Game Thread - SLU vs Belmont

[dlarry]

It was definitely his eye. Was really hurting him, he could barely stand up straight to walk.

The refs lost control of the game in my opinion, though I'm sure they'll blame it all on Brian Incognito....I mean Conklin.

horrible game at the end by the refs.

Belmont players were flopping around like soccer players.

Conklin's T could of been costly but if the refs would of called the game correctly it would of never came to that.

Mitchell looked pretty dazed being led off the court. At first I thought it was the nose but after seeing him stagger to the locker room I thought possibly a concussion.

On the was home Ramsey said he was poked in the eye.

So I guess an eye poke is probably better news than a concusion or broken nose.

Seeing the Bills strugle with the press at the end shows how much they need him.

[cheeseman]

It was definitely his eye. Was really hurting him, he could barely stand up straight to walk.

The refs lost control of the game in my opinion, though I'm sure they'll blame it all on Brian Incognito....I mean Conklin.

Agreed the refs let the game get out of hand and made some very puzzling calls in the last 6 minutes - they let Belmont hack away and when one of our guys would finally have enough of it and start hacking themselves then they would call a foul on who hacked last. I am not sure how this has happened lately but our game tonight and against SIUC were not just physical but dangerous at times given how the refs would put the whistle away at times.

[Runnin'Billiken]

Kwamain got poked in the eye HARD. He was writhing in pain even after a minute. Didn't look like he could open it hardly at all on his way to the locker room. Nothing else appeared to be hurt, just the eye.

Refs lost complete control of this game. Worst officiating of the year by far. I need more fingers to count just the VERY BAD calls. This is not 5th grade parochial girls intramural recess basketball, this is D1. Step it up!

WR, KM, and BC owned them, but nobody else seemed to want to do very much. Willie still needs more touches in the post. He's better than every player who has guarded him at home.

Free throws: my God we need practice. ABYSMAL!! We will not win any road games shooting like that.

The ridiculous hacking of Kwamain must stop. This is turning into LischInjuriesByThugs2.0. He needs a full time body guard on the court for all the thuggery that goes on against him. Is Tony Twist available?

[DeSmetBilliken]

First of all, let's start with Kwamain's injury. As he was taken off the court, he definitely had his hand on his eye. A few people went running back into the tunnel shortly after Kwamain was taken off the floor. Not sure if they're part of the team medical staff.

I think the big thing here is whether Kwamain got poked in the eye (as in with a finger), or if he got elbowed in the eye. Obviously an elbow is likely to pack a greater amount of force. I don't know much about concussions, but Kwamain was clearly in pain, which makes me think it wasn't a concussion, just because most concussion I see in sporting events on TV leave the individual dazed, not writhing in pain. The thing that scares me with Kwamain is if it was in fact a elbow that caught him, and it had the force to break one of the bones around the eye, which would be a serious injury.

Now to the referees. I've seen some bad officiating in my time, and this one was pretty bad. These guys really liked blowing their whistles, as we were in the double bonus both halves, and Belmont was in the double bonus for the second half, and possibly the first as well. That's around 40 fouls, or a foul a minute. I don't necessarily get the T call on Conklin. From what I saw, it looked like he got tangled up with the Belmont player, and in trying to untangle himself, he caught the Belmont player. As a result, another Belmont player came into the fray and shoved Conklin. My personal opinion was that no T should have been called, but that if they felt the need to call one on Conklin, the Belmont player that retaliated should've gotten one too. Honestly, I think the refs were in some way trying to find something to call on Conklin, because there were a couple of times where one of the zebras pulled him aside to say something to him, when I really don't believe his actions warranted any kind of warning.

[DeSmetBilliken]

The ridiculous hacking of Kwamain must stop. This is turning into LischInjuriesByThugs2.0. He needs a full time body guard on the court for all the thuggery that goes on against him. Is Tony Twist available?

I think Conklin might be his bodyguard.

[Runnin'Billiken]

I think Conklin might be his bodyguard.

Well, apparantly when Conklin gets stabbed in the face and says "Ow" he gets a technical called on him. B-b-b-bullsh*t! Whoever guards Kwa needs to get OREGON ENFORCED EVERY TIME UP THE COURT

[ARon]

I agree the refs had some kind of issue with BC for most of the game.

Before the game I was looking at Belmont's stats, none of their players has averaged more the 3 fouls a game so far this year. Yet tonight it seems like almost every one of them finished the game with 4.

[ARon]

On the postgame show however, RM did say that it was stupid of Conklin to get that T. So maybe he felt it was justified. From where I sit that play was blocked by the backboard so I have no idea.

