brianstl Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I agree with you about why is the travel/geo rivals only an issue for SLU not for other big state schools. That is a perfect example of how out of touch sportswriters can be - they speak out of one side of their face for one school and other side for another. If MU ends up with the SEC or BE then all this talk about SLU not being a good fit for the A10 goes out the window for any of these knuckleheads.Travel would't be that bad in the SEC for Mizzou. Arkansas, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, and Kentucky are pretty easy trips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Maybe college football should start using the the Notre Dame model: one affilliation for football (Independent) and a different affilliation for the rest (Big East). Why must all sports play in the same conference? Keep the Big 12 around except for football. Happens with many football schools right now. In the case of Nebraska and Texas A&M, no doubt they are just fine (for all sports and the universities as a whole) with the Big 10 and SEC. Mizzou would be fine in either the Big 10 or SEC. Texas and OU in the PAC10 seems fine for football but not for the other sports, especially non-revenue sports. In the course of all this "super" conference talk and money for football, there is absolutely no discussion about what is good is for the rest of the other athletes and the rest of the univerity (non-revenue sports, alumni, fans, etc.) other than money. Even schools with strong and cherished men's basketball success (Kansas) get thrown to the scrap heap. Football is king. Wonder if another Title IX lawsuit might not be in the making? We are talking 4 to 5 longer travel dates for football (only over weekends in the Fall) as opposed to multiple games/conferences/events for basketball, volleyball, baseball, softball, track, golf, tennis... As to SLU, this would probably be better to let the non-revenue sports teams be in a conferences with teams closer to home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted September 6, 2011 Author Share Posted September 6, 2011 This whole deal is about gaining market share by the conferences to attract lucrative TV deals. The Pac 12 commissioner already proposed going to 16 teams last year, so the ideal of adding TX, OU, OSU, and TX Tech is not a strectch. With that kind of demographic power, it forces the other BCS conferences to expand as well. Big 10 (currently 12) will likely go East to add Rutgers, Syracuse, and WVU (Penn will object to Pitt). ND will be forced to join as they simply are not attractive as a stand alone any longer. This gives them accces to the NY Markets + all the national ND fan base. The SEC adds TX A&M. The next 3 are Missouri, KU, and KSU. Why? Basketball upgrade. The ACC will then pick the bones of the Big East FB teams; CT, Pitt, UL, and UC. This scenario leaves out TCU (Beast school), ISU and Baylor (Big 12's stepchildren). Looks like Conf USA will have some new members, maybe even add Boise State. Soooo, we'd better start winning to land a spot in the new powerhouse BB only conference that will be comprised mainly of Beast orphans and the best of the A-10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 -interesting thought by clock on conf alignment, not sure it would work but a thought provoker,one thing it does is sort of ruin the original reason for having conferences, but we have seen that idea thrown in the trash in the grab for $$$$$ -it is amazing to me he has a job when i ask folks if they read burwell's articles how many say 'no', i guess i talk to the wrong people -i don't know how this chapter of the conf shakeup will close nor how long will be it be before another chapter is opened but this chapter seems at least 98% being driven by football, maybe 100%, as look at the situation for kansas one of the top bball schools and hardly a mention Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Metzinger Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 -interesting thought by clock on conf alignment, not sure it would work but a thought provoker,one thing it does is sort of ruin the original reason for having conferences, but we have seen that idea thrown in the trash in the grab for $$$$$ -it is amazing to me he has a job when i ask folks if they read burwell's articles how many say 'no', i guess i talk to the wrong people -i don't know how this chapter of the conf shakeup will close nor how long will be it be before another chapter is opened but this chapter seems at least 98% being driven by football, maybe 100%, as look at the situation for kansas one of the top bball schools and hardly a mention You can get 70-80k into a stadium six times a year...that's why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Travel would't be that bad in the SEC for Mizzou. Arkansas, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, and Kentucky are pretty easy trips. Fair point except none of those places are any closer than Dayton or X is for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Fair point except none of those places are any closer than Dayton or X is for us.I don't think travel is an issue for the basketball team. I think it can be an issue for the non revenue generating sports. That said, the A10 was our best option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I don't think travel is an issue for the basketball team. I think