Excitement abounds

[slu72]

From the majority of the posts about the HS game, there seems to be a great deal of excitement about the 7 Billikids. I think the board in the past has had a tendency to judge previous new comers a little too favorably. But don't sense that is the case here. Just looking for comments from those in the know, are we looking at these kids through Billiken Blue glasses, or do you really think they are special in that they are legit D1 players. Understand there's no McD AA's among them, but we didn't expect them to be Derrick Roses or Eric Gordons, just solid players that are going to develop into a dance team in a couple of years.

[redbirdfan]

From the majority of the posts about the HS game, there seems to be a great deal of excitement about the 7 Billikids. I think the board in the past has had a tendency to judge previous new comers a little too favorably. But don't sense that is the case here. Just looking for comments from those in the know, are we looking at these kids through Billiken Blue glasses, or do you really think they are special in that they are legit D1 players. Understand there's no McD AA's among them, but we didn't expect them to be Derrick Roses or Eric Gordons, just solid players that are going to develop into a dance team in a couple of years.

I know Ruben was nominated for McD AA--I cant say about the rest of them.

[Billikan]

From the majority of the posts about the HS game, there seems to be a great deal of excitement about the 7 Billikids. I think the board in the past has had a tendency to judge previous new comers a little too favorably. But don't sense that is the case here. Just looking for comments from those in the know, are we looking at these kids through Billiken Blue glasses, or do you really think they are special in that they are legit D1 players. Understand there's no McD AA's among them, but we didn't expect them to be Derrick Roses or Eric Gordons, just solid players that are going to develop into a dance team in a couple of years.

I think we may be in for a big disappointment if we think we will have a big year this year in wins and losses but I think there is do doubt that these young players collectively have more future potential than any group we have brought in for 30 years. If you combine them with the commits and hopefully the others we will sign--the track record of this staff is interesting in that it seems like every player we get is good now and has an excellent upside for future growth. In spite of what may be viewed as some less than positive quotes from the coach I know he loves this freshman class and he is very optimistic about the future. His recent plea to me is -- please be patient, by the time this group of freshmen are juniors we will fill in with some other excellent players and we will be really good. I can see that he really believes it and I have become a believer as well.

[billikenfan05]

My excitement stems mostly from seeing that we now have another legit 3 point shooter(cotto), an athletic big man(willie), and a point guard who is flashy and looks to be able to score as well(mitchell). I think this year no matter what our record turns out to be, will be fun to watch.

[GoBills]

If you look at who we lost vs. who is coming in, you have to think SLU will at least be a little better and perhaps even significantly better. Mitchell, Cotto, Cassitty and John vs. Polk and Brown. Mitchell will immediately be better than Polk. Cotto gives us a dimension we didn't really have last year, a scoring guard off the bench. Danny Brown really had some strong moments and I know he played some at power forward out of necessitty, but for the purpose of this I am comparing him to Cassitty and John. Maybe those youngsters can match what Brown did. Now to the frontcourt. I just can't help but think Thompson, Conklin and Reed will overall surpass Husak and Meyer. Luke was a real scrapper, but the Bills will be bigger at power forward this year. And with Barry moving from center to pf, the Bills will just match up better. I am well aware that there will be rocky games with these kids and I am not expecting a trip to the NCAA Tourney, but I think there is some well-grounded reasons to feel the Bills will improve on last year. How much, remains to be seen. That's why they play the games. Looking forward to it!

[NH]

If you look at who we lost vs. who is coming in, you have to think SLU will at least be a little better and perhaps even significantly better. Mitchell, Cotto, Cassitty and John vs. Polk and Brown. Mitchell will immediately be better than Polk. Cotto gives us a dimension we didn't really have last year, a scoring guard off the bench. Danny Brown really had some strong moments and I know he played some at power forward out of necessitty, but for the purpose of this I am comparing him to Cassitty and John. Maybe those youngsters can match what Brown did. Now to the frontcourt. I just can't help but think Thompson, Conklin and Reed will overall surpass Husak and Meyer. Luke was a real scrapper, but the Bills will be bigger at power forward this year. And with Barry moving from center to pf, the Bills will just match up better. I am well aware that there will be rocky games with these kids and I am not expecting a trip to the NCAA Tourney, but I think there is some well-grounded reasons to feel the Bills will improve on last year. How much, remains to be seen. That's why they play the games. Looking forward to it!

