.....we fans overdo this recruiting thing."? Help me understand you comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 that or force feed him blue kool aid Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 I don't think he was being overly critical of you. He was suggesting that his kids and I may overblow the recruiting issue, while you always provide the everything-is-good patriarch attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 You know, David, sometimes, in life, it is just a lot more fun to see the upside...especially as you get older. You definitely only live once. "A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands up for others." - Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Just take one little sip, David. You know you want to... http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:YMkY...erry_blue/2.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickdraw Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Well done! (I see you've been snooping around in UNCA's wine cellar.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Don't count your chickens before they are hatched. To point to this big group of h.s. juniors - 13 D1 prospects as noted by Brad - and think we are going to land 5 or 6 players is hoping for a bit much. Brad has not had a 50% success rate yet on the kids he has offered so why think this will happen next year? I would think he should be able to get 2-3 of this group - including Kramer in this total- and that assumes he offers to all of them regardless of their positions and the team's needs. The next question is will he get the top 2-3 or the #s 11-13? I am neither down on Brad or drinking the kool aid. I said I would wait to judge Brad's progress based on several check points and the current one up for viewing is the fall recruiting season and right now things don't look all that rosy but in fairness, we have to wait until the signing period passes to give it a grade. I am sorry I am not in the camp of "it does not matter when you sign a player fall or spring or summer just that you sign him". It does matter because the odds of continuing to find quality players after the pool has been picked over is not in your favor consistently. Right now, Brad seems to be falling into that habit and he will get burned before it is all over. If some can not understand this then that is their problem but I bet the odds and the odds say getting 3 quality signings in the spring is not in the cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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