KL Revisited.

[bauman]

Scanning this Board over the past week or so, I came across the following comments about Kevin Lisch. A couple of the posters consistently display their lack of basketball knowledge (while attempting to school us on just how smart they are) while a couple of other posters are long-time program supporters who, I believe, frankly should be ashamed of themselves.

-KL not a Billiken Hall of Famer

-doesn't use his skills to his advantage (huh?)

-KL starts a game choking until the last 2-3 minutes

-KL, nothing but ordinary this year-sans leadership

-Our offense struggles when he has the ball a lot

-is the most overrated player of all time

-highly overrated

-with game on the line KL is 0 for life getting a shot off

-he is a choke artist

-times this year when KL has been our 4th option, behind TL, KM & a big

-KL slowed down TL's progress

-just plain average

-sucks all through the game, then hits 3s when we are down by 20

-is hardly ever a game changer

-people like him because he is a clean-cut WHITE kid (emph. added)

Sorry, call me a homer (or based on the last comment, a racist) but I think most of these comments are either mean-spirited or totally uninformed, which as I said above is surprising for some of the writers.

How do you all feel after the GW game? The Board got very quiet regarding this topic after just one excellent game! I submit that all of the above comments are over-the-line wrong, EXCEPT the fact that he is a clean-cut white kid, who it should be pointed out has graduated in 3 years and will likely finish his 4 yr. MBB career with an MBA.

How can "fans" and I use that word loosely, look at a kid who has given 100% effort every game for 3 1/2 years, sacrificed his body, been the best defender on the team, been the only player you want on the line at the end of a game, been our best 3 pt. shooter throughout his career, been recognized by the experts selecting the preseason All A10 and All A10 Defensive teams as 1st team, finish a career in the top 10 in points and multiple other categories and undergo the above cr@%. Feel free to jump all over me regarding this post, but some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for your comments, I would take a team of warriors like Kevin Lisch. Can you imagine our record this year if KL was not on the team?

If you don't think our W-L records over the past 3 1/2 years would be significantly poorer, then you really need to find another sport to follow---may I suggest soccer, a sport where individual achievements are not so readily apparent. In the case of basketball, black and white numbers make your arguments obviously the reflections of an uninformed observer (not fan) of the sport.

Personally, I look forward to being in attendance the night Kevin is inducted into the Billiken HOF. If you are there that night, I hope you will join in, in giving Kevin his due---a standing ovation.

I just hope that none of the Lisch family reads this Board. However, if they do, let me apologize for the nature of some of the above posts and hope you realize the level of knowledge and common courtesy of those posters does not reflect what I would consider to be the great majority of Billikens.com members.

[Kbrew]

Scanning this Board over the past week or so, I came across the following comments about Kevin Lisch. A couple of the posters consistently display their lack of basketball knowledge (while attempting to school us on just how smart they are) while a couple of other posters are long-time program supporters who, I believe, frankly should be ashamed of themselves.

-KL not a Billiken Hall of Famer

-doesn't use his skills to his advantage (huh?)

-KL starts a game choking until the last 2-3 minutes

-KL, nothing but ordinary this year-sans leadership

-Our offense struggles when he has the ball a lot

-is the most overrated player of all time

-highly overrated

-with game on the line KL is 0 for life getting a shot off

-he is a choke artist

-times this year when KL has been our 4th option, behind TL, KM & a big

-KL slowed down TL's progress

-just plain average

-sucks all through the game, then hits 3s when we are down by 20

-is hardly ever a game changer

-people like him because he is a clean-cut WHITE kid (emph. added)

Sorry, call me a homer (or based on the last comment, a racist) but I think most of these comments are either mean-spirited or totally uninformed, which as I said above is surprising for some of the writers.

How do you all feel after the GW game? The Board got very quiet regarding this topic after just one excellent game! I submit that all of the above comments are over-the-line wrong, EXCEPT the fact that he is a clean-cut white kid, who it should be pointed out has graduated in 3 years and will likely finish his 4 yr. MBB career with an MBA.

