Conference shakeups-again but for real?

[Bay Area Billiken]

If the Big East basketball teams split, how big do you think the conference would have to be to include SLU? I guess it depends somewhat on Notre Dame. If ND stays on board, I would guess that Xavier and Butler would be the first 2 picks if they'd want it. I'm thinking it would have to go to 12 teams to include the Bills. I don't think there's as much incentive to have huge basketball conferences vs. football.

I agree re 12, and SLU is in the hunt as #12, at best as #11. The competition is Dayton and Creighton, some think St. Joe's, but I don't agree due to the Villanova block, that is as long as Villanova is in the Big East itself.

But would they even go to 12, or would they only go to 10?

What I want to see happen is the SLU program gets in NCAA Tournaments, hopefully even wins some games there, which again hopefully would put SLU back in front of Butler where SLU belongs.

In advance, I haven't been living in a cave the last 2 years, and know full well where Butler has been those last 2 years, and also where Butler has been the last decade.

But the way I see it, through my Billiken Blue hued lenses (not Butler Blue) is this is supposed to be the CATHOLIC Big East, the long sought Papal or Vatican Conference. So why would our Catholic brethren schools be inviting Butler into that? That's a rhetorical question, and what I've read this week makes me cringe. Of course, we all know the answer to the question.

[superslu]

I agree re 12, and SLU is in the hunt as #12, at best as #11. The competition is Dayton and Creighton, some think St. Joe's, but I don't agree due to the Villanova block, that is as long as Villanova is in the Big East itself.

But would they even go to 12, or would they only go to 10?

What I want to see happen is the SLU program gets in NCAA Tournaments, hopefully even wins some games there, which again hopefully would put SLU back in front of Butler where SLU belongs.

In advance, I haven't been living in a cave the last 2 years, and know full well where Butler has been those last 2 years, and also where Butler has been the last decade.

But the way I see it, through my Billiken Blue hued lenses (not Butler Blue) is this is supposed to be the CATHOLIC Big East, the long sought Papal or Vatican Conference. So why would our Catholic brethren schools be inviting Butler into that? That's a rhetorical question, and what I've read this week makes me cringe. Of course, we all know the answer to the question.

Catholic probably less important than urban and private and decent academics. They happen to coincide a lot.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Catholic probably less important than urban and private and decent academics. They happen to coincide a lot.

Winning (successful) basketball program.

[cheeseman]

If Texas had what these other conferences wanted, why have they been rejected by the ACC and Pac 12? It looks like Texas really screwed this one up. 2 years ago they were the lead team in what was probably the second best football conference behind the SEC. They had more money rolling in than the other teams in the conference and a clear path to a BCS bid. Now they're begging to get in the ACC and getting passed over by Pitt. They've begged a&m and oklahoma to stay. Now they're lucky to be part of a diminished Big 12. Texas is a great example of being blinded by greed and overplaying your hand. The program will always be fine, but I doubt they'll ever have the same position of strength in a quality conference again. What a pathetic mess the big 12 is.

Can you say Netflix. Looks like OU is putting the screws to Texas and that is how it should be given their bullshi#. Bebee is being fired (Big 12 commish) and equal revenue sharing is being pushed in the conf. Now all we have to wait for is Texas to agree - who knows if they will or not. If I am MO - I would keep this SEC invite thing going as long as I can to add additional pressure to TX. No other conf in the league wants to deal with the Longhorn Network and TX now knows how unrealistic they were in demanding this of the Big 12 last year - what goes around comes around. If you are another school why would you think of joining the Big 12 with all this uncertainty?

[cheeseman]

I agree re 12, and SLU is in the hunt as #12, at best as #11. The competition is Dayton and Creighton, some think St. Joe's, but I don't agree due to the Villanova block, that is as long as Villanova is in the Big East itself.

But would they even go to 12, or would they only go to 10?

What I want to see happen is the SLU program gets in NCAA Tournaments, hopefully even wins some games there, which again hopefully would put SLU back in front of Butler where SLU belongs.

In advance, I haven't been living in a cave the last 2 years, and know full well where Butler has been those last 2 years, and also where Butler has been the last decade.

But the way I see it, through my Billiken Blue hued lenses (not Butler Blue) is this is supposed to be the CATHOLIC Big East, the long sought Papal or Vatican Conference. So why would our Catholic brethren schools be inviting Butler into that? That's a rhetorical question, and what I've read this week makes me cringe. Of course, we all know the answer to the question.

