Questions for the Board

[Bay Area Billiken]

Did SLU ever do something to rub Notre Dame the wrong way? Was there a falling out?

This poster would appreciate input from his elders on this board, and from anyone with knowledge for that matter. I was at SLU from 1978-1985.

SLU played annual home and homes with Notre Dame going into the earlier 1970's. Why did that series end?

What I do know is:

1. SLU played what would now probably be called a buy game at ND under Ekker when I was a SLU undergraduate. We had 27 guys in our dorm room on 6-G watching that game. It was euphoria on Cellblock 6 when Kelvin Henderson dunked on Kelly Tripucka. SLU tied that game at something like 27, and then just got steamrolled. My recollection is that the Wizard of Westwood himself, John Wooden was the TV analyst. I remember Wooden saying, "The Billikens."

2. When I was at SLU Law School during the early Rich Grawer Era, Coach Grawer's Billikens, led by Luther Burden and PeeWee Lenard, nearly pulled off an upset in South Bend, losing a low scoring game in the 40's. Digger Phelps commented about St. Louis coming in here and holding the ball. I've always wondered if that game had some effect on ND not playing SLU.

3. Under Brad Soderberg, that NIT game with ND was mysteriously transferred at the 11th hour to Ft. Wayne, Indiana. It looked like it was going to played in St. Louis, as the Joyce Center was unavailable.

Notre Dame says it still plays Navy in football because the Navy kept the ND campus afloat during WWII.

Well, the first Notre Dame curriculum was the Jesuit curriculum from SLU. What about some ND sentiment coming SLU's way for that?

I bring this up because of what we've been reading this week about the possible Catholic Basketball Conference.

[Cowboy]

-BAB, i do not know the history of a rift, if any, between SLU and the domers

[SLU_Nick]

-BAB, i do not know the history of a rift, if any, between SLU and the domers

I think I hear Metz furiously typing a response to this one...or has he already used up his 5 posts today?

[slu72]

I think I hear Metz furiously typing a response to this one...or has he already used up his 5 posts today?

They're po'd because they think they invented College Football, and when history showed SLU invented the forward pass they immediately took umbrage.

[Bay Area Billiken]

They're po'd because they think they invented College Football, and when history showed SLU invented the forward pass they immediately took umbrage.

LOL!

We have some posters who remember those ND games v. SLU in St. Louis, a memorable game against Austin Carr.

Those look like they were great games.

I've always wondered why the series was discontinued. ND hasn't played SLU in St. Louis since the early 1970's.

[bonwich]

I couldn't find much directly about the ND series, but this little Dave Dorr column from 1984 was instructive in that it cited the MCC as a negative in drumming up good games (and, as an aside, was amusing in that the leading basketball writer in St. Louis at that time didn't know how to pronounce "Krzyzewski"):

Scheduling Big-Time Opponent Is Not Easy

Ed Stewart, an assistant coach on Rich Grawer's staff at St. Louis University, was handed the phone by his boss with explicit directions to 'get us a game with a top 20 team.'

Easier said than done. Scheduling of non- conference opposition is an exact science, not something that coaches wander into aimlessly from season to season. The coach of a team good enough to be in the top 20 weighs carefully every potential opponent, bearing in mind what effects a loss could have on records, rankings and reputation.

Stewart struck out. He heard what he expected to hear in one phone call after another: Thanks, but no thanks.

'Hello, Georgetown? John Thompson? We thought. . . you're not interested, huh? Could we ask Patrick Ewing if he's interested. He's not? OK.'

'Hello, Indiana? Bobby Knight? We thought. . . you're not interested, huh? Another time, maybe.'

'Hello, North Carolina State? Jimmy Valvano? We thought. . . hmmmm. Out of the question, you say? Well, have a good day.'

On a flyer, Stewart called Duke, a team that is in everybody's top 10 heading into the 1984-85 season. Wonder of wonders, Mike Krzyzewski, the Blue Devils' coach, agreed to play the Billikens in St. Louis. Stewart dropped the phone.

'I was shocked, ' said Grawer.

It seemed the natural thing to do was to call Krzyzewski and ask why he said yes when all the other big-name schools rejected St. Louis U.'s request. Playing his season opener on the road incorporates a degree of risk. There is an unwritten code that if you're good, you open at home against a cupcake. One of those hyphenated schools that will come in and get its brains beat out in return for a fat financial guarantee.