How can "fans" and I use that word loosely, look at a kid who has given 100% effort every game for 3 1/2 years, sacrificed his body, been the best defender on the team, been the only player you want on the line at the end of a game, been our best 3 pt. shooter throughout his career, been recognized by the experts selecting the preseason All A10 and All A10 Defensive teams as 1st team, finish a career in the top 10 in points and multiple other categories and undergo the above cr@%. Feel free to jump all over me regarding this post, but some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for your comments, I would take a team of warriors like Kevin Lisch. Can you imagine our record this year if KL was not on the team?

If you don't think our W-L records over the past 3 1/2 years would be significantly poorer, then you really need to find another sport to follow---may I suggest soccer, a sport where individual achievements are not so readily apparent. In the case of basketball, black and white numbers make your arguments obviously the reflections of an uninformed observer (not fan) of the sport.

Personally, I look forward to being in attendance the night Kevin is inducted into the Billiken HOF. If you are there that night, I hope you will join in, in giving Kevin his due---a standing ovation.

I just hope that none of the Lisch family reads this Board. However, if they do, let me apologize for the nature of some of the above posts and hope you realize the level of knowledge and common courtesy of those posters does not reflect what I would consider to be the great majority of Billikens.com members.

Great post. I think the majority of posters/readers of this board have been appalled at the treatment of Kevin. The comment(s) that particularly galled me came from the poster with the comment:

"people like him because he is a clean-cut WHITE kid (emph. added)".

[slufanskip]

Great post. I think the majority of posters/readers of this board have been appalled at the treatment of Kevin. The comment(s) that particularly galled me came from the poster with the comment:

"people like him because he is a clean-cut WHITE kid (emph. added)".

You want to send them to the soccer threads? Why do you dislike me so much

[billiken_roy]

thank you bauman for doing the right thing on behalf of a great student athlete that definitely has been wronged by far too many on this board. it would be one thing if it was comments by one post trolls, but some of the strongest wrongs have come from long time posters that should indeed be ashamed of themselves.

[kshoe]

Scanning this Board over the past week or so, I came across the following comments about Kevin Lisch. A couple of the posters consistently display their lack of basketball knowledge (while attempting to school us on just how smart they are) while a couple of other posters are long-time program supporters who, I believe, frankly should be ashamed of themselves.

-KL not a Billiken Hall of Famer

-doesn't use his skills to his advantage (huh?)

-KL starts a game choking until the last 2-3 minutes

-KL, nothing but ordinary this year-sans leadership

-Our offense struggles when he has the ball a lot

-is the most overrated player of all time

-highly overrated

-with game on the line KL is 0 for life getting a shot off

-he is a choke artist

-times this year when KL has been our 4th option, behind TL, KM & a big

-KL slowed down TL's progress

-just plain average

-sucks all through the game, then hits 3s when we are down by 20

-is hardly ever a game changer

-people like him because he is a clean-cut WHITE kid (emph. added)

Sorry, call me a homer (or based on the last comment, a racist) but I think most of these comments are either mean-spirited or totally uninformed, which as I said above is surprising for some of the writers.

How do you all feel after the GW game? The Board got very quiet regarding this topic after just one excellent game! I submit that all of the above comments are over-the-line wrong, EXCEPT the fact that he is a clean-cut white kid, who it should be pointed out has graduated in 3 years and will likely finish his 4 yr. MBB career with an MBA.

How can "fans" and I use that word loosely, look at a kid who has given 100% effort every game for 3 1/2 years, sacrificed his body, been the best defender on the team, been the only player you want on the line at the end of a game, been our best 3 pt. shooter throughout his career, been recognized by the experts selecting the preseason All A10 and All A10 Defensive teams as 1st team, finish a career in the top 10 in points and multiple other categories and undergo the above cr@%. Feel free to jump all over me regarding this post, but some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for your comments, I would take a team of warriors like Kevin Lisch. Can you imagine our record this year if KL was not on the team?

If you don't think our W-L records over the past 3 1/2 years would be significantly poorer, then you really need to find another sport to follow---may I suggest soccer, a sport where individual achievements are not so readily apparent. In the case of basketball, black and white numbers make your arguments obviously the reflections of an uninformed observer (not fan) of the sport.

Personally, I look forward to being in attendance the night Kevin is inducted into the Billiken HOF. If you are there that night, I hope you will join in, in giving Kevin his due---a standing ovation.

