Box and Won Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Kelly is an option, though I am not sure his bat will ever warrant inclusion in a major league lineup. Yes, he is only 21 but his advanced numbers in advanced A ball don't scream future major leaguer to me. However, he has about till the age of 24 to figure it out based on natural progression in the minors. I would be worried if the next two seasons his bat doesn't make the advancement his catching skills have. It will be interesting - and telling - to see how he performs offensively at the AA level. Much more of a hitters' league. As a point of comparison, Yadi was a significantly better hitter than Kelly as a minor leaguer. Hopefully the kid will figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Kelly is an option, though I am not sure his bat will ever warrant inclusion in a major league lineup. Yes, he is only 21 but his advanced numbers in advanced A ball don't scream future major leaguer to me. However, he has about till the age of 24 to figure it out based on natural progression in the minors. I would be worried if the next two seasons his bat doesn't make the advancement his catching skills have. Don't underestimate Kelly's potential bat. Take into account a position switch and before that he has generally been one of the youngest players in his league. He was drafted due to the potential of his bat. Give it time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB73 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 MB73 absolute facts: 9 homers in two games at tiny, windy Wrigley field by the 'lil Cubs: IMO only 3 would have been out of Busch or most grown up real man baseball parks we had 7 key players OUT or playing hurt after long layoffs: Molina-Martinez-Walden-Holliday-Adams-Grichuk-Wainwright, then Garcia only went 2 innings (stomach virus???) ... this all finally caught up with us unfortunately Holliday was not right, not 100% ready, and should not have played in the playoffs, we should have played 5 tool Grichuk in every game for his HR power and Piscotty in the OF with Heyward, Moss to 1B injuries are killing pro sports, these creatine-swallowing-HGH-using-weigh-lifting freaks are going too far... Holliday is at least 70 pounds heavier than Stan The Man... with all that extra muscle, what could go wrong? the Cardinals biggest future problem is the aging of four top players, especially Molina and Peralta, who are not replaceable with current roster players, and Holliday and Wainwright who are; there will be some tough decisions ahead we should offer Heyward 5 yrs/$20M/yr, tops, then walk. I expect some team will offer him 7 yrs/$22M. He is an outstanding, 4-5 tool player, wins games in ways that do not show up on box scores or WAR, but so much of his game is based on top end speed and a big man like him will likely lose a step in a few years, 7 years is big liability and throws our salary structure out of wack. There is a chance he will refine his swing and increase his HR production, but IMO 7 yrs/$22M is too much. Lackey is a warrior, but is gone... several teams will out bid us, and we do not want to pay him for 2 years, we have Waino-Martinez-Wacha-Garcia (we'll offer him an option year)-Lynn (he's way better than you think)-Lyons-Gonzales-Cooney coming back to start Piscotty could be a 5 tool star, is a strong hitter and a plus fielding outfielder, hate to see him have to play 1B, I think we will see Adams back and we'll move proven MLB power hitter Moss to be a platoon / backup OF and pinch hitter Pham is a 9 year minor league player for a reason, is talented but inconsistent at the plate, mistake prone in the OF, is not the long term solution in CF, nor of course is one tool slap hitter Jay who was a wasted spot on the playoff roster Carpenter is solid, Wong is 5 tool potential but needs to not to try to hit a 450 ft homer every time, hit the ball to all fields and the HR's will come Cardinals are a top tier club, one of the best organizations in professional sports, we didn't get it done, too bad, do not second guess Matheny, he is a solid manager Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Matheny really deserves some criticism for his overuse of Wacha and Carlos. When thinking about future pitching don't overlook Alex Reyes who could end up the best of the young 3. Here is a story on him before last season and if you don't know about him I'd suggest you look at what he did this year. MLB has him as a top 10-15 overall prospect also. His fast ball has improved since that article hitting triple digits more than once last year http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/cardinals-minor-leagues/2015/4/28/8508223/future-redbirds-top-25-prospects-for-2015-1-alex-reyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majerus mojo Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I believe the cards are going to scour the baseball world for a new catcher. We haven't had to worry about the catching position for years but the time is coming for when we need to replace Yadi. The organization knows this. Heck, they might already have discovered some kid in Central America that no one else knows about. The extent of the cardinals scouting department and development personnel is far reaching. I thought they just kicked back