Krzyzewski's fascination with a game in St. Louis was two-fold, it turns out. He can satisfy a large contingent of Duke alumni living in this area and he can give a hand to a struggling colleague who hopes some day to have his Billikens in the position that Krzyzewski has his Blue Devils: Among the nation's elite and thinking Final Four.

After all, college basketball coaches have compassion for each other. Theirs is a union without tenure and even though Krzyzewski is at a basketball school in the pearl of basketball leagues -- the Atlantic Coast Conference -- he took his lumps in 17-13, 10- 17 and 11-17 seasons before getting himself established. He's walked the path that Grawer has walked in 5-23 and 12-16 seasons.

'We are a national school and we want to satisfy alumni needs, ' said Krzyzewski. 'St. Louis is an area Duke has not played in since 1978. And St. Louis U. has a rich basketball tradition. Rich has done a nice job of building the program up.'

Grawer is thankful for favors and not unlike a little kid walking down the stairs on Christmas morning tingling with anticipation.

'I think it's neat to play those teams (a Duke, an Indiana, a Georgetown), ' said Grawer. 'We'll be thrilled to death to sit on the bench when Duke comes on the floor.'

Those who cannot pronounce Krzyzewski's name (Kra-shef-ski) simply call him Coach K. The Duke alumni call him ACC Coach of the Year, an honor he received when the Blue Devils compiled a 24-10 record last season. Grawer is beginning his third season at St. Louis U.

The return of Duke to St. Louis stirs memories of the Final Four of 1977-78 and of names from the past -- Mike Gminski, Jim Spanarkel and Gene Banks. How about Kentucky's Twin Towers and Jack 'Goose' Givens? Remember Ron Brewer of Arkansas? The four teams in the finals that season were Duke, Kentucky, Arkansas and Notre Dame. Kentucky defeated Duke in the national championship game, 94-88. If you close your eyes, you can see Givens flashing across the lane putting up those Js -- sweet jumpers, they were.

The Duke team Krzyzewski brings here tonight is far better than the 1977-78 team. This team is missing only a Gminski-type in the middle who could take the Devils to Rupp Arena in Lexington, Ky., in March for the Final Four. Duke might be there anyway. Krzyzewski has the ingredients with a strong frontline in 6-foot-8 Mark Alarie, 6-8 Jay Bilas and 6-7 Dan Meagher, quick guards in Johnny Dawkins and Tommy Amaker and extraordinary team speed. Unless the Devils stumble, they should win the ACC regular- season title. The ACC tournament is something else again. There, you take your chances because upsets abound.

Krzyzewski, one of a number of former Knight pupils now sprinkled across the country as head coaches, is grounded in Knight's affinity for a man-to-man defense. It's a defense that includes principles taught by one of the game's legends, Henry P. Iba, and it wins championships.

Krzyzewski sacrificed some things when he came to Duke from Army in 1980 in order to implement his defense and his system. But he recruited well; two years ago he brought in a group of players considered to be among the best collection of high school talent in America. It included Alarie, Dawkins and Bilas. In playing as many as five freshmen, Krzyzewski built a foundation. Now, it appears, his time is at hand.

We know why Krzyzewski is playing here tonight, so why would Grawer want to pencil in a Duke for his opener when he knew full well he would be in way over his head? What had he boiled up in the war room at the West Pine Gym? He could not find any takers aside from Duke because the other schools St. Louis U. called wanted the Bills to play on their floors first in a home-and-home arrangement. This did not fit needs Grawer saw as important and immediate.

'We're having trouble selling our conference (Midwestern City), ' said Grawer. 'Missouri can sell its (non-conference) schedule based on its conference. People will pay for it because they know Kansas and Oklahoma will be coming in. Our basic problem is a feeling we have that people don't realize our conference is not that bad.'

It's a fact that the MCC suffers from a poor image. A more serious problem St. Louis U. encountered long before Grawer arrived is trying to determine what area fans prefer -- a tarnished record with a schedule loaded with powerhouses or a good record with a schedule of cupcakes. Until Grawer consistently can recruit super players, he can't have his cake and eat it too. He has yet to get an accurate reading on the fans, but Grawer has spunk and he knows what he wants. He'll open at Kiel next season against Georgia Tech and, later in the season, Nebraska will play here. This season, his Bills go to Notre Dame and to Georgia Tech.