[Majerus Magic]

Kwamain has a scratched eye. Should be alright, I think? Doesn't take that long to recover I would imagine.

[dlarry]

First of all, let's start with Kwamain's injury. As he was taken off the court, he definitely had his hand on his eye. A few people went running back into the tunnel shortly after Kwamain was taken off the floor. Not sure if they're part of the team medical staff.

I think the big thing here is whether Kwamain got poked in the eye (as in with a finger), or if he got elbowed in the eye. Obviously an elbow is likely to pack a greater amount of force. I don't know much about concussions, but Kwamain was clearly in pain, which makes me think it wasn't a concussion, just because most concussion I see in sporting events on TV leave the individual dazed, not writhing in pain. The thing that scares me with Kwamain is if it was in fact a elbow that caught him, and it had the force to break one of the bones around the eye, which would be a serious injury.

Now to the referees. I've seen some bad officiating in my time, and this one was pretty bad. These guys really liked blowing their whistles, as we were in the double bonus both halves, and Belmont was in the double bonus for the second half, and possibly the first as well. That's around 40 fouls, or a foul a minute. I don't necessarily get the T call on Conklin. From what I saw, it looked like he got tangled up with the Belmont player, and in trying to untangle himself, he caught the Belmont player. As a result, another Belmont player came into the fray and shoved Conklin. My personal opinion was that no T should have been called, but that if they felt the need to call one on Conklin, the Belmont player that retaliated should've gotten one too. Honestly, I think the refs were in some way trying to find something to call on Conklin, because there were a couple of times where one of the zebras pulled him aside to say something to him, when I really don't believe his actions warranted any kind of warning.

I noticed that too.

The first elbowing foul on COnklin was a joke. The guy went to the ground like he had been shot. And Conklin had never even hit him.

Now he has to be careful throwing elbows like he does but that first call was a joke.

After that conklin was pretty mad and voicing his displeasure with the refs.

Thats the first time the refs called him over.

IMO at that point the refs labled him and were going to call anything around him on him.

[Runnin'Billiken]

I noticed that too.

The first elbowing foul on COnklin was a joke. The guy went to the ground like he had been shot. And Conklin had never even hit him.

Now he has to be careful throwing elbows like he does but that first call was a joke.

After that conklin was pretty mad and voicing his displeasure with the refs.

Thats the first time the refs called him over.

IMO at that point the refs labled him and were going to call anything around him on him.

Donaghy! Donaghy! Donaghy!

Is Tim Donaghy in the building?!

[Major Majerus]

Kwamain has a scratched eye. Should be alright, I think? Doesn't take that long to recover I would imagine.

Does he wear contacts? It can take years for a scratched eye to recover, enabling one to wear contacts again. Playing pickup ball with contacts, I once had a guy put a finger in my eye, breaking my contact in two. I went to the ophthalmologist and he told me I couldn't wear contacts for a long time because of the scratch, and possibly never totally recover from it. I DID recover from it, but wore glasses for a year.

[Major Majerus]

On the postgame show however, RM did say that it was stupid of Conklin to get that T. So maybe he felt it was justified. From where I sit that play was blocked by the backboard so I have no idea.

The play was right in front of me. The guy wrapped his hands around Conklin's head and poked him in the eye - clearly an intentional foul - that should have been the call right there; 2 shots and the ball out of bounds. Instead, there was a late whistle, and the guy didn't let go soon enough. Kudos to Conklin for not taking their sh*t.

[cheeseman]

First of all, let's start with Kwamain's injury. As he was taken off the court, he definitely had his hand on his eye. A few people went running back into the tunnel shortly after Kwamain was taken off the floor. Not sure if they're part of the team medical staff.

I think the big thing here is whether Kwamain got poked in the eye (as in with a finger), or if he got elbowed in the eye. Obviously an elbow is likely to pack a greater amount of force. I don't know much about concussions, but Kwamain was clearly in pain, which makes me think it wasn't a concussion, just because most concussion I see in sporting events on TV leave the individual dazed, not writhing in pain. The thing that scares me with Kwamain is if it was in fact a elbow that caught him, and it had the force to break one of the bones around the eye, which would be a serious injury.

Now to the referees. I've seen some bad officiating in my time, and this one was pretty bad. These guys really liked blowing their whistles, as we were in the double bonus both halves, and Belmont was in the double bonus for the second half, and possibly the first as well. That's around 40 fouls, or a foul a minute. I don't necessarily get the T call on Conklin. From what I saw, it looked like he got tangled up with the Belmont player, and in trying to untangle himself, he caught the Belmont player. As a result, another Belmont player came into the fray and shoved Conklin. My personal opinion was that no T should have been called, but that if they felt the need to call one on Conklin, the Belmont player that retaliated should've gotten one too. Honestly, I think the refs were in some way trying to find something to call on Conklin, because there were a couple of times where one of the zebras pulled him aside to say something to him, when I really don't believe his actions warranted any kind of warning.