and let Houston do all the work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbj14 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Don't underestimate Kelly's potential bat. Take into account a position switch and before that he has generally been one of the youngest players in his league. He was drafted due to the potential of his bat. Give it time I wasn't trying to underestimate the potential of his bat. Yes, with the position change his focus was clearly on the defensive intricacies of catching. This upcoming season is one that will prove crucial in his development. He is still young, but improved plate discipline and average would be great to see from this young man. Potential is one of the most frustrating things in sports, especially in baseball. It sounds odd when talking about a 21 year old, but the overwhelming odds are that potential will remain unrealized simply because of the vast number of minor leaguers and select few major leaguers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Matheny really deserves some criticism for his overuse of Wacha and Carlos. When thinking about future pitching don't overlook Alex Reyes who could end up the best of the young 3. Here is a story on him before last season and if you don't know about him I'd suggest you look at what he did this year. MLB has him as a top 10-15 overall prospect also. His fast ball has improved since that article hitting triple digits more than once last year http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/cardinals-minor-leagues/2015/4/28/8508223/future-redbirds-top-25-prospects-for-2015-1-alex-reyes -didn't you see the instruction not to question the manager?!?!? -he also exhausted Perallta -the teams were playing each other so to say the ballpark created a difference is a stretch but the Cubs, who won one more regular season game at home than they did on the road, hit home runs in bunches while the Cards didn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM28 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Don't question Matheny? Remember the quote about Majerus playing chess and everyone else playing checkers? That's Joe Maddon vs. Mike Matheny. Matheny is playing some form of checkers. Matheny brought a 36 year old back on 3 days rest coming off one of his highest inning years of his career. Whoops. Cubs hit 0 cheap home runs at Wrigley. Those were bombs, no doubters. Wrigley isn't even a batter friendly park statistically. By the numbers its similar in play to Busch. But nice excuse. If you look out your window you might see Kyle Schwarbers home run flying by in the night sky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB73 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 The ball was flying out of Wrigley both days; it happens there a lot. The Cubs are built for that. Baez's fluke Wrigley homer made it over that foo foo basket contraption over the cheap ivy wall, another Chicago wind blown HR. Cubs will choke. They cannot help it. It is in their nature. The Cardinals didn't come through, won't win their 12th World Series this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM28 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 The ball was flying out of Wrigley. Cubs are built for that. Baez's fluke Wrigley homer barely made it over that foo foo basket contraption over the cheap ivy wall, another Chicago wind blown HR in shallow right center. In Busch Heyward catches it it in front of his chest. If not for that, Lackey goes 7+ innings. Lackey had only pitched twice in the last 16 days, and his previous outing was only 86 pitches. He is an long term successful accomplished pro, Arrieta has bounced around, back and forth back into the minors, finally figured it out (or loaded the ball), his success is temporary, he will fade away into baseball palookaville. He clearly panicked Monday but got out alive. And mad dog Maddon? Sure he is a good manager when not spitting all over himself in anger, but Matheny is damn good, too. Yes, Schwarger's HR was legendary, I never heard it's final distance guesstimate, but it had to be > 450. But again, 6 of the Cubs 9 HR's for the two days cited would not get out of Busch. I was at the game Monday, Section 226, wore a Musial shirt, 'lil Cub fans shouted at me but didn't have what it takes. I talked to a few, some were nice guys, but mostly the dumbest baseball illiterates I have ever met. Dullards. Cubs will choke. They cannot help it. It is in their nature. You really couldn't be more wrong in just about everything you say. I can't believe I am engaging, but it is late and I have nothing better to do. Baez's home run was INTO the wind and a no doubter the minute it came off the bat. Here is where it would have landed in Busch. It would have been a home run in 26 other parks. Pesky facts. was angry at the world in the 2nd and 3rd innings of the game - he was more likely to fight Tony Cruz and Mike Matheny on the mound than he was to see the 5th inning. The crowd and atmosphere rattled him to let the 3 days rest show through. The ball was flying out of Wrigley on Monday, yes. The ball was not flying out of Wrigley on Tuesday. The first half of the game featured a breeze blowing in from LF towards 1B. The second half of the game was pretty still. That is the conundrum of