What Have We Learned So Far?

[Taj79]

The most obvious answer to the question is that we can learn very little by playing local, lower Division schools. I like it better than EA Sports or Athletes in Action but in the long run, it gives you nothing more outside what you hear from practices. Some year when Maryville or UMSL jumps up and kicks us ala McKendree some 30 or so years ago, then we'll har about it. It might even mean more to the local boys just competing with us short of winning. As of right now, the answers to the questions are still out there.

Is IV the real deal? I believe the jury is still out and will be so for a few more games. Sure he's a monster shooting 10 of 12 from the field and 9 of 12 from the line but it was against no one taller than what, 6'5" or 6'6". In both contests he had three fouls; that's not good. Extrapolating 11 rebounds over 28 minutes might be good but who knows. Again, the competition was not indicative of much and comparing a four-guard lineup against this competition is again not indicative of things to come ... good or bad.

Who's the 4 and what's the depth on the front line? No answers here. A four guard starting lineup seems to reinforce the fact that no decision is to be made at the 4 .. maybe because we don't ahve one. VN did average 10 ppg over these two games in about 15 mpg so that is hopeful albeit agaisnt the noted height-challenged competion. JJ exhibted the now-you-see-him-now-you-don't attributes of no points agaisnt UMSL and then 10 agaisnt Maryville. Too inconsistent for a fourth-year junior in my book. Obi from all accounts is off to a red-shirt year so no help there. And BH's contributions seems limited to shot blocks with five in his 28 minutes of time. Two points is quite disturbing from a scoring contribution. Right now, if I were the opposing coach, I'd bang the ball inside consistently to get IV in foul trouble. that's my view from the cheap seats here.

Who's gonna score? I can't answer that from a box score review. Again, consdier the competition. But nada-for-13 from three-point-range seems to scare me a whole lot right now. DP's numbers are good in the UMSL box; less stellar in the Maryville box. DB/TL/KL/Ad shot a collective 19-31 in the first game but a total of 15-33 in the second and I think I'd like to know how many of those were layups or dunks to get a better perspective of shooting percentages. Shooting the trey the team is a collective 6 for 25 for 24% .... not good in my book. And at home and against inferior competition. Free throw % goes from 80% in the opener to 56% last night. While I was going to say "yikes" I think that is a very real summation of what youth also brings to the table .. inconsistency.

I didn't expect the questions to be answered but I think what these two games did was demonstrate that the questions are there and the weaknesses are glaring. The fact that some are calling it a "piss poor" effort also shows how tough college can be in that getting up for every game is a personal thing and will not necessarily be inflated by some perceived rivalry or what have you. These kids are going to have to motivate themselves each night .... there is no likelihood of Vashon or Althoff playing rival city schools or Belleville schools. And its a new league with no opp to see Marquette, Louisville or Cincy once or twice a year and get that automatic pump up in your adrenalin. Another potential failing of youth.

Eatern will bring an interesting perspective. I have it down as a win but their roster points to an interesting mismatch as far as the interior game is concerned so we hsall see. It is indeed great to have the games going.

By the way, if the preseason exhibitions were a pause to reevaluate our picks onthe record .. I'll opt to keep mine the same.

[slufanskip]

As far as being up for the game ... they started out very well and intense ... but when you are up 30 in 10-15 minutes ... how do you stay that way, regardless of what any coach says.

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[slu72]

Should have known you'd bring logic and analysis into this thing. I do think we can take a few positives away from these games. Our athleticism has improved, ie we are up the court quickly, we have some leapers, we have a decent mid range game. Granted, none of this is proven against teams with similar athletic ability. I do think we've got a glimpse of the players we will be counting on by the end of the year; DP, TL, DB, IV, and KL. I share your concerns about IV and fouls. And does anyone really think he'll be the pt per minute guy he's been in these two games? Well, if you do, I got a great deal on a bridge in NYC, please call all credit accepted. The 3 point shot is so critical in College ball these days it goes without saying we are at a distinct disadvantage if we can't get to at least 33-35% there. Last night did nothing to bolster my optimism. Even Rammer said it, "very very disconcerting." Hell that kid from Marysville nailed I think 3 in a row at one time. Dustin McGuire can't get here soon enough, because no one on this team has shown, that's right Broy no one including KL, has shown they can hit it. Question for last night's attendees, from Earl and Rammer's description our 3's sounded as though they were clangers and bounders over the backboard. True? The 4 position, my fear is EIll may very well expose our most glaring weakness right off the get go. If they start a front line of 6'9", 6'8", and 6'6" I really don't know how we defend them unless we are so quick we get a ton of steals. Nothing's gonna come easy this year, I'm afraid. I'm sticking with my prediction as well.