I just hope that none of the Lisch family reads this Board. However, if they do, let me apologize for the nature of some of the above posts and hope you realize the level of knowledge and common courtesy of those posters does not reflect what I would consider to be the great majority of Billikens.com members.

Bauman, since you took the time to go back and get exact quotes but lumped them all together with trolls and long-time posters perhaps you could also add the poster behind each quote.

Then it might be easier for someone to determine if its really just a couple trolls making the outrageous statements and the long term posters making some of the more middle of the road comments like "our offense struggles when he has the ball a lot" which seems to me like a comment that he's more of a spot of shooter rather than a point guard.

If you want people to be held accountable for their statements, make them so, don't just lump everyone that has ever said a bad word about KL in the same group.

[NashvilleBilliken]

This is my first post on this subject, but let's be honest here guys...

Kevin will be a Billiken Hall of Famer

Kevin will go down as one of the top scorers in SLU history

Kevin is a fine young man who has put his heart and soul into the Billikens and represented our school as good as anybody could hope

Kevin is having a ###### season by the standard Kevin has set for himself over the past 3 years

If we need somebody to take a shot, it needs to be Kevin.

If we need somebody to CREATE a shot, it should NOT be Kevin. Anybody who thinks his ability to break his man down is superior to TL or KM is obviously not paying attention

This team would not be where it is today without Kevin Lisch

This team would be in a better position today if Kevin had played the way we all expected his senior season to go

[DoctorB]

I rarely post anymore , but want to give a very hearty endorsement of what Bauman says about Kevin.

What a terrific guy he is! Natural leader, a fantastic asset to this program, a true ambassador to the university. Ragging on Kevin is not only gutless but also incredibly stupid and short-sighted. He is straight out of Hoosiers.

I spent many, many hours watching pick-up games and practices, and let me tell you -- this guy has been a tiger 24/7, truly the vocal leader and the spirit of every single game. What a competitor. I always loved to hear Coach Majerus talk about his dad Rusty (also a very nice guy and terrific athlete): playing special teams in the NFL!! Some of that moxy rubbed off on Kevin: first to practice, last to leave. Back before the new arena, I would pass Pine Gym almost every night, usually long after practice, and I often saw Kevin in there, alone, or with one or 2 others, calmly shooting free throws. Gutsy kid, too-- remember that behind the back lay-up against North Carolina? still gives me goose-bumps--one of my favorite memories in the past 5 years of watching the Bills.

Lay off the brain-dead critiques of KL, guys: this guy is a champion and a great student athlete. Here-here! We are going to miss his presence very much; not to mention those end-of-game jumpers. I hope you read this, KL-- most of the fans will agree with me, not with the marginal whiners.

[tdog]

I rarely post anymore , but want to give a very hearty endorsement of what Bauman says about Kevin.

What a terrific guy he is! Natural leader, a fantastic asset to this program, a true ambassador to the university. Ragging on Kevin is not only gutless but also incredibly stupid and short-sighted. He is straight out of Hoosiers.

I spent many, many hours watching pick-up games and practices, and let me tell you -- this guy has been a tiger 24/7, truly the vocal leader and the spirit of every single game. What a competitor. I always loved to hear Coach Majerus talk about his dad Rusty (also a very nice guy and terrific athlete): playing special teams in the NFL!! Some of that moxy rubbed off on Kevin: first to practice, last to leave. Back before the new arena, I would pass Pine Gym almost every night, usually long after practice, and I often saw Kevin in there, alone, or with one or 2 others, calmly shooting free throws. Gutsy kid, too-- remember that behind the back lay-up against North Carolina? still gives me goose-bumps--one of my favorite memories in the past 5 years of watching the Bills.

Lay off the brain-dead critiques of KL, guys: this guy is a champion and a great student athlete. Here-here! We are going to miss his presence very much; not to mention those end-of-game jumpers. I hope you read this, KL-- most of the fans will agree with me, not with the marginal whiners.