Hey, we're trying to show the fans we'll play anybody, ' said Grawer. 'We may be lucky to stay within 18 of Duke, but, hey, we can play. I think this is one of the best St. Louis U. teams in a while.'

Oops. Hold your tongue, coach. Have you forgotten what happened to Warren Powers?

[Bobby Metzinger]

This is an interesting post; my Mother graduated with one of the first graduating classes of female undergrads at Notre Dame (she started off at Quincy, where she met Pops Metz and the rest is history) and then transferred in for the 1975-76 academic year. I was going to do the "Rudy Route" - 2 years at Holy Cross and try to transfer in, but SLU offered me a great tuition/scholarship package and sealed the deal. No regrets for sure. I love being a Billiken.

SLU pre-dates Notre Dame by almost a quarter of a century (1818/1842) and while Notre Dame is certainly the torch bearer among Roman Catholic institutions of higher learning in the United States and a top-20 academic institution by all secular accounts, you could say that it was the Ellis Island for the persecuted Catholic at the dawn of the 20th century. ND's frequent trips to take on the likes of Army in Yankee Stadium and Navy in Baltimore and even battling Michigan in the Rockne Years propelled Notre Dame to a throng of nation-wide "Subway Alums," those Irish fans who would take the train to the Bronx to see epic ND/Army clashes. When folks like Red Barber and Grantland Rice are transcribing the accounts of the game on the radio or in the papers, it becomes part of the fabric of society and Catholics certainly found an identity and a team to root for in Our Lady's University.

The 2004 ND-SLU NIT game baffles me because we couldn't get the then-Savvis Center due to Disney on Ice or something. Couldn't get the game at Rosemont Pavilion or UIC Pavilion due to on-campus events and obviously the United Center wasn't about to host an NIT game, so this "neutral site" game went to pro-ND town Ft. Wayne, Ind.

About 11,000 ND fans, maybe 200 SLU fans made the trek. Chris Thomas decided to have the game of his life and then after the "neutral site" game, Mike Brey had the audacity to grab the PA mic and thank all the ND fans for making the roughly 90 mile drive. SLU folks crammed into a few charter buses with some road beverages and made a stop at White Castle in Indy, which probably did not go over well with whomever was in charge of cleaning said charter bus.

I'd like to see ND and SLU lock horns again, but I think that the air of elitism in South Bend is right up there with whatever the hell it smells like in nearby Gary, Ind. It's unfortunate, but I have no idea what kind of relationship Chris May has with Jack Swarbrick either.

Maybe one day, the rivalry will be renewed, but until then we should really focus on beating the ###### out of Xavier and Dayton.

[Clock_Tower]

Did SLU ever do something to rub Notre Dame the wrong way? Was there a falling out?

This poster would appreciate input from his elders on this board, and from anyone with knowledge for that matter. I was at SLU from 1978-1985.

SLU played annual home and homes with Notre Dame going into the earlier 1970's. Why did that series end?

What I do know is:

1. SLU played what would now probably be called a buy game at ND under Ekker when I was a SLU undergraduate. We had 27 guys in our dorm room on 6-G watching that game. It was euphoria on Cellblock 6 when Kelvin Henderson dunked on Kelly Tripucka. SLU tied that game at something like 27, and then just got steamrolled. My recollection is that the Wizard of Westwood himself, John Wooden was the TV analyst. I remember Wooden saying, "The Billikens."

2. When I was at SLU Law School during the early Rich Grawer Era, Coach Grawer's Billikens, led by Luther Burden and PeeWee Lenard, nearly pulled off an upset in South Bend, losing a low scoring game in the 40's. Digger Phelps commented about St. Louis coming in here and holding the ball. I've always wondered if that game had some effect on ND not playing SLU.

3. Under Brad Soderberg, that NIT game with ND was mysteriously transferred at the 11th hour to Ft. Wayne, Indiana. It looked like it was going to played in St. Louis, as the Joyce Center was unavailable.