Thompson is alrady as good as husak was imo, and reed looked better last game then husak ever did. No disrespect to bryce, he improved a lot and was a good defender last year but he never really became a solid center. I think Reed and husak will definately be able to handle the C spot as well as last year. At PF im not so sure. I think Barry and Conklin could match luke but luke turned into a very slid player by his senior year hat could be the one position we downgreade at.

[cheeseman]

Billikan is correct - don't get ahead of yourself. We will struggle to play 500 plus ball just as we did last year. While I saw some real flashes in the Harris Stowe game from the freshmen I also saw weaknesses. It will take most of the year to get any real consistency out of them from game to game that is just how a freshman plays. Next year we should be much more solid.

[Clock_Tower]

Thompson is alrady as good as husak was imo, and reed looked better last game then husak ever did. No disrespect to bryce, he improved a lot and was a good defender last year but he never really became a solid center. I think Reed and husak will definately be able to handle the C spot as well as last year. At PF im not so sure. I think Barry and Conklin could match luke but luke turned into a very slid player by his senior year hat could be the one position we downgreade at.

Are you kidding me?? No one appreciates the effort and gritty performances of LM more than me but when LM, out of necessity, played the 4 against smaller/guard types, LM held his own. When we matched up against teams with a legitimate 4, Donte Christmas (I believe is his name), it was a season high performance against us. We have not had the abililty to stop another team's power forward since the Baniak, Heinrich and Tatum days. Had LM scored more on offense, the argument could be made that it was a wash. But he didn't.

I missed the Harris Stowe game but, by all accounts, it appears that LM has also been replaced in his other leading category: fan favorite of the 11- 13 year old girl crowd who mostly likely will now oogle over Cassity and his apparent good looks.

[GOSLU68]

Thompson is alrady as good as husak was imo, and reed looked better last game then husak ever did. No disrespect to bryce, he improved a lot and was a good defender last year but he never really became a solid center. I think Reed and husak will definately be able to handle the C spot as well as last year. At PF im not so sure. I think Barry and Conklin could match luke but luke turned into a very slid player by his senior year hat could be the one position we downgreade at.

The only kid in warm ups not making 3 pointers was WR-but his free throw shot is so good I hope the opponents think they can push him around and he will get 10 a night from the charity stripe. Husak never seem to make up his mind he was really a center and not a fade away jumper from 18 feet out. BC, BT, and WR all give us options that can only improve BE as a scoring threat. BC and BT played well together and WR played well with TL. All we need now is guards who pass it high to the Bigs.

[NH]

Are you kidding me?? No one appreciates the effort and gritty performances of LM more than me but when LM, out of necessity, played the 4 against smaller/guard types, LM held his own. When we matched up against teams with a legitimate 4, Donte Christmas (I believe is his name), it was a season high performance against us. We have not had the abililty to stop another team's power forward since the Baniak, Heinrich and Tatum days. Had LM scored more on offense, the argument could be made that it was a wash. But he didn't.

I missed the Harris Stowe game but, by all accounts, it appears that LM has also been replaced in his other leading category: fan favorite of the 11- 13 year old girl crowd who mostly likely will now oogle over Cassity and his apparent good looks.

Dionte Christmas is a 2/3 not a four. While I agree Luke did get bburned because of his side he played hard and was very crafty. By his senior year he was a good offensive layer IMO

[Tonka]

Dionte Christmas is a 2/3 not a four. While I agree Luke did get bburned because of his side he played hard and was very crafty. By his senior year he was a good offensive layer IMO

cheese, I realize there is a learning curve ahead of us, but I think if KL and TL stay healthy then we will not struggle to be .500.

When looking at the schedule, seeing some of the freshman play, the excitement of a new arena, I believe we will win 18 or 19 games. In my opinion, it will be a disappointing year if we do not put up that many wins.

[Malibubill]

cheese, I realize there is a learning curve ahead of us, but I think if KL and TL stay healthy then we will not struggle to be .500.

When looking at the schedule, seeing some of the freshman play, the excitement of a new arena, I believe we will win 18 or 19 games. In my opinion, it will be a disappointing year if we do not put up that many wins.

I'm not sure if you really meant what you wrote, but if you did, I don't understand that mentality. The Billikens are talented, but they are young - real young. Anything could happen this year - they could gel and have a great year or they could struggle and barely make .500. But either way the future is bright. A great freshman class, maybe the best in Billiken history, and three reported oral commitments who will only add to the bright future for the team and the program.