To add my two cents, I have been able to watch Kevin work closely with our freshmen guards from my seats near the SLU bench. When he is not in the game, or during warmups and timeouts, he is always right behind them, giving them advice, consoling them after they make mistakes, and supporting them in every way possible. This is especially true after one of them gets chewed out by the coach; it isn't long afterwards that Kevin is there encouraging them. Besides what he does on the floor, I think his mentoring and leadership is equally valuable. And it will clearly pay dividends in the years ahead.

[davidnark]

There are two distinct things going on here. There are a small number of posters who are providing simplistic, unsubstantiated, and "cheap" shots at Kevin. There are a greater number of posters who have attempted to engage in substantive discussions regarding the strengths, weaknesses, development, and regression of Kevin's game over the last several season. Several posters--most notably Bauman and Roy--have responded to all Lisch discussions and posters with an emotional and attack-the-critic approach. In the case of the small number of troll posters, this is warranted; in the case of the latter, the emotional responses are unjustified.

[bauman]

There are two distinct things going on here. There are a small number of posters who are providing simplistic, substantiated, and "cheap" shots at Kevin. There are a greater number of posters who have attempted to engage in substantive discussions regarding the strengths, weaknesses, development, and regression of Kevin's game over the last several season. Several posters--most notably Bauman and Roy--have responded to all Lisch discussions and posters with an emotional and attack-the-critic approach. In the case of the small number of troll posters, this is warranted; in the case of the latter, the emotional responses are unjustified.

Nark, a couple of points here:

My post is neither emotional nor an attack-the-critic approach. No name calling---no attacks. I was merely trying to right what I perceive as a wrong for one of the finest young men whom I have had the pleasure of watching play Billiken BB over the past 40 some-odd years. In addition to his character, his play is unquestionably going to result in his being elected to the Billiken Hall of Fame no matter what an untrained opinion on this issue might be. It is the tone of the majority of the above cited comments that I find to be inexcusable. I can't recall another player who has ever been vilified in this manner on this Board. Yes we disagree on the ability of players, but not in such a personal manner. I would have hoped that you, Thicks or Steve would have called a halt to this form of criticism before I felt the need to.

Kshoe, I don't believe it is necessary for me to go back and cite who said what. That would start to make my post something that it was not intended to be. I didn't want to get into a back and forth argument with any of the statement authors---I wanted to express my general disappointment regarding certain posts. If you want to attach names to the comments, feel free to do so. However, even the middle of the road (as you term them) posts carry a negative connotation in some instances. e.g. you cited, "the offense struggles when he has the ball a lot" as another way of saying he is a "spot of (sic) shooter" ( assume "of" should be "up"). If you don't see the difference in those statements, so be it. If I intended to say Kevin was a better 2-guard than a PG, then that's what could and should have been said.

Finally, Nashville, I would not classify Kevin's season as "######" based on his prior three years-yes he has struggled with his outside shot in many games, while at the same time being our best hope to drain a 3 when that's what is needed. (see the GW game) In addition, I would not associate the word "######" to Kevin's clutch FT shooting at the end of games. I would think that even the most uninformed poster on this Board would be able to see who the HC wants to have the ball at the end of a close game-again, hard to square this, with the term "######." (Sorry to latch on to this one phrase in your, otherwise excellent post Nashville.)

In summary, in his last season in a Billiken uniform, he leads the team in scoring, # of and % of 3 pt shots made, # of and % of FTs made, is 2nd in Assists, tied for 1st in steals and one of only 3 players with a positive Assist to Turnover ratio. Factor in his acknowledged leadership role and tell me again how we would be better off w/o this "average/non-HOF/choker." Agreed, his shot is not where he, or we, want it to be, but just hang in there because I think it's about to be.

(By the way, Nark, I hope you meant to say "UNsubstantiated" instead of "substantiated." Also, I hope this post meets your test so it is considered "justified."