[Billiken Rich]

Umsl has the most out of shape cheer leaders. Maryville is a totally white university, with some hideous looking fans.

The Bills are still an enigma.

[TheGoat]

nothing...absolutely nothing for sure. Only that there is a great deal of promise. Without execution and effort, that wont get us very far.

[TheBand]

Gonna have to disagree with you on a point. As i mentioned to DeSmet last nite, I don't think you learn a darn thing from playing lesser programs like maryville and umsl. I personally would rather see the Athletes in Action or EA sports or NBC Thunder squads at the minimum of once during pre-season. Most of the time, these exhibition teams (that are now outlawed by the NCAA) have quite a bit of former D1 talent. If i were a coach, I'd rather pit my team against some competition during the pre-season.

What did we learn from maryville? other than they have a team name of "Saints"..feature a St Bernard (so I was informed) as their mascot and a couple of co-eds have a good possible lawsuit against savvis for poor workmanship in the stands.

[DoctorB]

well, of course we HAVE LEARNED A FEW THINGS!

--The running style is here for the foreseeable future. Coach has said as much in interviews, dependent on the personnel now available.

--Outside shooting for SLU is suspect. EARTH TO DUSTIN!

--Outside, perimeter defense, in my opinion, was weak in both games. UMSL took advantage and hit lots of 3's. MU missed many open 3's. ODDLY, OUR POST DEFENSE HAS SEEMED MUCH BETTER THAN PERIMETER--but of course there were no Charlotte forwards in there to defend. (PS--Bryce had about 3-4 blocks and 3-4 rebounds during one 3-4 minute stretch last night.)

--TL and KL are outstanding prospects, but we have learned that they are both freshmen. This will evidently come as a shock to many on this board. GIVE THEM BOTH A YEAR OR 2 TO DEVELOP. (FLASHES OF BRILLIANCE, AND FLASHES OF DULLNESS)

--we have learned even more about the truth behind our hunger for a competitive, fun-to-watch team in 2-3 years--THE POTENTIAL IS THERE!

--Attendance way, way down last night. That will go up as we become more consistent and win some games. BILLS FANS WILL NEED RECONVINCING.

--IN STRETCHES, THIS TEAM WILL SCORE, SCORE, SCORE!!! I noticed last night in particular Danny Brown STREAKING DOWN THE FLOOR, FILLING LANES--HE IS VERY FAST; I WONDER IF HE EVER RAN TRACK?? NO WONDER HE IS STARTING--HE IS ALMOST OVER THE TOP WITH EFFORT. (ps--we did not always finish well some excellent drives to the rack).

YES WE HAVE ALREADY LEARNED A FEW THINGS!!!

[cheeseman]

Exhibition games against local lower level teams is good for them - it gives everybody a chance to shine and the NCAA did the right thing this time.

[Taj79]

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[Taj79]

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[Taj79]

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[Billiken Rich]

I think we already knew that but I'll give it to you. At least his dad didn't get any ammo to use against us.....

[bauman]

Part of what I learned last night was that JJ is capable of playing at the 5 if necessary, and after watching IV play against two much smaller and less talented 5s, I think we may need JJ at the 5 during some games this year. (Due to foul trouble) He played very good in spurts and even had BS giving congrats after some plays.

I learned that TL can fly under the radar for 5-10 minutes and then turn it on and dominate for 3-5 minutes. Also learned that Tommie can be careless with the ball once in a while.

I learned that DP & AD still can't be counted on to make free throws-not something desirable in a point guard.

I learned that it's going to be fun watching this young team run the ball, but I wonder how well that will work with no dominant rebounder.

All in all I think we will get better quickly as TL & KL become comfortable playing at this level and that attendance will improve throughout the year as word gets out about this groups ability and style of play.

Finally, I learned that Brad can be patient with the errors a young team will make when playing more of a run and gun offense. He remained calm at times he might have exploded last year(I know these were only ex. games).

[slu06]

I agree that it is dificult to seriously answer questions about the team after only two exhibition games (versus D-II teams also). However, I haven't read too many posts analyzing our defense. I'm used to Coach's teams playing solid D all game, no matter who's on the court. I was a little worried to see Maryville get some easy layups under the basket in the second half. True, we did create a lot of turnovers, but I think that was just SLU's better athleticism showing. Has Coach been more preocuppied with his new offense than teaching/conditioning for the hard nosed defense SLU's been known for the past few years??