I am not so sure that Creighton is such a threat - actually they have not played all that well recently and why would an Eastern centered league want to go to Neb? I think the league would not be only Catholic schools - Butler would be invited but they may say no as you stated in an earlier post. I still think schools like Dayton or left out because of X as are all the other eastern schools that already have a school in the Big East. TV will dominate this discussion and only major markets will get in.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I am not so sure that Creighton is such a threat - actually they have not played all that well recently and why would an Eastern centered league want to go to Neb? I think the league would not be only Catholic schools - Butler would be invited but they may say no as you stated in an earlier post. I still think schools like Dayton or left out because of X as are all the other eastern schools that already have a school in the Big East. TV will dominate this discussion and only major markets will get in.

I think Butler might say no to the A-10, but not to the Basketball (Catholic) Big East- I think Butler would jump at the chance for that.

One of my qualms re Creighton is that during one of the times this came up, in relatively more recent history, an official in the Athletic Dept. at Notre Dame, my recollection is he had baseball ties, was championing Creighton's candidacy. That was very disconcerting and frankly a bit surprising. Notre Dame is very influential, and is said to have championed Marquette's Big East candidacy.

Of course, I think SLU should be picked ahead of a Creighton- geography, bigger media market, etc.

But Creighton plays in that big new Quest Center, draws big crowds, and has had a successful basketball program, multiple post-season bids.

My citing that internet poll on a Marquette board was met with objections on this board. But the final results are very interesting, in my opinion, perhaps a foreshadowing of what could well have actually happened.

Butler actually garnered more votes than Notre Dame and finished 8th with 106 votes. The cutoff was 11 for a 12 team league, as Marquette is a given member of the 12. SLU finished in 11th place, which would be the last team in, with 43 votes. Creighton finished 12th, the first team out, with 41 votes. There was a big gap between SLU at #11 and #10 Dayton, which had 77 votes. Xavier, an overwhelming choice, finished in 4th place with 123 votes. See muscoop.com.

And another key is this poll is based upon a 12 team conference. The word this week was that Xavier and Butler would have received the first 2 invitations. And that could well have been for a 10 team, not 12 team, conference, at least at first. So if SLU is the 12th team for a 10 team league, that is not good.

Yes, I know that an internet poll of one school's posters on a message board is not dispositive, that the Basketball Big East is not going to base any such decision on an internet poll of fans, etc., et al. But that poll is just that, a poll, albeit an unscientific one. And it does show perception, as in outside perception of programs.

That's why the magical word for SLU is deferral, put this off. Strengthen the program, get in the NCAA Tournament, win games once SLU gets there. And get the program to the point wherein SLU is the school that gets picked, in which SLU's program is ahead of schools like Dayton, Butler, and Creighton, wherein SLU is like Xavier, a no questions asked given. It could happen. It almost did already. The potential is still there.

If you aren't going to get picked now, it is better to put things off and be chosen later.

Bill DeWitt has run a largely successful St. Louis National League franchise, with many player salary decisions based upon that magical word, deferral.

Deferral can be good.

[cheesycow]

Can you say Netflix. Looks like OU is putting the screws to Texas and that is how it should be given their bullshi#. Bebee is being fired (Big 12 commish) and equal revenue sharing is being pushed in the conf. Now all we have to wait for is Texas to agree - who knows if they will or not. If I am MO - I would keep this SEC invite thing going as long as I can to add additional pressure to TX. No other conf in the league wants to deal with the Longhorn Network and TX now knows how unrealistic they were in demanding this of the Big 12 last year - what goes around comes around. If you are another school why would you think of joining the Big 12 with all this uncertainty?

I don't think Texas would deign to gives a crap about where Mizzou ends up. I'm hopeful that Mizzou finally just puts the screws to Texas and Oklahoma (The saviors of the big 12 the past two years who also happened to be the ones holding the knife to the conference) and just bolts. Big 12 would probably survive, but it would no longer be in the top 3 conferences for football year in and year out, and we wouldn't have to deal with texas anymore.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I don't think Texas would deign to gives a crap about where Mizzou ends up. I'm hopeful that Mizzou finally just puts the screws to Texas and Oklahoma (The saviors of the big 12 the past two years who also happened to be the ones holding the knife to the conference) and just bolts. Big 12 would probably survive, but it would no longer be in the top 3 conferences for football year in and year out, and we wouldn't have to deal with texas anymore.

FWIW, I think Mizzou is better off in the Big XII and would be the Ole Miss of the Midwest in the SEC, sometimes good, but never good enough, and sometimes not so good.

Mizzou in the SEC might not have to deal with Texas, or even Oklahoma, but would have to deal with the likes of Florida, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Tennessee, etc.

Also being in the SEC would take Mizzou away from its Texas recruiting base, as in 40 players on the roster. Yes, Texas A&M presumably would be in the SEC, but Texas (Big XII) is more important than A&M, even if the Aggies would deny that.