playing at Wrigley, the park can play very different day to day and even inning to inning. So the Cubs are built to see as many pitches per plate appearance as possible. It is one of those new fangled, foo foo stat things. Arrieta has been an ace pitcher for 2 years now. He might win the Cy Young this year. He finished 9th in voting last year. He isn't a fluke and isn't fading away. Unfortunately numbers don't lie, but your imagination does. Playing at a "big boy park" would have resulted in the Cardinals losing a couple home runs. http://www.hittrackeronline.com/detail.php?id=92015_52&type=ballpark Whoops. The Cubs were the better team. They might not make it past the NLCS, but that doesn't really mean they choked, just like because the Cardinals lost in the NLDS doesn't mean they choked. Funny when I sat next to a Cardinal fan on Tuesday, she wasn't yelled at or heckled or anything. And she got really drunk and annoying by about the 5th inning. I wonder why your treatment was so poor. Aisle 231. I think it has been proven this season that Cubs fans are indeed, The Best Fans in Baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbj14 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I'd argue that fact about the cubs having the best fans in baseball. (This is quite biased as I am a White Sox fan) Living on the North Side of Chicago, I have been able to attend many games at Wrigley over the past 7 years or so when the cubs have been quite putrid. And I can honestly say, the environment still feels like one big bar that happens to have baseball in the background. As a huge baseball fan, I'm just not convinced most of their fan base is there because of their undying support and love of the team. And yes, I've been to games this year during the resurgence and have walked away unimpressed by the fans. Like I said, I'm biased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I think it has been proven this season that Cubs fans are indeed, The Best Fans in Baseball. Language warning........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I think it has been proven this season that Cubs fans are indeed, The Best Fans in Baseball. You can't be serious? I don't even think the majority of people who grew up in Chicago would agree with that. Cubs fans were wondering why Kerry Wood didn't get the game 4 start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Don't question Matheny? Remember the quote about Majerus playing chess and everyone else playing checkers? That's Joe Maddon vs. Mike Matheny. Matheny is playing some form of checkers. Matheny brought a 36 year old back on 3 days rest coming off one of his highest inning years of his career. Whoops. Cubs hit 0 cheap home runs at Wrigley. Those were bombs, no doubters. Wrigley isn't even a batter friendly park statistically. By the numbers its similar in play to Busch. But nice excuse. If you look out your window you might see Kyle Schwarbers home run flying by in the night sky. THis series was one because we had to start our #3 pitcher to open the series and again on short rest. Our 2 best pitchers were overworked. We scored 17 runs in 4 games. Plenty to win had we had a healthy fresh Carlos and Wacha. There was literally no excuse to overuse those 2 as we did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I wasn't trying to underestimate the potential of his bat. Yes, with the position change his focus was clearly on the defensive intricacies of catching. This upcoming season is one that will prove crucial in his development. He is still young, but improved plate discipline and average would be great to see from this young man. Potential is one of the most frustrating things in sports, especially in baseball. It sounds odd when talking about a 21 year old, but the overwhelming odds are that potential will remain unrealized simply because of the vast number of minor leaguers and select few major leaguers. I don't disagree, just saying don't discount his potential to be the next #1 catcher. He's got as good a shot as anyone we'd draft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 You can't be serious? I don't even think the majority of people who grew up in Chicago would agree with that. Cubs fans were wondering why Kerry Wood didn't get the game 4 start. I think ol' JMM was trolling us with that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM28 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I think ol' JMM was trolling us with that one. You're the best box. #bfib. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM28 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 THis series was one because we had to start our #3 pitcher to open the series and again on short rest. Our 2 best pitchers were overworked. We scored 17 runs in 4 games. Plenty to win had we had a healthy fresh Carlos and Wacha. There was literally no excuse to overuse those 2 as we did. I compared this series with the 03-05 Cubs/Cards series, except flipped. Dusty Baker loved overworking his young pitchers but had no one with any stones in the front office to tell him to stop. Tony La was playing chess compared to Baker's checkers. Dusty always played up the "us against the world" mentality, much like Matheny. LaRussa is probably more of an over-manager than Maddon, but they have very