it can be an issue for the non revenue generating sports. That said, the A10 was our best option. I would agree with you but those other schools have minor revenue sports that have to travel so while it is not a problem for football or bb for them it still is a problem for their minor teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyDawg Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I guess if the 8 bb only BE teams look for 4 more teams then the A10 could slip to 12 teams but if Temple and Nova want to be upgraded for football then that could make things really interesting for SLU. I really do not think that only the A10 will be poached then - think about Butler joining the new bb only league so the choices really do get interesting. By the way the bb only BE teams really no longer have to be held hostage by ND - ND is in the BE only because the league thought that if ND ever changed their mind about being independent for fb then they would be the likely choice for them to join, I actually think ND could find itself outside looking in. This is why Butler will never join another existing conference - this break-up of the Big East and the resulting fall out isn't just a possibility, its a likelihood. I think if the SEC and Pac-10 go to 16, the Big Ten hits Yahtzee and gets Texas and Notre Dame. Iowa State, Baylor, and possiblity a couple others have nowhere to go other than Conference USA or MWC. What becomes REALLY interesting is that if the Big East loses who they could be losing on the football side (Pitt, WVU, etc) and the MWC gains said teams, I think you are looking at a change in auto-qualifier status. This, of course, would hasten the consolidation of like schools in conferences (new or otherwise) Put that non-football, post Big East fallout conference on paper - its a Top 2-4 basketball league every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 This is why Butler will never join another existing conference - this break-up of the Big East and the resulting fall out isn't just a possibility, its a likelihood. Oh, it's going to happen. TX A&M yesterday confirmed they are applying for membership in the SEC. There may not be a viable Big 12 come next March, if that long. There will be a domino effect and the Beast will go the way of the Big 12. I only hope our AD is on top of this and talking to X and Dayton about a 3 team deal w/ the Beast BB only schools. If we get cut out of that, then we might as well join the MVC, which would be a sad turn of events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Oh, it's going to happen. TX A&M yesterday confirmed they are applying for membership in the SEC. There may not be a viable Big 12 come next March, if that long. There will be a domino effect and the Beast will go the way of the Big 12. I only hope our AD is on top of this and talking to X and Dayton about a 3 team deal w/ the Beast BB only schools. If we get cut out of that, then we might as well join the MVC, which would be a sad turn of events. If there is anything the Big 12 saga has shown is that there is no such thing as "alliances" or multi-team "deals" or anything of the sort. Basically, its every school for themself and screw the rest of the conference if it puts you in a better position. Unless the fine schools of the Big East and A-10 are of better moral character than the schools of the Big 12, the simple reality is it will be every school for itself. I would fully expect Xavier and Dayton to leave SLU in a second if it meant the invite they wanted, just like we would leave them in a heartbeat if the opportunity presents itself (which we did in the 90s). No, the only way SLU is going to end up on the right side of the shuffle is to win big on the court this year so that when the powers that be make decisions they will view us as an NCAA caliber program, with a relatively big media market and a fan base that can fill the Chaifetz. Expecting to hang on the coat-tails of Dayton and Xavier won't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 If there is anything the Big 12 saga has shown is that there is no such thing as "alliances" or multi-team "deals" or anything of the sort. Basically, its every school for themself and screw the rest of the conference if it puts you in a better position. Unless the fine schools of the Big East and A-10 are of better moral character than the schools of the Big 12, the simple reality is it will be every school for itself. I would fully expect Xavier and Dayton to leave SLU in a second if it meant the invite they wanted, just like we would leave them in a heartbeat if the opportunity presents itself (which we did in the 90s). No, the only way SLU is going to end up on the right side of the shuffle is to win big on the court this year so that when the powers that be make decisions they will view us as an NCAA caliber program, with a relatively big media market and a fan base that can fill the Chaifetz. Expecting to hang on the coat-tails of Dayton and Xavier won't work. -i agree with kshoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Unless the fine schools of the Big East and A-10 are of better moral character than the schools of the Big 12, the simple reality is it will be every school for itself. I would fully expect Xavier and Dayton to leave SLU in a second if it meant the invite they wanted, just like we would leave them in a heartbeat if the opportunity presents itself (which we did in the 