So what is to be gained by saying anything less than 18 or 19 wins will be a disappointing year?

For me, it is hard to imagine how anything could be a disappointing year. Sure, if they win 5 games, or 8 games - but that isn't going to happen. Even if they are only a .500 team, or if they are either side of .500 by a couple of games - I can live with anything in light of how bright the future is.

Listen to the coach. Be patient. Let the kids grow up without this type of pressure on them.

I just don't understand why some fans have to draw this type of line in the sand and say if the team doesn't meet their expectations the year is a disappointment. As long as the team is competitive and the freshmen develop, I'll be happy regardless of the record.

It is about building a program, and all signs are RM is doing just what he was hired to do.

I'm happy.

[Archy McNally]

Are you kidding me?? No one appreciates the effort and gritty performances of LM more than me but when LM, out of necessity, played the 4 against smaller/guard types, LM held his own. When we matched up against teams with a legitimate 4, Donte Christmas (I believe is his name), it was a season high performance against us. We have not had the abililty to stop another team's power forward since the Baniak, Heinrich and Tatum days. Had LM scored more on offense, the argument could be made that it was a wash. But he didn't.

I missed the Harris Stowe game but, by all accounts, it appears that LM has also been replaced in his other leading category: fan favorite of the 11- 13 year old girl crowd who mostly likely will now oogle over Cassity and his apparent good looks.

Did you watch the game? Christmas killed us, but it was nothing but 3's coming from a 6-4 shooting guard. No guard we put on him could stop him. Probably the best player in the A-10 this year.

[Tonka]

I'm not sure if you really meant what you wrote, but if you did, I don't understand that mentality. The Billikens are talented, but they are young - real young. Anything could happen this year - they could gel and have a great year or they could struggle and barely make .500. But either way the future is bright. A great freshman class, maybe the best in Billiken history, and three reported oral commitments who will only add to the bright future for the team and the program.

So what is to be gained by saying anything less than 18 or 19 wins will be a disappointing year?

For me, it is hard to imagine how anything could be a disappointing year. Sure, if they win 5 games, or 8 games - but that isn't going to happen. Even if they are only a .500 team, or if they are either side of .500 by a couple of games - I can live with anything in light of how bright the future is.

Listen to the coach. Be patient. Let the kids grow up without this type of pressure on them.

I just don't understand why some fans have to draw this type of line in the sand and say if the team doesn't meet their expectations the year is a disappointment. As long as the team is competitive and the freshmen develop, I'll be happy regardless of the record.

It is about building a program, and all signs are RM is doing just what he was hired to do.

I'm happy.

Malibubill - so I guess you have a hang up with the word "disappointment"? Sorry, I feel disappointment when we lose even one game. Do I expect to lose games? I sure do, but I still get disappointed. Do I get angry? No. Do I bash the team? No. Do I go home and kick the dog? No. Do I stop coming to games? No.

If you feel having fans get disappointed from losses puts too much pressure on these kids, then I question how highly you think of these kids. I believe they are all disappointed every time they lose a game. Does that mean they have too high of expectations? No, it means they are competitors and they believe in themselves.

While I think too high of expectations is bad, I also believe too low of expectations is as well. I will admit I am a perpetual optimist when it comes the Billikens as I always think good things even when the odds are stacked against them. TL and KL are one of the best 1-2 punches in SLU history. I realize you need 5 to compete but with their veteran leadership, a talented bunch of freshman, a future hall of fame coach and the schedule this year - I do believe we will 18 or 19 games and thus will be disappointed if we do not.

[slu72]

Malibubill - so I guess you have a hang up with the word "disappointment"? Sorry, I feel disappointment when we lose even one game. Do I expect to lose games? I sure do, but I still get disappointed. Do I get angry? No. Do I bash the team? No. Do I go home and kick the dog? No. Do I stop coming to games? No.

If you feel having fans get disappointed from losses puts too much pressure on these kids, then I question how highly you think of these kids. I believe they are all disappointed every time they lose a game. Does that mean they have too high of expectations? No, it means they are competitors and they believe in themselves.

While I think too high of expectations is bad, I also believe too low of expectations is as well. I will admit I am a perpetual optimist when it comes the Billikens as I always think good things even when the odds are stacked against them. TL and KL are one of the best 1-2 punches in SLU history. I realize you need 5 to compete but with their veteran leadership, a talented bunch of freshman, a future hall of fame coach and the schedule this year - I do believe we will 18 or 19 games and thus will be disappointed if we do not.