similar philosophies besides the pitcher batting 8th thing. In fairness, the Cubs lit up Wacha pretty much every start against him this year. I don't think a healthier or less worked Wacha made much of a difference. I do agree that Martinez would have made a huge difference in Game 1 or 2 as he had pretty solid results against the Cubs all year, minus one start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills_06 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I compared this series with the 03-05 Cubs/Cards series, except flipped. Dusty Baker loved overworking his young pitchers but had no one with any stones in the front office to tell him to stop. Tony La was playing chess compared to Baker's checkers. Dusty always played up the "us against the world" mentality, much like Matheny. LaRussa is probably more of an over-manager than Maddon, but they have very similar philosophies besides the pitcher batting 8th thing. In fairness, the Cubs lit up Wacha pretty much every start against him this year. I don't think a healthier or less worked Wacha made much of a difference. I do agree that Martinez would have made a huge difference in Game 1 or 2 as he had pretty solid results against the Cubs all year, minus one start. 2 of Wacha's 4 starts against the Cubs were in September when he was trending down for the year. The one start in June he only gave up 1 run over 6 IP. The other game he gave up 5 at Wrigley over 6 IP in July and that was the game Molina and Matheny were ejected arguing the strike zone in the 6th after they thought they had the strikeout of Montero to get out of the inning that wasn't called and Montero gets the 3 runs in right after that. Not saying that's the only reason but Molina isn't one ejected often on the strike zone. I just think we will get a better idea of Wacha vs the Cubs next year, too small a sample size to judge a healthy Wacha vs the Cubs rookies right now in my opinion. I also don't think this series was decided by the managers how some make it seem. The manager looks as good or as bad a lot of times based on the performance of the team. Cards had one of the top bullpens all year and that was the Cubs weakness but in this series, the Cards bullpen did not perform while the Cubs did. I didn't like the Siegrest move against Rizzo so can criticize that but either way, this was a worn down Cardinals team and the Cubs were just the better team at this point as they were trending up through the year as the Cards trended down with the injuries. It's a tough spot with young pitchers. It's easy to say not to over work them but the Cards were in a battle for the division title all year. I think just as many people would be complaining about resting a Wacha and Martinez if they lost games started by Cooney and then ended up in the Wild card game and lost there. Just have to hope now they can go the 200 IP next year and be sharp throughout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgeldmacher Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I've said this to others before, but if you are a baseball fan, following NCAA basketball is the perfect compliment sport to get into. Every year, the NCAA basketball season begins immediately after the World Series. Then in the Spring, baseball starts up again the same week as the NCAA final game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 2 of Wacha's 4 starts against the Cubs were in September when he was trending down for the year. The one start in June he only gave up 1 run over 6 IP. The other game he gave up 5 at Wrigley over 6 IP in July and that was the game Molina and Matheny were ejected arguing the strike zone in the 6th after they thought they had the strikeout of Montero to get out of the inning that wasn't called and Montero gets the 3 runs in right after that. Not saying that's the only reason but Molina isn't one ejected often on the strike zone. I just think we will get a better idea of Wacha vs the Cubs next year, too small a sample size to judge a healthy Wacha vs the Cubs rookies right now in my opinion. I also don't think this series was decided by the managers how some make it seem. The manager looks as good or as bad a lot of times based on the performance of the team. Cards had one of the top bullpens all year and that was the Cubs weakness but in this series, the Cards bullpen did not perform while the Cubs did. I didn't like the Siegrest move against Rizzo so can criticize that but either way, this was a worn down Cardinals team and the Cubs were just the better team at this point as they were trending up through the year as the Cards trended down with the injuries. It's a tough spot with young pitchers. It's easy to say not to over work them but the Cards were in a battle for the division title all year. I think just as many people would be complaining about resting a Wacha and Martinez if they lost games started by Cooney and then ended up in the Wild card game and lost there. Just have to hope now they can go the 200 IP next year and be sharp throughout. Tyler Lyons filled in quite nicely throughout the year and we had a pretty good lead until the end and Martinez and Wacha were worn down and less effective. Wacha pitched 149 innings in 2013 which was a huge jump in innings from 12 and his collegiate career. He was fresh