90s). +1. And do to us what we did to X and UD fleeing the MCC for the Great Midwest Conference. X was not wanted in the Great Midwest because of Cincy. Now, Cincy will be in a football conference so X will be attractive to keep that market. UD, though, is not a given b/c their past success has not been equal to X and the Dayton TV market is basically the same as the Cincy market as Dayton and Cincy are only 45 minutes to 1 hour apart with subards expanding in both directions toward one another. Certainly, they are separate cities with separate downtowns but their TV markets overlap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 +1. And do to us what we did to X and UD fleeing the MCC for the Great Midwest Conference. X was not wanted in the Great Midwest because of Cincy. Now, Cincy will be in a football conference so X will be attractive to keep that market. UD, though, is not a given b/c their past success has not been equal to X and the Dayton TV market is basically the same as the Cincy market as Dayton and Cincy are only 45 minutes to 1 hour apart with subards expanding in both directions toward one another. Certainly, they are separate cities with separate downtowns but their TV markets overlap. Kshoe's probably right about alliances. We all know how MU and DePaul stuck with us when CUSA got raided. But let's look at the numbers for a second and what would be left of the Beast if it FB schools go elsewhere. NOVA, GU, ST J,, PROV, SHALL, MU, DEPAUL, ND. Take out ND as they will take their football and go to the Big 10. That leaves 7 teams, so they invite X, DU, and Duquense for sure. Giving them a ten team conference. But if they add SLU and say Detroit (granted that might be a stretch) or Creighton, they have TV exposure in most of the countries major TV markets and can round out the divisions into West and East to cut down on travel expenses. I can't see why SLU would be left out no matter how we do on the court. The rest don't care if they have a doormat to beat up on every year. Not saying we would be, just that it doesn't matter. Like N.Western playing in the Big 10 or Vandy (football) in the SEC. East Div is: GU, St. John, Prov, S.Hall, Nova, and Duquense. West is X, UD, SLU, MU, DePaul, and a Creighton or a Detroit. Perfect. Get her done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Kshoe's probably right about alliances. We all know how MU and DePaul stuck with us when CUSA got raided. But let's look at the numbers for a second and what would be left of the Beast if it FB schools go elsewhere. NOVA, GU, ST J,, PROV, SHALL, MU, DEPAUL, ND. Take out ND as they will take their football and go to the Big 10. That leaves 7 teams, so they invite X, DU, and Duquense for sure. Giving them a ten team conference. But if they add SLU and say Detroit (granted that might be a stretch) or Creighton, they have TV exposure in most of the countries major TV markets and can round out the divisions into West and East to cut down on travel expenses. I can't see why SLU would be left out no matter how we do on the court. The rest don't care if they have a doormat to beat up on every year. Not saying we would be, just that it doesn't matter. Like N.Western playing in the Big 10 or Vandy (football) in the SEC. East Div is: GU, St. John, Prov, S.Hall, Nova, and Duquense. West is X, UD, SLU, MU, DePaul, and a Creighton or a Detroit. Perfect. Get her done. If conferences were starting from scratch today there is no way Northwestern or Vandy would get invites to the Big 10 or SEC so those examples are irrelevant. What if the Big East basketball schools decide they want Butler or UMass or just want to go to 10 teams instead of 12? There are plenty of ways we could get excluded but if we are good on the court it will make it a lot harder to be ignored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Kshoe's probably right about alliances. We all know how MU and DePaul stuck with us when CUSA got raided. But let's look at the numbers for a second and what would be left of the Beast if it FB schools go elsewhere. NOVA, GU, ST J,, PROV, SHALL, MU, DEPAUL, ND. Take out ND as they will take their football and go to the Big 10. That leaves 7 teams, so they invite X, DU, and Duquense for sure. Giving them a ten team conference. But if they add SLU and say Detroit (granted that might be a stretch) or Creighton, they have TV exposure in most of the countries major TV markets and can round out the divisions into West and East to cut down on travel expenses. I can't see why SLU would be left out no matter how we do on the court. The rest don't care if they have a doormat to beat up on every year. Not saying we would be, just that it doesn't matter. Like N.Western playing in the Big 10 or Vandy (football) in the SEC. East Div is: GU, St. John, Prov, S.Hall, Nova, and Duquense. West is X, UD, SLU, MU, DePaul, and a Creighton or a Detroit. Perfect. Get her done. Duquense for sure? I think not. It would be a boat race among many schools if the BE went to 10 teams, bball only. If they went to 12 teams (bball only) with east and west divisions, then I like SLU's chances of being one of the teams in the west division: X, UD, SLU, MU, DePaul, ???. That would be one high caliber division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 If conferences were starting from scratch today there is no way Northwestern or Vandy would get invites to the Big 10 or SEC so those examples are irrelevant. What