[billiken_roy]

There are two distinct things going on here. There are a small number of posters who are providing simplistic, substantiated, and "cheap" shots at Kevin. There are a greater number of posters who have attempted to engage in substantive discussions regarding the strengths, weaknesses, development, and regression of Kevin's game over the last several season. Several posters--most notably Bauman and Roy--have responded to all Lisch discussions and posters with an emotional and attack-the-critic approach. In the case of the small number of troll posters, this is warranted; in the case of the latter, the emotional responses are unjustified.

wrong david, i have probably quoted more kevin lisch stats in the last week on this board to justify your totally wrong positions than i have quoted lisch statistics in the last four years combined. your attacks are the ones that have been about isolated observations by yourself (not authorities like rickma or moser or even local sports experts) of certain situational plays throughout a game or two. yet it is amazing to me that if your observations are true, that rickma even let's him play let alone continue to be the main focus on offense. your words make kevin out to be some sort of self centered mistake prone playground bully. when the truth shown by the statistics show other than his shooting percentage, he is the same kevin that has been carrying the billikens for four years. you said he wasnt the player that marque perry was, well other than perry's final season, perry didnt score at the pace kevin has for four years, perry's asst to turnover ratio was worse than kevin's (kevin will likely end up with more assist than perry for his career), lisch will have a far better 3 point percentage, free throws arent even close, if kevin doesnt get another steal the rest of the season he has 10 more steals than perry had his entire billiken career.

the point isnt that perry isnt good, perry was spectacular and i would proudly pin marque's hall of fame pin on his chest if i had the chance. the point is, that kevin lisch is far better than marque perry was as a billiken.

that isnt emtional unjustified jibberish. the above comparison is fact. the only unjustified posts are those that are attacking kevin lisch as though he is the second coming of seku barantine. yeah yeah, you never said that. but the fact you have refused to acknowledge that the career of kevin lisch is hall of fame worthy all at once is disturbing. the fact that now you want to pin any season shortcomings for the team on kevin is just mind boggling.

and dont tell me about four year stats inflating kevins worth. his stats surpass plenty of four year stars that you never attacked like you have lisch in recent posts.

give the young man his due.

[billiken_roy]

one more thing. how many people realize what a drain physically it is to guard the opponents best scorer (many times much bigger and stronger and faster than he), asked to bring the ball down the floor (even with mitchell in the game, if the other team is pressuring, kevin sometimes has to shoulder the full court pressure), be the go to guy for horrible shot opportunities as the shot clock runs down (probably happens five times a game. take five misses a game away from his current stats), asked to be on the floor more minutes than any other player, and then be expected to make every free throw in the last 3 minutes of every game?

snap out of it people.

[kshoe]

Nark, a couple of points here:

My post is neither emotional nor an attack-the-critic approach. No name calling---no attacks. I was merely trying to right what I perceive as a wrong for one of the finest young men whom I have had the pleasure of watching play Billiken BB over the past 40 some-odd years. In addition to his character, his play is unquestionably going to result in his being elected to the Billiken Hall of Fame no matter what an untrained opinion on this issue might be. It is the tone of the majority of the above cited comments that I find to be inexcusable. I can't recall another player who has ever been vilified in this manner on this Board. Yes we disagree on the ability of players, but not in such a personal manner. I would have hoped that you, Thicks or Steve would have called a halt to this form of criticism before I felt the need to.

Kshoe, I don't believe it is necessary for me to go back and cite who said what. That would start to make my post something that it was not intended to be. I didn't want to get into a back and forth argument with any of the statement authors---I wanted to express my general disappointment regarding certain posts. If you want to attach names to the comments, feel free to do so. However, even the middle of the road (as you term them) posts carry a negative connotation in some instances. e.g. you cited, "the offense struggles when he has the ball a lot" as another way of saying he is a "spot of (sic) shooter" ( assume "of" should be "up"). If you don't see the difference in those statements, so be it. If I intended to say Kevin was a better 2-guard than a PG, then that's what could and should have been said.

Finally, Nashville, I would not classify Kevin's season as "######" based on his prior three years-yes he has struggled with his outside shot in many games, while at the same time being our best hope to drain a 3 when that's what is needed. (see the GW game) In addition, I would not associate the word "######" to Kevin's clutch FT shooting at the end of games. I would think that even the most uninformed poster on this Board would be able to see who the HC wants to have the ball at the end of a close game-again, hard to square this, with the term "######." (Sorry to latch on to this one phrase in your, otherwise excellent post Nashville.)