Notre Dame says it still plays Navy in football because the Navy kept the ND campus afloat during WWII.

Well, the first Notre Dame curriculum was the Jesuit curriculum from SLU. What about some ND sentiment coming SLU's way for that?

I bring this up because of what we've been reading this week about the possible Catholic Basketball Conference.

Seeing no one else has any concrete reasons, I can only presume it is for the same reasons that Marquette and DePaul don't play us either. ND has been in the very tough Big East for several years now and simply don't have extra time to play schools like SLU. Before they joined the Big East, SLU was flying high in the Great Midwest and Conference USA and SLU found no time to play X, UD or ND.

Comparisons of playing SLU versus Army and Navy are just not accurate. ND wants to be/remain a national team. It's indepence allows it play teams from all over -- from the North (Michigan/Michigan State), from the West (USC, Stanford, Washington) to the South (Miami, Florida State) to locals (Purdue) etc. Army and Navy are about as "national" as an opponent can be and, when coupled with games at the Meadowlands in New York or in Chicago, these games add to such national exposure.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Re Bonwich's post above, I was at the Duke game at Kiel Auditorium. That was my last year at SLU Law School and in St. Louis. We were amazed that Duke was playing our Billikens at Kiel, but the result wasn't pretty: Duke 97 SLU 64.

I looked up info in an old SLU Media Guide. SLU played Notre Dame annually for 6 straight years beginning with Buddy Brehmer's last year of 1968-69 and through all 5 of Bob Polk's years at the helm, 3 in St. Louis and 3 at ND. SLU won 2 of those 6 games. Notre Dame last played SLU in St. Louis on 12/9/72, in the '72-'73 season, with SLU winning 60-58. That SLU team finished 19-7. Polk had 3 real good teams at SLU, and I knew a little bit about the Billikens from what was then afar, growing up in Quincy.

Then SLU under Ekker lost at ND 93-65 in the 1979-80 season, my sophomore year at SLU.

The next meeting was in that same season that SLU hosted Duke, in the 1984-85 season. Rich Grawer's Billikens lost at Notre Dame 48-42. That is the one I remember Digger Phelps' comments about St. Louis coming in here and holding the ball.

After that, the teams did not play until that infamous NIT game in the 2003-04 season, an ND 77-66 win in Ft. Wayne, Indiana.

The last meeting was 2 seasons ago on 11/28/09 in the Chicago Invitational Challenge at the UIC Pavilion. ND won 64-52.

Notre Dame leads the all-time series with SLU 17-14.

[brianstl]

Seeing no one else has any concrete reasons, I can only presume it is for the same reasons that Marquette and DePaul don't play us either. ND has been in the very tough Big East for several years now and simply don't have extra time to play schools like SLU. Before they joined the Big East, SLU was flying high in the Great Midwest and Conference USA and SLU found no time to play X, UD or ND.

Comparisons of playing SLU versus Army and Navy are just not accurate. ND wants to be/remain a national team. It's indepence allows it play teams from all over -- from the North (Michigan/Michigan State), from the West (USC, Stanford, Washington) to the South (Miami, Florida State) to locals (Purdue) etc. Army and Navy are about as "national" as an opponent can be and, when coupled with games at the Meadowlands in New York or in Chicago, these games add to such national exposure.

We played UD every year we were in CUSA.

[Bobby Metzinger]

Bay Area -

You made the right choice.

I stayed on campus at ND several times, attending baseball and football camps there during summers in high school. Stayed in either Alumni or Stanford Hall and the dorms weren't something you'd write home about, but the facilities are top-notch and the campus is obviously pretty nice.

SLU was just the perfect fit for me...having lived out in Ellisville for about 19 months when I was in kindergarten and before the fam packed up and was moved with Caterpillar to Nashville, when I came back to St. Louis it just felt like home to me. South Bend would have been great, but SLU is a university that is aiming for greatness and I know that all of us as alums can make a difference. If you think about it, the "Golden (Dome) Age" of Notre Dame is really a thing of the past, where as SLU's best days are still ahead of her. It's a great time to Be a Billiken.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Bay Area -

You made the right choice.

I stayed on campus at ND several times, attending baseball and football camps there during summers in high school. Stayed in either Alumni or Stanford Hall and the dorms weren't something you'd write home about, but the facilities are top-notch and the campus is obviously pretty nice.