Tonka, I share a lot of your feelings about the Bills, especially not kicking the dog for if I did my wife would kick me. That said, I've gone into many a season with high expectations only to be disappointed in the end. Two come to mind. The 2000-01 season as I thought for sure we'd make the dance with that team. And IV's last year w/ Brad. Now last season I didn't expect much so no disappointment. This season I'm hopeful TL and KL will somehow find a way to carry this group to some w's while they get a better handle on D1 ball. I think in terms of Best, most likely, and worst cases. Best would be 18-19 w's (w the bulk of the W's coming toward the end of the season). Most likely is around 14-16 w's ( win some we didn't think possible and vice versa for the losses). Worst case would be in the 9-10 w range. I'd love to see us surprise a lot of folks especially for TL and KL's sake. It's a sin they haven't experienced an NCAA tourney. But this is a very young squad and there will be many bumps in the road. I'd be satisfied with the most likely case playing out as I think this would mean they are developing as hoped. I'd be estatic over 18-19 w's as this would really raise expectations for next year, assuming they played a major role in achieving that many w's and it wasn't all TL and KL's doing. The worst case would be a real bummer. In order for that to occur it would most likely be the result of an injury to KL or TL , the Billikids aren't getting it or maybe they're not as good as advertised. This last scenario of course has to be judged on how competitive they are playing in the A-10. If they're losing a bunch of 1-5 point games you'd have to take that into consideration as compared to getting blown out every night. It ought to be fun seeing how it all unfolds.

[Malibubill]

Malibubill - so I guess you have a hang up with the word "disappointment"? Sorry, I feel disappointment when we lose even one game. Do I expect to lose games? I sure do, but I still get disappointed. Do I get angry? No. Do I bash the team? No. Do I go home and kick the dog? No. Do I stop coming to games? No.

If you feel having fans get disappointed from losses puts too much pressure on these kids, then I question how highly you think of these kids. I believe they are all disappointed every time they lose a game. Does that mean they have too high of expectations? No, it means they are competitors and they believe in themselves.

While I think too high of expectations is bad, I also believe too low of expectations is as well. I will admit I am a perpetual optimist when it comes the Billikens as I always think good things even when the odds are stacked against them. TL and KL are one of the best 1-2 punches in SLU history. I realize you need 5 to compete but with their veteran leadership, a talented bunch of freshman, a future hall of fame coach and the schedule this year - I do believe we will 18 or 19 games and thus will be disappointed if we do not.

Tonka,

I don't have a problem with the word disappointment, I'm just still trying to figure out what you mean by it. Apparently you feel disappointment when we lose even one game. While I'm unhappy when we lose a game, I may or may not be disappointed - it depends on whether I thought we should have won it or not and how we played. If we played UNC this year, I would expect us to lose. I would still be unhappy when we lost, but if we gave them a good game, I would not be disappointed in the team. So maybe we are using the word "disappointment" differently. Moreover, if you feel disappointed after every game we lose, what is the point you are trying to make by saying that you will be "disappointed" if we do not win 18 or 19 games? Why did you pick that number to draw your line in the sand? I think the only reasonable inference is that you will think that this team "under-performed;" that they had a "bad" year; that they were, to some degree, a failure. I disagree with that assertion - and with you making that assertion - for two reasons.

First, I assume you are not a graduate of SLU because you apparently do not understand the Jesuit philosophy. Life is about so much more than just wins and loses. To say that you will be disappointed in this team if they do not win 18 or 19 games fails to take into consideration who they are as individuals, as students, on and off the court. It fails to take into consideration the history of the program and the direction of the program. While the number of wins and losses is an important variable in assessing a program, a team, and its performance, to base one's assessment solely on that variable is inconsistent with the Jesuit philosophy.

Second, even assuming you were talking only about the on-court team performance, I prefer to adopt RM's approach to the team. He has gone out of his way to remind people that while this team is talented, it is young. He has gone out of his way to try to manage people's expectations by downplaying them. Other respected posters on this board have embraced this philosophy and approach and preached patience and understanding (Billikan; and I think even Nate to mention just a few). This is a future HOF coach who specializes in developing 'diamond in the rough' talent and turning them into over-achievers. He knows how to motivate kids - when to push them, and when to back off. He knows that as freshman trying to adjust to college life, to D-1 basketball, and to his particular system, these kids are under a lot of pressure. Even if privately he would be "disappointed" in this team if they did not win 18 or 19 games he has gone out of his way not to say that and never would publicly. So why would you?