In summary, in his last season in a Billiken uniform, he leads the team in scoring, # of and % of 3 pt shots made, # of and % of FTs made, is 2nd in Assists, tied for 1st in steals and one of only 3 players with a positive Assist to Turnover ratio. Factor in his acknowledged leadership role and tell me again how we would be better off w/o this "average/non-HOF/choker." Agreed, his shot is not where he, or we, want it to be, but just hang in there because I think it's about to be.

(By the way, Nark, I hope you meant to say "UNsubstantiated" instead of "substantiated." Also, I hope this post meets your test so it is considered "justified."

How can you say your original post "is neither emotional nor an attack-the-critic approach. No name calling---no attacks." ???

In your original post you say

- A couple of the posters consistently display their lack of basketball knowledge

- couple of other posters are long-time program supporters who, I believe, frankly should be ashamed of themselves

- How can "fans" and I use that word loosely

- you really need to find another sport to follow---may I suggest soccer

- the level of knowledge and common courtesy of those posters does not reflect what I would consider to be the great majority of Billikens.com members

Those all appear to be insults to me and seem very emotionally charged. Just because you didn't call them out individually doesn't mean you weren't insulting people. Those people that wrote those quotes know who you are speaking of with each of those comments.

[davidnark]

yet it is amazing to me that if your observations are true, that rickma even let's him play let alone continue to be the main focus on offense. your words make kevin out to be some sort of self centered mistake prone playground bully.

There you go again, with an emotional response to my comments. Roy, I have consistently and emphatically always indicated that Kevin should start and play the bulk of the minutes on this team. Never have I ever suggested that he wasn't good a (or even a great) Billiken. Instead, I have focused on subtle observations I have made regarding the apparent drop-off in his play this year. For example, I have pointed out that he doesn't pass the ball well in Majerus's system because he has a tendancy to drop his head and over-dribble, I have pointed out that he may be the third best "creator" offensive option on this team (after TL and KM), I have questioned why he is often getting beat off the dribble this season. These aren't personal attacks; these are legitimate observations and questions. I have never, ever suggested that he isn't a great, hard-working kid who exemplifies everything you want from a student-athlete, and I never would. I do wonder where Kevin ranks in terms of great D1 basketball players. Statistically, he is clearly one of the top Billikens, but why has he been unable to even come close to leading his team to the NCAA tournament. Is this a reflection of the quality of his teammates? The coaching? His role? Where does Kevin rank in terms of the top talent on the top 40 programs? Is he a star at that level or just at the current Billiken level?

[davidnark]

P.S. Maybe I should ask Steve to create a no-critique-of-Kevin-Lisch-rule because apparently Kevin's play isn't subject to the same review and analysis that Tommie Liddell, Bryce Husak, Justin Johnson, Drew Deiner, and tens of other of Billikens have faced over the years. I didn't realize that the play of "clean-cut white kids" wasn't open to criticism on this board.

[billiken_roy]

There you go again, with an emotional response to my comments. Roy, I have consistently and emphatically always indicated that Kevin should start and play the bulk of the minutes on this team. Never have I ever suggested that he wasn't good a (or even a great) Billiken. Instead, I have focused on subtle observations I have made regarding the apparent drop-off in his play this year. For example, I have pointed out that he doesn't pass the ball well in Majerus's system because he has a tendancy to drop his head and over-dribble, I have pointed out that he may be the third best "creator" offensive option on this team (after TL and KM), I have questioned why he is often getting beat off the dribble this season. These aren't personal attacks; these are legitimate observations and questions. I have never, ever suggested that he isn't a great, hard-working kid who exemplifies everything you want from a student-athlete, and I never would. I do wonder where Kevin ranks in terms of great D1 basketball players. Statistically, he is clearly one of the top Billikens, but why has he been unable to even come close to leading his team to the NCAA tournament. Is this a reflection of the quality of his teammates? The coaching? His role? Where does Kevin rank in terms of the top talent on the top 40 programs? Is he a star at that level or just at the current Billiken level?

amazing, that you saw this supposed "drop off" yet rickma, who has obviously never been afraid to tell it like it is, hasnt said a word about it.

as to top 40 program ranks, there are few teams in the country that kevin lisch would not start for and be a main focus imo.

the "drop his head and over dribble" that you love to now tell us about apparently happens in narkville, yet kevin still maintains a better assist to turnover ratio than marque perry and tommie liddell. damn good standards to live up to imo.

as to why he hasnt led the billikens to the ncaa tourney, well if that is the qualification for respect and honor for a billiken star, then there would be a pretty lonely billiken hall of fame.

if what you really want to do is take another run at soderberg just do that and leave kevin's name out of it.