[cheesycow]

FWIW, I think Mizzou is better off in the Big XII and would be the Ole Miss of the Midwest in the SEC, sometimes good, but never good enough, and sometimes not so good.

Mizzou in the SEC might not have to deal with Texas, or even Oklahoma, but would have to deal with the likes of Florida, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Tennessee, etc.

Also being in the SEC would take Mizzou away from its Texas recruiting base, as in 40 players on the roster. Yes, Texas A&M presumably would be in the SEC, but Texas (Big XII) is more important than A&M, even if the Aggies would deny that.

I think there's some truth to what you're saying (Although I would hope Arkansas would be a more apt comparison... average around 7-8 wins a year, occasionally the stars align and we hit 10-11 wins), but it's not competition that is driving big 12 fans crazy with Texas, it's their dominant position in league affairs. I'd prefer to be in a conference that was looking out for the interests of all of its members, rather than the elephant in the room.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I think there's some truth to what you're saying (Although I would hope Arkansas would be a more apt comparison... average around 7-8 wins a year, occasionally the stars align and we hit 10-11 wins), but it's not competition that is driving big 12 fans crazy with Texas, it's their dominant position in league affairs. I'd prefer to be in a conference that was looking out for the interests of all of its members, rather than the elephant in the room.

Or in this case, the big Longhorn in the room.

Yes, I agree with you re Arkansas being a good comparison.

[bonwich]

And another favorite was the late Jack Carney. I still cite Ms. Blue from time to time, "All is well."

Slightly OT, but Jack's son John was the late-night guy on KMOX for a decade or so until they pushed him to their Alanis Monistat FM affiliate when KMOX got the Cardinals back. I did the show every Tuesday night ("Restaurant Tuesday"). If you closed your eyes (or, I suppose, you could keep them open since it was, after all, radio) you'd never know the difference between Jack's voice and John's voice.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I think Butler might say no to the A-10, but not to the Basketball (Catholic) Big East- I think Butler would jump at the chance for that.

One of my qualms re Creighton is that during one of the times this came up, in relatively more recent history, an official in the Athletic Dept. at Notre Dame, my recollection is he had baseball ties, was championing Creighton's candidacy. That was very disconcerting and frankly a bit surprising. Notre Dame is very influential, and is said to have championed Marquette's Big East candidacy.

Deferral can be good.

Will *recent* NCAA Tournament "success" really be an overwhelming factor? If so, then how can DePaul, Seton Hall, and St. John's feel secure (other than the fact that they are already in the conference -- and how, exactly, did DePaul merit an invitation in the first place)? Every conference has bottom feeders, even if things do tend to go in cycles. Couldn't SLU offer a Midwest-East Coast basketball conference more than Butler, Dayton, Duquesne, Saint Joseph's, or Seton Hall based on a number of factors, including unique media market and facilities? Consider that SLU can still negotiate to play some games at Scottrade (like for conference-showdown televised doubleheaders, like when SLU hosted UMass as part of a doubleheader some 15 years ago, or so).

I think SLU and Father Biondi have some selling points other than the deterrent of not having played in an NCAA Tournament since 2000.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Will *recent* NCAA Tournament "success" really be an overwhelming factor? If so, then how can DePaul, Seton Hall, and St. John's feel secure (other than the fact that they are already in the conference -- and how, exactly, did DePaul merit an invitation in the first place)? Every conference has bottom feeders, even if things do tend to go in cycles. Couldn't SLU offer a Midwest-East Coast basketball conference more than Butler, Dayton, Duquesne, Saint Joseph's, or Seton Hall based on a number of factors, including unique media market and facilities? Consider that SLU can still negotiate to play some games at Scottrade (like for conference-showdown televised doubleheaders, like when SLU hosted UMass as part of a doubleheader some 15 years ago, or so).

I think SLU and Father Biondi have some selling points other than the deterrent of not having played in an NCAA Tournament since 2000.

Absolutely re the first part of your last sentence, and you are speaking to the choir.

To answer your questions:

It seems from what we've read this week that recent NCAA Tournament success makes a difference. That's evidently what would make Xavier and especially Butler the supposed first two picks.

Also rans like DePaul and Seton Hall (charter Big East member) are grandfathered in. DePaul presumably got picked to begin with because it brings the Chicago market (#3) and it has a prior sports relationship with Notre Dame (as does Marquette). Further, it is geographically close to Notre Dame.

St. John's is a charter Big East member with contractual pull at Madison Square Garden. St. John's is known as the basketball school in New York City, the nation's largest media market. And the St. John's program is clearly on the upswing under Coach Steve Lavin. I loved seeing the Johnnies destroy Duke last season, especially after Fordham beat St. John's earlier in the season.