SLU was just the perfect fit for me...having lived out in Ellisville for about 19 months when I was in kindergarten and before the fam packed up and was moved with Caterpillar to Nashville, when I came back to St. Louis it just felt like home to me. South Bend would have been great, but SLU is a university that is aiming for greatness and I know that all of us as alums can make a difference. If you think about it, the "Golden (Dome) Age" of Notre Dame is really a thing of the past, where as SLU's best days are still ahead of her. It's a great time to Be a Billiken.

I've often wondered what it would have been like to be a Domer. I've rooted for ND my whole life in football, from Notre Dame Football on Sunday mornings with Lindsey Nelson and Paul Hornung to the NBC games now with Tom Hammond. Dave Casper is in our parish men's group. Talk about the stories he can tell.

But I'm proud to be a Billiken. We are the ultimate underdogs. It is so good when we win.

[MusicCityBilliken]

I am surprised they did not renew with us in the 90's. They were very mediocre during those years when MacLeod coached. Also, it was our decade (91-00) with 4 NCAAs and a NIT plus the big crowds.

I witnessed in-person 3 out of the last 4 ND games and the one I missed I watched on TV.

1) 70-71 season, the game was played at the Arena. We were winning pretty much the whole game except the last second when Carr sunk a buzzer beater.

2) 71-72 season, was at the Joyce Center and I was not at this game. It was a 92-80 win. What I recall from TV it was never ever close. Also, this was Phelps 1st year. Remember Phelps being quoted that he used the game tape for practice for his players and was very complementary of SLU.

3) 72-73 season, was played in the old Kiel. Very exciting game with Adrian Dantley and Shumate really putting it to us. We did win it 60-58 with a Ghost (Jesse Leonard) shot that kind of came out of nowhere. This maybe the game that Digger got upset about.

4) 73-74 season, was played at the Joyce Center. I made the trip to ND, my cousin was a freshman at ND at the time, and it was a total blowout. The score was 65-94. Needless to say, it was long drive back from So Bend to St Louis after that killing.

One thing about the home games at SLU was the tremendous turnout of ND alums. I would have to say about half of the crowd in the Arena and old Kiel was made up of them. That I think would be a good reason to add us to the schedule.

[Bay Area Billiken]

It used to make me cringe when the Savvis Center wasn't available for SLU NIT games.

Think about that- SLU didn't get to host Notre Dame in an NIT game because of Disney on Ice, or something similar. It was always something.

However, I wonder if SLU would have hosted ND even if Savvis Center had been available.

We watched on TV that Iowa NIT game (the Drejaj buzzer beater), which was played at Family Arena in St. Charles amidst the bumblebee and all the lines painted on the floor. I was hoping we could at least get the Irish at Family Arena. I remember when they announced Ft. Wayne, and thought what in the world? Ft. Wayne?

We were at a Saturday afternoon game against the then SW Mo. State. SLU, coached by Spoon, won in OT, and almost immediately the PA Announcer was announcing to clear the facility because the Blues were playing that night.

That's among the many reasons why I liked the old Kiel Auditorium, where SLU was pretty much the #1 tenant. Plus, it was built for basketball and was a real pit and a great place to watch a game.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I am surprised they did not renew with us in the 90's. They were very mediocre during those years when MacLeod coached. Also, it was our decade (91-00) with 4 NCAAs and a NIT plus the big crowds.

I witnessed in-person 3 out of the last 4 ND games and the one I missed I watched on TV.

1) 70-71 season, the game was played at the Arena. We were winning pretty much the whole game except the last second when Carr sunk a buzzer beater.

2) 71-72 season, was at the Joyce Center and I was not at this game. It was a 92-80 win. What I recall from TV it was never ever close. Also, this was Phelps 1st year. Remember Phelps being quoted that he used the game tape for practice for his players and was very complementary of SLU.

3) 72-73 season, was played in the old Kiel. Very exciting game with Adrian Dantley and Shumate really putting it to us. We did win it 60-58 with a Ghost (Jesse Leonard) shot that kind of came out of nowhere. This maybe the game that Digger got upset about.