[ACE]

This is my first post on this subject, but let's be honest here guys...

Kevin will be a Billiken Hall of Famer

Kevin will go down as one of the top scorers in SLU history

Kevin is a fine young man who has put his heart and soul into the Billikens and represented our school as good as anybody could hope

Kevin is having a ###### season by the standard Kevin has set for himself over the past 3 years

If we need somebody to take a shot, it needs to be Kevin.

If we need somebody to CREATE a shot, it should NOT be Kevin. Anybody who thinks his ability to break his man down is superior to TL or KM is obviously not paying attention

This team would not be where it is today without Kevin Lisch

This team would be in a better position today if Kevin had played the way we all expected his senior season to go

That sums it up well. Most of the criticism (not the stuff said by a couple of trolls) seemed pretty fair to me. A lot is expected from our senior leader. I suspect he may have been battling some injuries early this year whether it was the back or hand, but maybe last game is a sign that he is starting to snap out of it. Kevin should be open to criticism just like Tommie, Ian, Barry or any other Billiken over the years, so there is no need to get overly sensitive about it. He has been a gamer and he will be missed when he graduates. I expect he will finish his career strong.

[davidnark]

amazing, that you saw this supposed "drop off" yet rickma, who has obviously never been afraid to tell it like it is, hasnt said a word about it.

I will ignore your cheap shots and emotional attacks, but I have heard Majerus--on multiple ocassions--point out that Kevin needs to be smarter and more purposeful with the ball and not just go for the sake of going. He has also been very critical of his seniors play at times this year (and I assume that includes Kevin even if it isn't appropriate on this board). Those comments were clearly consistent with the observations I have made.

[billiken_roy]

I will ignore your cheap shots and emotional attacks, but I have heard Majerus--on multiple ocassions--point out that Kevin needs to be smarter and more purposeful with the ball and not just go for the sake of going. He has also been very critical of his seniors play at times this year (and I assume that includes Kevin even if it isn't appropriate on this board). Those comments were clearly consistent with the observations I have made.

cheap shots and emotional attacks? i guess the "narkville" accent was such? dont see anything else that would be considered such below.

"amazing, that you saw this supposed "drop off" yet rickma, who has obviously never been afraid to tell it like it is, hasnt said a word about it.

as to top 40 program ranks, there are few teams in the country that kevin lisch would not start for and be a main focus imo.

the "drop his head and over dribble" that you love to now tell us about apparently happens in narkville, yet kevin still maintains a better assist to turnover ratio than marque perry and tommie liddell. damn good standards to live up to imo.

as to why he hasnt led the billikens to the ncaa tourney, well if that is the qualification for respect and honor for a billiken star, then there would be a pretty lonely billiken hall of fame.

if what you really want to do is take another run at soderberg just do that and leave kevin's name out of it. "

[courtside]

There are two distinct things going on here. There are a small number of posters who are providing simplistic, unsubstantiated, and "cheap" shots at Kevin. There are a greater number of posters who have attempted to engage in substantive discussions regarding the strengths, weaknesses, development, and regression of Kevin's game over the last several season. Several posters--most notably Bauman and Roy--have responded to all Lisch discussions and posters with an emotional and attack-the-critic approach. In the case of the small number of troll posters, this is warranted; in the case of the latter, the emotional responses are unjustified.

I admittedly have not read any particular thread or threads regarding this topic. But I would have to imagine this would be what I would find if I did.

It's good to point out everything Lisch does well on and off the floor, because it should stand out and be repeated often. If people are trolling, well, that's almost every college hoops board, and the best way to deal with those people is to ignore them. If people are blindly defending objective fair criticism of on the court play, then that is certainly worth debate imo. The idea that certain players are above objective critique, because of their character, and other efforts on and off the floor, is unfortunate and unproductive.