I think SLU could offer more than a whole host of these supposed competitors, such as Dayton, Creighton, Butler, Duquesne, St. Joe's. SLU can offer more than Seton Hall, although that is probably irrelevant as Seton Hall appears to be grandfathered in. All SLU has to do is upgrade the outside perception of its basketball program, and the best way to do that is NCAA Tournament bids and then NCAA Tournament wins.

[Bobby Metzinger]

TCU's pending defection to the Big 12 will be its fifth conference switch (SWC > WAC > C-USA > MtnWest > Big East > Big 12) in 16 years.

My bad for not including a link:

Here it is

http://campuscorner.kansascity.com/node/2110

Although watching the Frogs get absolutely manhandled by Southern Methodist last Saturday, you have to start wondering if Patterson can sustain success in Cowtown. If you thought there was some good mutual admiration between Patterson and June Jones, that has gone out the window. I don't think the balance of college football power in DFW has shifted from Ft. Worth to Dallas, but Jones has changed the culture on Mockingbird Lane and has SMU rolling right now and should parlay that success into a better conference than C-USA.

**Breaking** TCU officials will hold a presser at 11:30 CDT today making the formal announcement.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I still think the dominoes don't start falling until the Mizzou conference situation is resolved. The big question is if the Big XII stays at 10 with Mizzou, or if it goes to 12 with or without Mizzou. There is some thought that it stays at 10 with Mizzou, but goes to 12 if Mizzou leaves. The latter could start the dominoes falling if the additions come from the Big East. BYU is still a Wild Card in this, but I don't think the dominoes fall until the Big East is affected by loss of more schools.

[Cowboy]

I still think the dominoes don't start falling until the Mizzou conference situation is resolved. The big question is if the Big XII stays at 10 with Mizzou, or if it goes to 12 with or without Mizzou. There is some thought that it stays at 10 with Mizzou, but goes to 12 if Mizzou leaves. The latter could start the dominoes falling if the additions come from the Big East. BYU is still a Wild Card in this, but I don't think the dominoes fall until the Big East is affected by loss of more schools.

-latest report is tcu has said it will not go to the beast but instead to the big12

[Bobby Metzinger]

TCU's pending defection to the Big 12 will be its fifth conference switch (SWC > WAC > C-USA > MtnWest > Big East > Big 12) in 16 years.

My bad for not including a link:

Here it is

http://campuscorner.kansascity.com/node/2110

Although watching the Frogs get absolutely manhandled by Southern Methodist last Saturday, you have to start wondering if Patterson can sustain success in Cowtown. If you thought there was some good mutual admiration between Patterson and June Jones, that has gone out the window. I don't think the balance of college football power in DFW has shifted from Ft. Worth to Dallas, but Jones has changed the culture on Mockingbird Lane and has SMU rolling right now and should parlay that success into a better conference than C-USA.

**Breaking** TCU officials will hold a presser at 11:30 CDT today making the formal announcement.

[Bay Area Billiken]

-latest report is tcu has said it will not go to the beast but instead to the big12

Yes. I don't think TCU to the Big XII starts the dominoes falling. But what would is Mizzou leaving and being replaced by existing Big East teams like Louisville and West Virginia, or also even if Mizzou stays, but the Big XII still decides to expand by the additional two (Louisville & West Virginia) from the Big East, in addition to TCU.

There are all kinds of rumors flying and speculation. Yesterday, I even saw Tulane being linked to the Big XII, which would seem to strain reality.

Another key is to watch what happens with Cincinnati. The latest consensus seems to be that Louisville and West Virginia are ahead of Cincinnati for Big XII invites. If Cincinnati is left behind in the Big East, that presumably blocks Xavier and perhaps Dayton from getting in the Big East, as long as both the football and basketball sides of the Big East remain together as one league.

[Cowboy]

Yes. I don't think TCU to the Big XII starts the dominoes falling. But what would is Mizzou leaving and being replaced by existing Big East teams like Louisville and West Virginia, or also even if Mizzou stays, but the Big XII still decides to expand by the additional two (Louisville & West Virginia) from the Big East, in addition to TCU.

There are all kinds of rumors flying and speculation. Yesterday, I even saw Tulane being linked to the Big XII, which would seem to strain reality.

Another key is to watch what happens with Cincinnati. The latest consensus seems to be that Louisville and West Virginia are ahead of Cincinnati for Big XII invites. If Cincinnati is left behind in the Big East, that presumably blocks Xavier and perhaps Dayton from getting in the Big East, as long as both the football and basketball sides of the Big East remain together as one league.

-i would think the beast would offer any program they thought would help their league stay afloat regardless of location (see tcu)