4) 73-74 season, was played at the Joyce Center. I made the trip to ND, my cousin was a freshman at ND at the time, and it was a total blowout. The score was 65-94. Needless to say, it was long drive back from So Bend to St Louis after that killing.

One thing about the home games at SLU was the tremendous turnout of ND alums. I would have to say about half of the crowd in the Arena and old Kiel was made up of them. That I think would be a good reason to add us to the schedule.

Thanks Tar Heel.

I remember reading on this board that coins were thrown at the ND team. Did that happen? If so, was that at that last game at the old Kiel?

I remember my first game at the old Kiel in 1978 against Tulane (Ron Coleman's 1 season) and was amazed that the teams went down the ramp from the stage right through the SLU students to get to the court. I thought that was great, along with the then SLU Jazz Band playing "Three Blind Mice" during the game at the refs.

Digger Phelps ripped USF Coach Jim Brovelli the last time ND played USF at USF's War Memorial Gym. USF won an incredible upset over an ND team led by LaPhonso Ellis. Digger told Brovelli that he would never be back to play in this CYO Gym.

OT but re upsets, I told Fordham President Father McShane after commencement in May that I think the greatest upset I've ever seen in my life (this one on the YES Network) was Fordham's upset victory over St. John's last December. I am not kidding. If you saw those two teams, you would say that there was no way Fordham could win- but the Rams won.

[Bobby Metzinger]

I've often wondered what it would have been like to be a Domer. I've rooted for ND my whole life in football, from Notre Dame Football on Sunday mornings with Lindsey Nelson and Paul Hornung to the NBC games now with Tom Hammond. Dave Casper is in our parish men's group. Talk about the stories he can tell.

But I'm proud to be a Billiken. We are the ultimate underdogs. It is so good when we win.

Tom Hammond is the worst thing to happen to ND Broadcasts since Westwood One fired Tony Roberts. The one year they had Dick Enberg in the booth and O.J. Simpson on the sideline (might have been 92 or 93) was the best line-up. Then they went with Don Criqui Charlie Jones for a while.

A long-time family friend of ours, Dr. Paul Gullifor, who heads up the communications dept. at Bradley, wrote a great book about the history of ND on the airwaves. It's a great read worth checking out.

The Fighting Irish on the Air: The History of Notre Dame Football Broadcasting

[Taj79]

I went to South Bend for the 79-80 game where in we got trashed. I had graduated in May 79. I don't think there is anything more than a feeling to this statement but I think Notre Dame treats the lesser college Catholic brethern as second class citizens, much like Mizzou disses other Mssouri schools, much like Kentucky disses louisville, or any other state public/private rivalry. And for the very same reasons .... to them, we are just another ho-hum game, but to us, they are the grail. Kill at all costs. In the great conference hokey-pokey in football, ND is talking ACC ... as in ATLANTIC COAST CONFERENCE. In my mind, they are all BIG TEN. But I believe they believe there are far more patsies to play in the ACC then the BIG ten, expecially if VaTech, Miami and Florida State bolt. Notre Dame look sout fo rNotre dame.

There is absolutley no benefit TO THEM to play us. Just like Mizzou. Seem sliek a natural, a no-brainer. But so doe sus playing Marquette, Boston College, Georgetown, DePaul, Bradley, Dayon and Xavier. At least to me.

[willie]

I went to South Bend for the 79-80 game where in we got trashed. I had graduated in May 79. I don't think there is anything more than a feeling to this statement but I think Notre Dame treats the lesser college Catholic brethern as second class citizens, much like Mizzou disses other Mssouri schools, much like Kentucky disses louisville, or any other state public/private rivalry. And for the very same reasons .... to them, we are just another ho-hum game, but to us, they are the grail. Kill at all costs. In the great conference hokey-pokey in football, ND is talking ACC ... as in ATLANTIC COAST CONFERENCE. In my mind, they are all BIG TEN. But I believe they believe there are far more patsies to play in the ACC then the BIG ten, expecially if VaTech, Miami and Florida State bolt. Notre Dame look sout fo rNotre dame.

There is absolutley no benefit TO THEM to play us. Just like Mizzou. Seem sliek a natural, a no-brainer. But so doe sus playing Marquette, Boston College, Georgetown, DePaul, Bradley, Dayon and Xavier. At least to me.