The problem with blowing your whistle to often and early as they were doing is the kids get frustrated and figure if they are going to get called for a foul then it might as well be for a hard one. Refs need to call fouls when necessary but not get whistle happy on the petty stuff. While they did not do a good job it is still a tough role to fill. I knew we were in trouble with the refs when the one ref from half court over ruled the other ref on a ball that went out of bounds at the baseline where he was standing only a few feet away from. It was off to the races after that.

[billiken_roy]

i disagree with the tone of this tread. i like the fouls being called. if anything they didnt call enough fouls. the biggest problem with last night and the reason it got out of control is they were inconsistent in the calls. if you make a decision to call em, better call them both ways or else frustration sets in and that is when conklin starts swinging elbows and retaliating to fouls.

conklin deserved his technical and he deserved the foul where he didnt make contact. you cant let a player start acting like that on the floor and expect the other team to say "thanks a lot. i will now fold my tent and go home." that kind of action will only ignite more retaliation and physical play. conklin needs to be able to play hard and tough, but not thuggish and even if his actions were just retaliation on his part, he has to remain above that. play hard, play physical but dont turn it into rugby/football.

[troutangler]

The problem with blowing your whistle to often and early as they were doing is the kids get frustrated and figure if they are going to get called for a foul then it might as well be for a hard one. Refs need to call fouls when necessary but not get whistle happy on the petty stuff. While they did not do a good job it is still a tough role to fill. I knew we were in trouble with the refs when the one ref from half court over ruled the other ref on a ball that went out of bounds at the baseline where he was standing only a few feet away from. It was off to the races after that.

This is simply not true. If a game is physical, and the whistle is blown often, players will adjust if they don't want to foul out eventually.

If you clean up the "petty stuff", you can avoid the bigger crap later.

The official at half court may have "overruled" the other official because the ball went out of bounds on his line, or because the official responsible for the line may have not seen it well.

[SShoe]

i disagree with the tone of this tread. i like the fouls being called. if anything they didnt call enough fouls. the biggest problem with last night and the reason it got out of control is they were inconsistent in the calls. if you make a decision to call em, better call them both ways or else frustration sets in and that is when conklin starts swinging elbows and retaliating to fouls.

conklin deserved his technical and he deserved the foul where he didnt make contact. you cant let a player start acting like that on the floor and expect the other team to say "thanks a lot. i will now fold my tent and go home." that kind of action will only ignite more retaliation and physical play. conklin needs to be able to play hard and tough, but not thuggish and even if his actions were just retaliation on his part, he has to remain above that. play hard, play physical but dont turn it into rugby/football.

I generally agree with this statement. Conklin deserved his tech. YOu can't pop a guy with an elbow just because he fouled you.

On the other hand, the "phantom" elbow did not deserve a whistle. If he didn't make contact, where's the foul? That's like saying a hitter should get first base after a pitcher threw at him but missed.

[billiken_roy]

I generally agree with this statement. Conklin deserved his tech. YOu can't pop a guy with an elbow just because he fouled you.

On the other hand, the "phantom" elbow did not deserve a whistle. If he didn't make contact, where's the foul? That's like saying a hitter should get first base after a pitcher threw at him but missed.

i am pretty sure the rules say you cannot swing your elbows excessively.

[SShoe]

i am pretty sure the rules say you cannot swing your elbows excessively.

Roy, if you can point out in the rule book where it says "you cannot swing your elbows excessively," I'll go back on my statement. That being said, I don't think the play was excessive at all. Coaches teach big men to protect the ball by extending their elbows outward on rebounds, etc. What Conklin did last night on that play was no different from what Chris Heinrich did on every one of his rebounds during his stint here.

[BACKHANDtheRICAN]

Kyle is just taking up space on offense. I can't even believe they guard him sometimes.

I knew you would come around jimbo....now tell jackie to pull his head out of his a$%$

[slufanskip]

Roy, if you can point out in the rule book where it says "you cannot swing your elbows excessively," I'll go back on my statement. That being said, I don't think the play was excessive at all. Coaches teach big men to protect the ball by extending their elbows outward on rebounds, etc. What Conklin did last night on that play was no different from what Chris Heinrich did on every one of his rebounds during his stint here.

Extend your elbows outward is ok after a rebound, but to swing them even by turning your shoulders is not.