I repeat, I just don't understand some fans - but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Clock_Tower]

Did you watch the game? Christmas killed us, but it was nothing but 3's coming from a 6-4 shooting guard. No guard we put on him could stop him. Probably the best player in the A-10 this year.

I did watch the game but obviously have some of the A10 teams and players mixed up. I could go back and figure which power forward guy/guys I was really thinking about but what's the purpose?? To prove a favorite player of mine couldn't stop certain power forwards?? Because of horrible recruiting, and lack thereof, LM - through no fault of his own - was obligated to play the 4 each year. This year, we finally will have a true power forward (height & skill albeit young and inexperienced) at the 4.

NH. Again, not intending to rip on one of my favorite players, but while LM was "crafty" and played "hard", IMO he was not a "good offensive player" (relegated to playing the 4). Solid and/or steady role player? Sure. Good ofensive player, no way.

A simple look at last year's stats show that he played 31.3 mintues/game (3rd on the team only to TL and KL) and yet he scored only an average of 8.4 points per game. Factoring in his playing time, he scored only 1.4 more points than Danny Brown (7 ppg) despite his extra 11 minutes per game, 2.4 more points than BE (6 ppg) despite an extra 11 minutes and only 2.9 more points than BH (also despite the extra 13 minutes). Also, despite leading the team in rebounds with 5.4 per game, I would suggest that this number is not good for a senior power forward and that almost none of these (despite playing hard and being crafty) were on the offensive end. IMO, good offensive players should at least score in double figures and good offensive power forward should be able to get more than 5 rebounds per game - and certainly a few offensive rebounds per game. It's not like LM got hacked each time he got the ball on the offensive end since he only attempted 70 free throws per game.

What am I missing here? How low of expectations must we have simply because our players are freshmen? Why not just say that we will lose every game so that if we win a few, that will be more than our expectations and this season will then be a success.

Will our freshman be as good as Michigan's Fab Five? Of course not. Will we make some mistakes, of course. But if they aren't as good or better than DP, BH, DB and his 1 1/2 legs and 6'4" LM, then this season will be a bust. Let's not forget that ALOT of mistakes were made last year by DP (despite his experience) and that BH and DB each had very little experience of their own and that BE had none.

[Tonka]

Tonka,

I don't have a problem with the word disappointment, I'm just still trying to figure out what you mean by it. Apparently you feel disappointment when we lose even one game. While I'm unhappy when we lose a game, I may or may not be disappointed - it depends on whether I thought we should have won it or not and how we played. If we played UNC this year, I would expect us to lose. I would still be unhappy when we lost, but if we gave them a good game, I would not be disappointed in the team. So maybe we are using the word "disappointment" differently. Moreover, if you feel disappointed after every game we lose, what is the point you are trying to make by saying that you will be "disappointed" if we do not win 18 or 19 games? Why did you pick that number to draw your line in the sand? I think the only reasonable inference is that you will think that this team "under-performed;" that they had a "bad" year; that they were, to some degree, a failure. I disagree with that assertion - and with you making that assertion - for two reasons.

First, I assume you are not a graduate of SLU because you apparently do not understand the Jesuit philosophy. Life is about so much more than just wins and loses. To say that you will be disappointed in this team if they do not win 18 or 19 games fails to take into consideration who they are as individuals, as students, on and off the court. It fails to take into consideration the history of the program and the direction of the program. While the number of wins and losses is an important variable in assessing a program, a team, and its performance, to base one's assessment solely on that variable is inconsistent with the Jesuit philosophy.

Second, even assuming you were talking only about the on-court team performance, I prefer to adopt RM's approach to the team. He has gone out of his way to remind people that while this team is talented, it is young. He has gone out of his way to try to manage people's expectations by downplaying them. Other respected posters on this board have embraced this philosophy and approach and preached patience and understanding (Billikan; and I think even Nate to mention just a few). This is a future HOF coach who specializes in developing 'diamond in the rough' talent and turning them into over-achievers. He knows how to motivate kids - when to push them, and when to back off. He knows that as freshman trying to adjust to college life, to D-1 basketball, and to his particular system, these kids are under a lot of pressure. Even if privately he would be "disappointed" in this team if they did not win 18 or 19 games he has gone out of his way not to say that and never would publicly. So why would you?