[Tonka]

I agree on the defense thing. I think we took a few steps forward offensively, but think we have taken a step backwards defensively - at least so far from what I have seen. When you play the offense we did last year it's easier to buckle down on defense. Brad has got to make sure we are as tough as always on defense or we won't be much better.

Danny Brown plays a vital role on this team in my opinion. I think he is the x factor. To be honest, I'm still not sold on Ian giving us as much as we are all expecting him to. Don't get me wrong, Ian has dreastically improved and I think in another year he will be unbelievable but I think we are asking a ton from him this year. We are all expecting him to be way better than last year while at the same time asking him to be the only viable 5 on a team that really has no 4. That scares me. In order to pull that off, I think he's going to have play an extremely high level all year. Not sure he's capable of that this year. Next year, probably. This year, it's still a question.

I am sold on DP at point and honestly have the least amount of concerns with him at that position then I do any other player at any other position.

[Billikenbooster]

We haven't given the absence of LM enough space in this discussion. I thought he was one of our brighter stars at the end of the difficult season last year. I thought he played very smart, shot the FT exceptionally well, and rarely made mistakes. He rebounded a fair amount as well.

Coach said he may be ready for EI. If he is, I would watch his mobility and jumping ability very closely. Surely by the end of the season he will be able to add to the offense and the defensive intensity.

If he can play the 3 some, he may allow Liddell to rebound some as he tries to defend the opponenent's 4.

mhg

[Tonka]

great point on LM. I was just telling my friend at last night's game that Luke is one of the most fundamentally sound players on this team. I will be very interested to see what his mobility will be.

[Box and Won]

Great point, indeed. It seemed like the team as a whole played better when Luke was in the game.

[Taj79]

I understand, as the good doctor has pointed out, that it is impossible to go into any situation, do something, and not learn. But the reason I started this thread is because someone, somewhere, in one of the prediction threads (I believe) made reference to maybe waiting until AFTER the exhibition games to make these preseason prognostications on the upcoming year and the potential record. So, in that context, I asked what have we learned and in the long run, I am stating that we learned nothing that would in any way-shape-or-form give us any truer of an indication of where this team is at this point in time versus what we knew on October 30.

There are so many variables that enter each and every game that any prediction would seem to be quite futile. Yet we persist. To me its still in the "hell if I know" category.

With that said, let the games begin!

[slu72]

No doubt about that TajMahal. One of these years/seasons I hope we have a team of proven players that will allow us the luxury to predict with reasonable or logical justification. Say in two years when TL and KL are all conference types, we have better knowledge of the A-10, etc. This years team? One big question mark in my mind. Who knows, those who predicted +17 wins might have it and then those who predicted -13 are justified as well.

[Taj79]

... I'll give it to you and agree that we learned the running style is here to stay for the "foreseeable future (inasmuch as one can draw the conclusion from two exhibition games). But I will say that Brad is nothing if not a creature of habit. I predict that the plug-it-out style will quickly return should we find the winning difficult to achieve early on.

Second point: "EARTH TO DUSTIN." One shooter does not a complete team make. And to place such a burden on a freshman would not be completely kosher in my book. What this advocates is a wait-until-next-year kind of thought and I'm not ready to do that. With the addition of Kevin Lisch and the continued (supposed) maturation of Anthony Drejaj and the (see other thread) breakout year for Dwayne Polk, I am inclined to not wait for next year and bank all those outside firepower traits onto another incoming freshman. Can Danny Brown shoot? Luke Meyer?

Perimeter vs. Post defense. You're 6'10" and 7 feet. The tallest guy you're playing is 6'6". Is the picture we're seeing slanted? I would think so. And the numbers you attribute to Bryce Husak are now also slanted because at first, I was impressed. Bryce totaled 3 blocks and 7 rebounds for the game. If he had the numbers you state (which I believe to be true) and in the spurt you describe (3 - 4 minutes) then the rest of his 11 to 12 minutes he must've been sleepwalking and of no use whatsoever. Not a good warm and fuzzy as far as I'm concerned.

Liddell and Lisch are freshmen. I for one have been saying that all along and been somewhat castigated for it. Yes, they are freshmen. Which means one should expect inconsistencies. I know that ... but others seem to believe that they are the second comings of guys like Hughes and Highmark. I think I can accept closer to Highmark than Hughes ... but let's remember it took Highmark around two years to really hit his stride. Hughes was an aberration for this program and we'll never see another like him in my lifetime.

Potential is there. Frankly, we live on potential. So nothing new there. But i for one am getting tired of all the "potential." Fish or cut bait.