I think the obvious reason we no longer play ND is they joined a confrence. They no longer need to fill a bunch of dates.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I went to South Bend for the 79-80 game where in we got trashed. I had graduated in May 79. I don't think there is anything more than a feeling to this statement but I think Notre Dame treats the lesser college Catholic brethern as second class citizens, much like Mizzou disses other Mssouri schools, much like Kentucky disses louisville, or any other state public/private rivalry. And for the very same reasons .... to them, we are just another ho-hum game, but to us, they are the grail. Kill at all costs. In the great conference hokey-pokey in football, ND is talking ACC ... as in ATLANTIC COAST CONFERENCE. In my mind, they are all BIG TEN. But I believe they believe there are far more patsies to play in the ACC then the BIG ten, expecially if VaTech, Miami and Florida State bolt. Notre Dame look sout fo rNotre dame.

There is absolutley no benefit TO THEM to play us. Just like Mizzou. Seem sliek a natural, a no-brainer. But so doe sus playing Marquette, Boston College, Georgetown, DePaul, Bradley, Dayon and Xavier. At least to me.

I know, Taj.

But I could never understand why ND played DePaul and Marquette twice a year, even Dayton twice a year, when all four of them were Independents, and all those years there were no ND-SLU meetings.

Look at Marquette. Really the only difference between Marquette (the old Jesuit University X) and SLU that would favor Marquette is its basketball program, and I continue to contend that the SLU program was ahead of Marquette's during the Spoonball Era. Add the post on a Marquette board that ND went to bat for Marquette to get Marquette into the Big East. And I have that memory of someone at ND championing Creighton. Why doesn't ND champion SLU, give us a hand, or at least give us a break by not favoring a competitor?

Is there an answer? That's why I started this thread.

And yes, from my observations of Domers, and some of my friends are Domers, they've got us lowly Billikens lumped in with the Jaspers, Ramblers, Titans, LMU Lions, etc.

[MusicCityBilliken]

Thanks Tar Heel.

I remember reading on this board that coins were thrown at the ND team. Did that happen? If so, was that at that last game at the old Kiel?

I remember my first game at the old Kiel in 1978 against Tulane (Ron Coleman's 1 season) and was amazed that the teams went down the ramp from the stage right through the SLU students to get to the court. I thought that was great, along with the then SLU Jazz Band playing "Three Blind Mice" during the game at the refs.

Digger Phelps ripped USF Coach Jim Brovelli the last time ND played USF at USF's War Memorial Gym. USF won an incredible upset over an ND team led by LaPhonso Ellis. Digger told Brovelli that he would never be back to play in this CYO Gym.

OT but re upsets, I told Fordham President Father McShane after commencement in May that I think the greatest upset I've ever seen in my life (this one on the YES Network) was Fordham's upset victory over St. John's last December. I am not kidding. If you saw those two teams, you would say that there was no way Fordham could win- but the Rams won.

Bay Area, we always got to the old Kiel early so we could get courtside seats. The game did get very testy with the crowd and between the players but I don't recall coin throwing. As I mentioned, it was a great game. The worse thing I ever seen at the old Kiel, might have been the year before, was when we played Dayton. Donoher had his players huddled up in a time-out and out of nowhere a cup full of ice came flying and just barely missed them. That understandably lead to a technical but we did win that game. The old Kiel was a great place to watch a game. No seat was a bad seat. In the student section they had wooden plank floors that when stomping your feet really made the place rock. Also, when the team left the locker room they had the Billiken statue that every player rubbed before going onto the floor.

[Box and Won]

That's among the many reasons why I liked the old Kiel Auditorium, where SLU was pretty much the #1 tenant. Plus, it was built for basketball and was a real pit and a great place to watch a game.

I loved the Kiel. From my childhood memories of it, it was gritty and crappy yet elegant at the same time. I remember it being loud, and it seemed like it gave us a nice home court advantage that we missed up until Chaifetz opened. While the Kiel Auditorium was torn down to make way for the Kielvistrade Center, the Kiel Opera House was retained and after 20 years of dormancy, is about to reopen as the Peabody Opera House. It looks amazing. I'll give a full report after the Wilco concert in a couple of weeks.