I repeat, I just don't understand some fans - but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Malibubill,

We will definitely have to disagree on this one as I think a little bit of semantics are involved here. Apparently "disappointed" is coming off stronger than it should. That's okay though.

My confidence in this team is high. 20 wins used to be the bar that people looked at for having a good season. Now days, that bar has been raised and it is more like 23 - 24 wins. 17 wins would put us 6 - 7 wins under that mark and and in many analysts eyes would be a lackluster season considering the schedule. Now, as a loyal fan and understanding where this program has been and where it is headed, it would be easy to measure this year by development of players alone - but based on the small amount I have seen and from talking to people who know a good amount about these freshman, I stand by the 18 - 19 wins I believe this team is capable of. If you ask me that in a few weeks, I may change my thinking.

And, I am a graduate of SLU and probably have more connections to SLU and the Jesuit philosphy than 98% of all fans. Although, not sure that completely matters when defining a fan.

[slu72]

Will our freshman be as good as Michigan's Fab Five? Of course not. Will we make some mistakes, of course. But if they aren't as good or better than DP, BH, DB and his 1 1/2 legs and 6'4" LM, then this season will be a bust. Let's not forget that ALOT of mistakes were made last year by DP (despite his experience) and that BH and DB each had very little experience of their own and that BE had none.

Clock, I'll bet if RM could change one thing from last year he'd have fitted DB with a medical redshirt. If a healthy DB was playing with this group, I'd be upping my expectations and laying down a hundy on us making at least the NIT, with a decent shot at the NCAA. DB came on awfully strong last year even w/ one and a half leg. Not to slam UB (honest) but he shortchanged DB as far as I'm concerned. The kid always had a scorer mentatlity but for the most part UB's quick hook with him gave him a serious case of the jitters, which resulted in his penchant for mucho TO's and bad shots. It seemed whenever he got serious minutes and wasn't looking over his shoulder DB played well. As for DP and BH, if these new guys aren't an upgrade over them, we're in big doo doo. Can't knock LM. I hope these guys have half his heart and smarts.

[NH]

I did watch the game but obviously have some of the A10 teams and players mixed up. I could go back and figure which power forward guy/guys I was really thinking about but what's the purpose?? To prove a favorite player of mine couldn't stop certain power forwards?? Because of horrible recruiting, and lack thereof, LM - through no fault of his own - was obligated to play the 4 each year. This year, we finally will have a true power forward (height & skill albeit young and inexperienced) at the 4.

NH. Again, not intending to rip on one of my favorite players, but while LM was "crafty" and played "hard", IMO he was not a "good offensive player" (relegated to playing the 4). Solid and/or steady role player? Sure. Good ofensive player, no way.

A simple look at last year's stats show that he played 31.3 mintues/game (3rd on the team only to TL and KL) and yet he scored only an average of 8.4 points per game. Factoring in his playing time, he scored only 1.4 more points than Danny Brown (7 ppg) despite his extra 11 minutes per game, 2.4 more points than BE (6 ppg) despite an extra 11 minutes and only 2.9 more points than BH (also despite the extra 13 minutes). Also, despite leading the team in rebounds with 5.4 per game, I would suggest that this number is not good for a senior power forward and that almost none of these (despite playing hard and being crafty) were on the offensive end. IMO, good offensive players should at least score in double figures and good offensive power forward should be able to get more than 5 rebounds per game - and certainly a few offensive rebounds per game. It's not like LM got hacked each time he got the ball on the offensive end since he only attempted 70 free throws per game.

What am I missing here? How low of expectations must we have simply because our players are freshmen? Why not just say that we will lose every game so that if we win a few, that will be more than our expectations and this season will then be a success.

Will our freshman be as good as Michigan's Fab Five? Of course not. Will we make some mistakes, of course. But if they aren't as good or better than DP, BH, DB and his 1 1/2 legs and 6'4" LM, then this season will be a bust. Let's not forget that ALOT of mistakes were made last year by DP (despite his experience) and that BH and DB each had very little experience of their own and that BE had none.

I dont think we should have low expectations., In the predictions thread I think we should win 18 or 19 games. Also If you read my first post I thought I made it clear that I think we have improved over last year but, I still think PF was the one position we downgraded at. Luke was a great free throw shooter, our leading rebounder. He had a good jump shot and by his senior season he was a decent offesive player. By the end of the year we may be better at PF than last year but I think Luke will really be missed. That said, I think by his senior year Conklin will be jut as good a player as Luke was and probably better because of size.