[Majerus Magic]

amazing, that you saw this supposed "drop off" yet rickma, who has obviously never been afraid to tell it like it is, hasnt said a word about it.

as to top 40 program ranks, there are few teams in the country that kevin lisch would not start for and be a main focus imo.

the "drop his head and over dribble" that you love to now tell us about apparently happens in narkville, yet kevin still maintains a better assist to turnover ratio than marque perry and tommie liddell. damn good standards to live up to imo.

as to why he hasnt led the billikens to the ncaa tourney, well if that is the qualification for respect and honor for a billiken star, then there would be a pretty lonely billiken hall of fame.

if what you really want to do is take another run at soderberg just do that and leave kevin's name out of it.

This really is pathetic. If someone udders one criticism about Roy's man crush he gets all emotional.

It's funny that you say "Majerus hasn't said a work about it", in regard's to Kevin's play, but yet you had a ###### fit when he called Tommie and Kevin "just sophomores to me." Make up your mind Roy.

[billiken_roy]

This really is pathetic. If someone udders one criticism about Roy's man crush he gets all emotional.

It's funny that you say "Majerus hasn't said a work about it", in regard's to Kevin's play, but yet you had a ###### fit when he called Tommie and Kevin "just sophomores to me." Make up your mind Roy.

you are way off base. i defend a lot of the players accordingly. for example, back in the drew diener days i defended him and drew a lot of heat for it. same with the rickma cuts last year. or sloan in his early billiken days. etc.

as to my rickma comment, i only pointed out that if davidnark's specific critcism's were warranted, then it is surprising to me that rickma hasnt said any thing to echo such. your "make up your mind" comment makes no sense in that case. i am not saying i want to hear rickma attack kevin, i am merely saying he hasnt on the issues that david brings up as of late.

[davidnark]

your "make up your mind" comment makes no sense in that case. i am not saying i want to hear rickma attack kevin, i am merely saying he hasnt on the issues that david brings up as of late.

Roy, your hate of Majerus is so strong that you brag about your refusal to attend any events at which he speaks or listen to his radio show. If you had taken the time to listen to Majerus speak this season, you would have heard him rave about many of the great things about Kevin that are often highlighted on this board but also comment about Kevin's need to play under more control and use his energy with more purpose and discipline on offense. Of course, it is much easier to just repeat your personal attacks than to address the issue.

[kmbilliken]

There you go again, with an emotional response to my comments. Roy, I have consistently and emphatically always indicated that Kevin should start and play the bulk of the minutes on this team. Never have I ever suggested that he wasn't good a (or even a great) Billiken. Instead, I have focused on subtle observations I have made regarding the apparent drop-off in his play this year. For example, I have pointed out that he doesn't pass the ball well in Majerus's system because he has a tendancy to drop his head and over-dribble, I have pointed out that he may be the third best "creator" offensive option on this team (after TL and KM), I have questioned why he is often getting beat off the dribble this season. These aren't personal attacks; these are legitimate observations and questions. I have never, ever suggested that he isn't a great, hard-working kid who exemplifies everything you want from a student-athlete, and I never would. I do wonder where Kevin ranks in terms of great D1 basketball players. Statistically, he is clearly one of the top Billikens, but why has he been unable to even come close to leading his team to the NCAA tournament. Is this a reflection of the quality of his teammates? The coaching? His role? Where does Kevin rank in terms of the top talent on the top 40 programs? Is he a star at that level or just at the current Billiken level?

We've only had one player capable of carrying a team to the NCAA tournament, Larry Hughes. KL and TL are both exceleent players, but they can't do it by themselves. I think they are of the caliber of Clagget, Highmark, Waldman and Dobbs. That team had four guys to carry the load. KL and TL are only two. What happens this season depends on the Freshmen. TL is having a good year and KL will too. He hasn't forgotten how to play. Once the shot starts to drop consistently this debate will end, but we aren't going anywhere without the Freshmen coming through bigtime.

[brianstl]

Funny that we never get this kind of defense for TLIII on this board when he gets critical comments for his play.

The simple truth is Kevin and Tommie have both been great Billikens. But, that does not make them immune to criticism for their play at times. I just don't get why some people can't understand that. Some of the people complaining about the criticism are the same ones that had no problem taking shots at Ian.