I'm glad you didn't go to ND, BAB. Their alumni are incredibly annoying.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Bay Area, we always got to the old Kiel early so we could get courtside seats. The game did get very testy with the crowd and between the players but I don't recall coin throwing. As I mentioned, it was a great game. The worse thing I ever seen at the old Kiel, might have been the year before, was when we played Dayton. Donoher had his players huddled up in a time-out and out of nowhere a cup full of ice came flying and just barely missed them. That understandably lead to a technical but we did win that game. The old Kiel was a great place to watch a game. No seat was a bad seat. In the student section they had wooden plank floors that when stomping your feet really made the place rock. Also, when the team left the locker room they had the Billiken statue that every player rubbed before going onto the floor.

My Uncle told me that back in the glory days, which must have been the 1950's, Bradley, which was then a huge rival, stole the Billiken statue.

In my undergraduate days under Ekker, we sat behind the basket on the north end at the Checkerdome (Arena) perpendicular to the opponent's bench. We could talk to the opponent's players on the bench during the game. With so few people at the games, they could hear us, as could the refs. We used to yell at Denny Crum to put Marty Pulliam in the game. Crum acted like he didn't hear us, but we know he did. The Louisville bench flat out cracked up.

A season ticket holder, I presume, sat across from the opponent's bench in the good seats. I remember him throwing a coin out on the court. Again with a virtually empty, cavernous building, we could hear the coin bouncing around on the wood court.

Another great line was from the North Texas State Coach. When asked what he thought of the Checkerdome, he said, "You could put a lot of hay in this barn."

[superslu]

Did SLU ever do something to rub Notre Dame the wrong way? Was there a falling out?

This poster would appreciate input from his elders on this board, and from anyone with knowledge for that matter. I was at SLU from 1978-1985.

SLU played annual home and homes with Notre Dame going into the earlier 1970's. Why did that series end?

What I do know is:

1. SLU played what would now probably be called a buy game at ND under Ekker when I was a SLU undergraduate. We had 27 guys in our dorm room on 6-G watching that game. It was euphoria on Cellblock 6 when Kelvin Henderson dunked on Kelly Tripucka. SLU tied that game at something like 27, and then just got steamrolled. My recollection is that the Wizard of Westwood himself, John Wooden was the TV analyst. I remember Wooden saying, "The Billikens."

2. When I was at SLU Law School during the early Rich Grawer Era, Coach Grawer's Billikens, led by Luther Burden and PeeWee Lenard, nearly pulled off an upset in South Bend, losing a low scoring game in the 40's. Digger Phelps commented about St. Louis coming in here and holding the ball. I've always wondered if that game had some effect on ND not playing SLU.

3. Under Brad Soderberg, that NIT game with ND was mysteriously transferred at the 11th hour to Ft. Wayne, Indiana. It looked like it was going to played in St. Louis, as the Joyce Center was unavailable.

Notre Dame says it still plays Navy in football because the Navy kept the ND campus afloat during WWII.

Well, the first Notre Dame curriculum was the Jesuit curriculum from SLU. What about some ND sentiment coming SLU's way for that?

I bring this up because of what we've been reading this week about the possible Catholic Basketball Conference.

I'm afraid if we played a home game against ND half the crowd would be pulling for the visitors.

[GoBills]

I'm afraid if we played a home game against ND half the crowd would be pulling for the visitors.

Don't be ridiculous.

[superslu]

Don't be ridiculous.

How so? I was only exaggerating a little bit here. There are plenty of ND fans in StL and it's not like we have some great history of sellouts at Chaifetz. There were plenty of people who showed up to cheer for the Tar Heels when Hansbrough came to town.

Here's a link to an interesting article from the NY Times. Granted it's written about college football, but the article reports that StL is the #9 TV market nationwide for Notre Dame football. I see plenty of ND gear being worn around the StL area.

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/

I hope I'd be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see a large contingent of ND fans for a game at Chaifetz. I think it would make sense for ND to play an occasional game in StL. It's an easy trip and area where they can get players from time to time. Didn't Hansbrough's brother go to ND? It wouldn't have to happen every year, but a home & home every few years wouldn't be a bad idea. I guess the Big East has been such a meat grinder that none of those teams are too eager to play non-conference road games.