Attendance. I believe attendance is where it is and where it will always be, fan-base speaking. We always have those locked in season ticket holders ... what ... 7 to 8 thousand strong? The increase will indeed come if and when we start winning because IMO St. Louis, outside of the baseball Cardinals, is one of the best examples of fair-weather fan bases anywhere. If the Blues win, they'll go there. If we win, they'll join us to dispose of their entertainment dollar. But I just don't foresee ever having 20K+ in the house consistently ever again .... the Bonnies, the Explorers, the Spiders?!? Sure, for Memphis, UC, UofL at times ... but not now. That's why I still support a 12K to 13K on-campus arena for this team.

Danny Brown, track star. You yourself pointed out the key to all this ...the good finish. You can beat your man all night and if you miss the layups at the end ... so what. We once had an intramural team that was all cross country team members. They ran the opposition into the ground each game. They never won a game because you still had to put the ball through the hoop. I respect effort, and every once in awhile, effort will beat talent (see: Chaminade versus Ralph Sampson/Virginia). But in the long run, talent wins out 90 to 95% of the time. To streak down the floor on an offensive run, you need either good defense causing steals or rebounds leading to outlet passes. You yourself said the perimeter defense did not look good and I am concerned about Ian going it alone on the defensive boards. Danny Brown, or anyone else for that matter, could streak away to their hearts content. It won't matter much without the rock and the ability to finish.

There is another thread in here that describes Eastern Illinois as "perilous." On 10/10, kshoe took me to task on my prediction saying that there were "four cupcakes on the schedule this year." If I identify those four cupcakes as Eastern, Jackson, Kennesaw and Chicago, it seems somewhat unbelievable, to me, that Eastern is indeed "perilous." But that is one subjective thread against another. Still such a connotation to me is an indication of the uncertainty that surrounds this season. Is it negative? Sure ... at its base is a 9 and 21 season. No one wants to go through that again (although it was more the rule in my early years assocaited with the program).

Maybe what we learned is that the car is shiney and looks pretty in the sunlight. As to just what happens when the key is turned .... well, that I don't know. And the interest on this boards is "in the weeds" with the details as far as I can tell. In that respect, I still say we've learned nothing of value.

Let's tip off!

[Taj79]

By the way, you want in for the AC, you are always welcome. Just stay in touch. I'll be with b-roy .. I'm the good-looking one, which is an easy clue.

[kshoe]

that you wrote your six paragraph essay to refute someone's previous comments that we will have a better idea about this team after the exhibition games.

Not that I disagree with you, because I don't, but are you of the belief that we'll know a lot more about this team aftr the Eastern Illinois game? I know I certainly don't except that to be our "typical" opponent so even if we win big I doubt we can draw any conclusions.

Do you think we'll be able to draw conclusions after flying halfway around the world to play Hawaii in paradise? Maybe, but probably not.

Or do you think it will take much longer, like the end of the non-conference season for people to get a grasp of this team's ability. Like last year when people predicted we'd be lucky to win 2 games during the conference season?

Or does it take the whole regular season, like in 99-00 when we were a disapointing mediocre 9 seed heading into the CUSA tourney? Did people have an accurate view of that team?

My point is that getting an accurate read on any team at any time is a very difficult thing to do, whether we've played some West Pine scrimmages, 2 exhibition game, or a full salte of non-conference opponents.

[cheeseman]

Unless Luke has changed his shot release, he will not add anything to our outside shooting. He releases the ball to low which slows the shot trigger and makes it easier to block. Defensively I agree that he was very sound.

[cheeseman]

Taj-3 things I would like to respond about: 1. If Brad for whatever the reason goes back to a "plug it out" style as you describe it he risks two bad things happening - he looses credibility with the fans, players, and future recruits. This is what Slaten has been saying all along - you can not believe Brad nor does he believe Brad is capable of playing anything but slow down ball. Next, he will create the opportunity to have another loosing season with no excitement or hope - he is a dead duck if that happens again. 2. Trying to make too much out of the two exhibition games is counterproductive. Our shooting for the season will not be what has been seen so far - it will be what it is after the preconf. Shooters need rhythm and apparently the Maryville game - I was not there - was full of fouls and ragged play. After the preconf games, enough will be seen to know if our shooting will be improved - hard to believe it can be any worse than last year. 3. Yes, TL and KL are freshmen and they will play at times like freshmen but by the end of the preconf they should be more like 2nd year players given the minutes they are getting. Most freshmen are lucky to get half the minutes for the entire year that these two will get in just he preconf.