if the Big East basketball schools decide they want Butler or UMass or just want to go to 10 teams instead of 12? There are plenty of ways we could get excluded but if we are good on the court it will make it a lot harder to be ignored. If they did only go to 10 teams I'd see us having a better chance than Dayton. Bigger market, new arena, etc. Still, we'd be no shoo in as UD has unreal fan support. But from a performance standpoint they haven't done all that much to distinguish themselves. Yes, more than us, but that's not saying much. X obviously gets in as UC would leave and they have started a great tradition there. I hope I'm not grasping at straws, Kshoe, because it would hurt if we weren't included in a conference like this. We'd likely end up in the MVC or the Horizon. By the way, I think Butler's perfectly content where they are and wouldn't move. They dominate the Horizon which hasn't hurt their recruiting, have a sound OOC schedule, and just about guaranteed an invite. They start messing with the GU's and Nova's of the world all bets are off for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 -to favorably compare our history to marq, even at the end of cusa, is looking big time through SLU colored glasses, and that is what we should do, just don't expect those making the invite list to do the same -if we are counting on one season, the upcoming one, to enhance our status as to getting an invite somewhere i also think that is looking big time through SLU colored glasses as wouldn't most see that as an aberration, one ncaa invite in 12 yrs? -hopefully we have a few yrs to be a regular ncaa team so we are an attractive dance partner -i hope we get to a super conf where we can stay and prosper for many years, this nomadic bullhsit is not good for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 -to favorably compare our history to marq, even at the end of cusa, is looking big time through SLU colored glasses, and that is what we should do, just don't expect those making the invite list to do the same -if we are counting on one season, the upcoming one, to enhance our status as to getting an invite somewhere i also think that is looking big time through SLU colored glasses as wouldn't most see that as an aberration, one ncaa invite in 12 yrs? -hopefully we have a few yrs to be a regular ncaa team so we are an attractive dance partner -i hope we get to a super conf where we can stay and prosper for many years, this nomadic bullhsit is not good for us IF there is any conference shifting that effects us, we have already done a couple of major things that have demonstrated that we are committed to having a quality basketball program - we built an outstanding on campus arena and have hired a big name coach. We're in a pretty big market which also helps. Now we need to string together some trips to the NCAA Tourney. Even if we have all of those things working in our favor, we will still need a healthy dose of luck. There are a lot of factors that are out of our control. While from our perspective an all Catholic basketball super conference seems to make a lot of sense, that doesn't guarantee anything, because a lot of the conference shifts that have already taken place and the rumored conference shuffling does not seem logical. For all we know, we could wind up in a conference that looks something like this - Santa Clara, New Mexico State, UC Santa Barbara, Detroit, Mercer, St. Joseph's, Elon, Valpo and Niagara. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
For-DaLove Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Edit: I apologize, I posted in the wrong thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 IF there is any conference shifting that effects us, we have already done a couple of major things that have demonstrated that we are committed to having a quality basketball program - we built an outstanding on campus arena and have hired a big name coach. We're in a pretty big market which also helps. Now we need to string together some trips to the NCAA Tourney. Even if we have all of those things working in our favor, we will still need a healthy dose of luck. There are a lot of factors that are out of our control. While from our perspective an all Catholic basketball super conference seems to make a lot of sense, that doesn't guarantee anything, because a lot of the conference shifts that have already taken place and the rumored conference shuffling does not seem logical. For all we know, we could wind up in a conference that looks something like this - Santa Clara, New Mexico State, UC Santa Barbara, Detroit, Mercer, St. Joseph's, Elon, Valpo and Niagara. Bay Area Billiken, aka the Left Coast Don Quixote, is concerned about where all this leaves SLU. There is said to be a Big East offer to Mizzou, Kansas, and K-State. The Big East is trying to stay together. If that happens, SLU's options are the same as they have been since C-USA, namely A-10 or those three forbidden letters on this board, MVC. Syracuse and Georgetown carry significant weight and want to continue their rivalry in hoops. Everytime the Big East has been expected to implode, to schism, it has not done so. There actually could be a 20 team Big East on the horizon. Baylor and now Iowa State as of yesterday had not agreed to waivers of litigation if the Big XII implodes. There may be more news as I type of which I'm not yet aware, but there is a chance the Big XII will remain in business. The big key there seems to be what Oklahoma does. The alumni at OU seem to be solidly against OU going to the Pac-12(16), but there was a report that Cal was going to go to bat for OU to get OU into the AAU, which would be an enticing carrot to the academicians in Norman. But Cal had best consider fully what it seeks. I still remember the Norman Conquest (OU 77 Mizzou 0). That could be Cal in the role of Mizzou. I'm looking forward to seeing Colorado's Ralphie rumble in Strawberry Canyon. But what if Bevo stands in a corner and the Sooner Schooner rides in Berkeley too? As of yesterday, it was as OU goes (or doesn't go), so goes the Big XII. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyDawg Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 If they did only go to 10 teams I'd see us having a better chance than Dayton. Bigger market, new arena, etc. Still, we'd be no shoo in as UD has unreal fan support. But from a performance standpoint they haven't done all that much to distinguish themselves. Yes, more than us, but that's not saying much. X obviously gets in as UC would leave and they have started a great tradition there. I hope I'm not grasping at straws, Kshoe, because it would hurt if we weren't included in a conference like this. We'd likely end up in the MVC or the Horizon. By the way, I think Butler's perfectly content where they are and wouldn't move. They dominate the Horizon which hasn't hurt their recruiting, have a sound OOC schedule, and just about guaranteed an invite. They start messing with the GU's and Nova's of the world all bets are off for them.Butler would absolutely move. Barry Collier has more than once said that they always are evaluating. Something starting with Marquette and Xavier is what you always hear. Filling the remaining 5 or 7 isn't too difficult (traveling partners theory) Butler hasn't moved because there isn't a conference of peer programs that currently exists. ----- Using football as the first guide, then region/basketball, and other factors this is what I came to a while back (of course things on the periphery could move around) BUTLER MARQUETTE XAVIER DAYTON DEPAUL DREXEL GEORGETOWN ST JOHNS PROVIDENCE SETON HALL And, of course, since this thing would be the basketball-only response to the football-conference arms race, the strongest programs are going to get offered (to gain that ubiquitous "high major" tag for the league) ***Assuming Villanova does, in fact, make the FBS move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 -to favorably compare our history to marq, even at the end of cusa, is looking big time through SLU colored glasses, and that is what we should do, just don't expect those making the invite list to do the same -if we are counting on one season, the upcoming one, to enhance our status as to getting an invite somewhere i also think that is looking big time through SLU colored glasses as wouldn't most see that as an aberration, one ncaa invite in 12 yrs? -hopefully we have a few yrs to be a regular ncaa team so we are an attractive dance partner -i hope we get to a super conf where we can stay and prosper for many years, this nomadic bullhsit is not good for us Performance on the basketball is only one measure -- especially recent and/or short term. Believe alot of folks focus too much on that with Marquette as reason for their inclusion in the Big East. Not that their Final Four appearance just prior to selection hurt them but Marquette has long had solid and strong support from Milwaukee, their alums and their students. The size of the school, their tradition being a strong team in the 60's and 70's culminating with Al Mcguire's national championship in 1977, their being a solid and respectable program thereafter, their facilities and attendance figures, their being a large Catholic school similar to many other Big East programs all did just as much, if not more. SLU held its own and did well against Marquette when we played them each year but Marquette was the better program. We were still practicing in West Pine gym with game rentals at Savvis. SLU could sure use the success on the court because we lack in so many other areas. Still, our program heading in the right direction (RM, Chaveitz/new facilities), our relatively large TV market of St. Louis, our large/quality Jesuit school/academics, our urban location/airport, our prior conference affiliations with Marquette, DePaul, our current conference affiliation with X and UD are really our best arguments. Money is driving these conferences and our TV market and recent commitment to NCAA sports will hopefully be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonwich Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 SLU held its own and did well against Marquette when we played them each year but Marquette was the better program. Only because they had a five-second rule that was different than every other team in college basketball. (No, I'm never going to let that one go. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Only because they had a five-second rule that was different than every other team in college basketball. (No, I'm never going to let that one go. ) I was at that game in Milwaukee. Down one with less than a minute to go, Fisher drives into the lane and as he's about to jump for a 7 footer the whistle blows... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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