[cheeseman]

i disagree with the tone of this tread. i like the fouls being called. if anything they didnt call enough fouls. the biggest problem with last night and the reason it got out of control is they were inconsistent in the calls. if you make a decision to call em, better call them both ways or else frustration sets in and that is when conklin starts swinging elbows and retaliating to fouls.

conklin deserved his technical and he deserved the foul where he didnt make contact. you cant let a player start acting like that on the floor and expect the other team to say "thanks a lot. i will now fold my tent and go home." that kind of action will only ignite more retaliation and physical play. conklin needs to be able to play hard and tough, but not thuggish and even if his actions were just retaliation on his part, he has to remain above that. play hard, play physical but dont turn it into rugby/football.

Roy, overall I think that is what people are saying - they started out blowing their whistle on everything then they went silent, then they waited for muggings to take place - inconsistency is a problem and that is exactly what they did.

[cheeseman]

This is simply not true. If a game is physical, and the whistle is blown often, players will adjust if they don't want to foul out eventually.

If you clean up the "petty stuff", you can avoid the bigger crap later.

The official at half court may have "overruled" the other official because the ball went out of bounds on his line, or because the official responsible for the line may have not seen it well.

Had you been at the game you would have seen that the official closest to the play had a good look - when the other ref overruled him the first ref was very confused as why that was happening - he probably felt like he had a good enough look but was not going to get into a pissing contest over it.

If you call every foul early on no matter out ticky tack or not, that can control the game but when you are not consistent with that then the players get frustrated - that was my point.

[SShoe]

I'm not saying using your elbows isn't a foul, I just don't think the term "excessive" applies here. What Conklin did was what many players do, pivot with elbows out.

Again, this completely ignores the fact that he didn't touch the guy, meaning it wasn't a foul. In case there is any confusion, here's the NBA's rules and regulatins on fouls. It's pretty clear that "physical contact" is necessary.

Section D - Fouls

1. A common personal foul is illegal physical contact which occurs with an opponent after the ball has become live.

2. A technical foul is the penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct or violations by team members on the floor or seated on the bench. It may be assessed for illegal contact which occurs with an opponent before the ball becomes live.

3. A double foul is a situation in which two opponents commit personal or technical fouls against each other at approximately the same time.

4. An offensive foul is illegal contact, committed by an offensive player, after the ball is live.

5. A loose ball foul is illegal contact, after the ball is alive, when team control does not exist.

6. An elbow foul is making contact with the elbow in an unsportsmanlike manner whether the ball is dead or alive.

7. A flagrant foul is unnecessary and/or excessive contact committed by a player against an opponent whether the ball is dead or alive as stated in nba basketball rules.

8. A punching foul is a punch by a player which makes contact with an opponent whether the ball is dead or alive.

9. An away-from-the-play foul is illegal contact by the defense in the last two minutes of the game, and/or overtime, which occurs (1) deliberately away from the immediate area of offensive action, and/or (2) prior to the ball being released on a throw-in.

[troutangler]

I'm not saying using your elbows isn't a foul, I just don't think the term "excessive" applies here. What Conklin did was what many players do, pivot with elbows out.

Again, this completely ignores the fact that he didn't touch the guy, meaning it wasn't a foul. In case there is any confusion, here's the NBA's rules and regulatins on fouls. It's pretty clear that "physical contact" is necessary.

Section D - Fouls

1. A common personal foul is illegal physical contact which occurs with an opponent after the ball has become live.

2. A technical foul is the penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct or violations by team members on the floor or seated on the bench. It may be assessed for illegal contact which occurs with an opponent before the ball becomes live.

3. A double foul is a situation in which two opponents commit personal or technical fouls against each other at approximately the same time.

4. An offensive foul is illegal contact, committed by an offensive player, after the ball is live.

5. A loose ball foul is illegal contact, after the ball is alive, when team control does not exist.

6. An elbow foul is making contact with the elbow in an unsportsmanlike manner whether the ball is dead or alive.

7. A flagrant foul is unnecessary and/or excessive contact committed by a player against an opponent whether the ball is dead or alive as stated in nba basketball rules.

8. A punching foul is a punch by a player which makes contact with an opponent whether the ball is dead or alive.

9. An away-from-the-play foul is illegal contact by the defense in the last two minutes of the game, and/or overtime, which occurs (1) deliberately away from the immediate area of offensive action, and/or (2) prior to the ball being released on a throw-in.

NBA rules are waaaaaay different than high school or NCAA rules. NCAA rules are much closer aligned with high school rules than with the NBA. You might as well trash your NBA rules.

Excessively swinging the elbows is a violation in high school, and I'm 99% sure it's the same under NCAA rules. If no contact is made, but a player "clears out" the opponent by extending their elbows, a violation (Not a foul) can be called.