down the stretch and in the playoffs, but they worked in a break midseason with him that year. It also probably had something to do with his arm problems in '13. where he pitched just 107 innings then in 14 he's at 181. Tyler Lyons taking 3-4 starts cutting him back 20-25 innings throughout the year would have been fine. Carlos went from 100 innings plus 12 in the winter league for 112 with a career high before that of 104 in '12 to 180 innings by Sept 20th. In todays baseball world, that borders on abuse. Especially Carlos. The same goes for the bullpen Rosie, Maness, and Kevin were worked overly hard. I realize we lost Walden, but we got Cishek and Broxton who both pitched pretty well down the stretch for us and could have given the other relievers a bigger rest imo. Overall, I'm not unhappy with the season. If you told me we'd lose Wainwright, Walden, and Adams for almost the entire season plus Holiday for much of it, I certainly wouldn't have bet on us winning 100 games. Hell I wouldn't have bet we'd win 90. So while I think Matheny was careless with the starters, I also think he did a great job of keeping this team together and playing hard through a lot of adversity. The Cubs are a good team with 2 top pitchers and some very good young bats. They've probably been along with Toronto the best team in baseball over the last 2 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills_06 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I agree with you slufanskip. I would've liked to find more rest time for Wacha and Martinez it's just tough when Cards are in a division that 3 teams have 97 wins or above and you had Lynn complaining that when he got extra rest it didn't help him and everything. It will be an interesting off season to see what the Cards do. Speaking though of pitchers being over used, I am curious to watch Arrieta next round. It looks like his season high in IP was 156 last year and already this year he is up to 243 including post season. The Cardinals had a good approach against him at the plate but he didn't seem as sharp as he had been. The Pirates also had some hard hits against him in WC game but they ended up just being hard outs. He might really be showing that he is human and not a machine like it seemed at the end of the season but we will see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I agree with you slufanskip. I would've liked to find more rest time for Wacha and Martinez it's just tough when Cards are in a division that 3 teams have 97 wins or above and you had Lynn complaining that when he got extra rest it didn't help him and everything. It will be an interesting off season to see what the Cards do. Speaking though of pitchers being over used, I am curious to watch Arrieta next round. It looks like his season high in IP was 156 last year and already this year he is up to 243 including post season. The Cardinals had a good approach against him at the plate but he didn't seem as sharp as he had been. The Pirates also had some hard hits against him in WC game but they ended up just being hard outs. He might really be showing that he is human and not a machine like it seemed at the end of the season but we will see. I actually think had we found the rest, we might have had a better record as we might have still had the 2 pitchers pitching better through the end of the season. A major reason for our late season fade was the lack of a fresh Carlos and Wacha. I'm curious about Arrieta also. Just seems like 90% of the time you have such large innings jump ... arm problems are sure to follow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 248 ip, 16 complete games, 16 wins . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Average per year the LAST 15 years of Bob Gibson's career. And he pitched till he was 40. If you want we can look up Nolan ryan, tom seaver, Gaylord perry, Warren spahn, etc. Todays pitchers are babies. I get sick and tired of hearing about tired arms over use, pitch counts etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 248 ip, 16 complete games, 16 wins . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Average per year the LAST 15 years of Bob Gibson's career. And he pitched till he was 40. If you want we can look up Nolan ryan, tom seaver, Gaylord perry, Warren spahn, etc. Todays pitchers are babies. I get sick and tired of hearing about tired arms over use, pitch counts etc. Todays pitchers also pitch a hell of a lot more as kids and teens. Any player with real potential is playing all year round. Select teams travel throughout the country playing and many of the kids narrow in on one sport in elementary school. The 3 sport athlete is virtually all but gone. Gibson probably played baseball in season only and basketball in season and probably football in season. Sorry, but my time machine won't take us back to the 60's and 70's. You could also look up the careers of plenty of players who were less effective as they aged due to arm problems or great ones that retired early such as Koufax. Money has changed how teams handled pitchers. Back in the 60's and 70's you threw until your arm was dead and then you were gone. There was no 100 to 300 mil investment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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