[3star_recruit]

If .500 is a reasonable record to expect when we're starting three seniors then using the same logic we'll finish a few games below .500 when we lose 60% of our scoring and they're replaced by three sophomores. Yet the prevailing wisdom on this board is that expectations for next year should be ratcheted up dramatically. That seems backward to me.

SIU's starting lineup is even younger than ours, they lost more production than we did, they don't have any proven scorers outside of Mullins and yet they're projected as a top 60 team. We should be a top 100 team, minimum.

The only way I see a .500 record with our schedule is if ALL of the freshmen struggle. I'm not saying that can't happen but expecting that many players handpicked by RM to flounder is incredibly pessimistic.

[cheeseman]

Having high expectations and being pessimistic are not an either. What I mean by this is that I hope we excel and win many games but to expect that this team will do that is different then hoping. RM has told us that we will be a good team sometime this year he just does not know if it will be in January, February or March. He has high hopes for the team and the new players but he is simply being realistic. If this team comes out of the first part of their schedule 2 and 8 then it will be a real struggle to be 500. Now they could lose those games by one or two points and we would say that they are playing well but their record would say something else. I know the schedule looks weak but our schedule the third year that Brad was here was not that tough at the beginning but we painfully found out that the team was scoring challenged and eventually their defense suffered as the players got more and more defeated. I am not saying we will be 2 -8 but I have been surprised in life before.

[Cowboy]

Clock, I'll bet if RM could change one thing from last year he'd have fitted DB with a medical redshirt. If a healthy DB was playing with this group, I'd be upping my expectations and laying down a hundy on us making at least the NIT, with a decent shot at the NCAA. DB came on awfully strong last year even w/ one and a half leg. Not to slam UB (honest) but he shortchanged DB as far as I'm concerned. The kid always had a scorer mentatlity but for the most part UB's quick hook with him gave him a serious case of the jitters, which resulted in his penchant for mucho TO's and bad shots. It seemed whenever he got serious minutes and wasn't looking over his shoulder DB played well. As for DP and BH, if these new guys aren't an upgrade over them, we're in big doo doo. Can't knock LM. I hope these guys have half his heart and smarts.

-i guess it is a sharing of the credit on danny brown between him and the staff as, to use rick's words, danny was a turnover waiting to happen, and then the quality of play he exhibited last year was quite a transformation, or maybe danny just got it, who knows

-it could be this kind of change that makes some think we could be better than what some other fans think, but preseason debate, heck debate, is part of being a fan

-i hope we are good from the start, the rams suck and the blues don't seem to be going anywhere too fast so there is a nice opportunity to grab some fans and i think if we get them in the bldg they will be wow'd and come back

[3star_recruit]

I know the schedule looks weak but our schedule the third year that Brad was here was not that tough at the beginning but we painfully found out that the team was scoring challenged

Obviously anything can happen but I'm more interested in what is likely to happen. It's not like we're questioning across the board where the scoring is going to come from, 40 ppg of our scoring is already here. So the question is, what is more likely: that 6 other players won't be able to generate 25 ppg or that they will?

[davidnark]

2008-2009 SCHEDULE

WIN 11/14/08 vs. Missouri-St. Louis Chaifetz Arena 7:00 p.m. CT

WIN 11/19/08 vs. Kent State Chaifetz Arena 7:00 p.m. CT

LOSS 11/22/08 vs. Boston College Chaifetz Arena 1:00 p.m. CT

LOSS 11/25/08 at Nebraska Lincoln, Neb. 7:00 p.m. CT

WIN 11/29/08 at Detroit Mercy Detroit, Mich. 1:00 p.m. CT

LOSS 12/02/08 at Southern Illinois Carbondale, Ill. 7:00 p.m. CT

WIN 12/06/08 vs. Savannah State Chaifetz Arena 7:00 p.m. CT

WIN 12/13/08 vs. Samford Chaifetz Arena 4:00 p.m. CT

WIN 12/17/08 vs. USC Upstate Chaifetz Arena 7:00 p.m. CT

WIN 12/19/08 vs. Liberty Chaifetz Arena 7:00 p.m. CT

WIN 12/22/08 vs. DePaul Las Vegas, Nev. 7:00 p.m. CT

LOSS 12/23/08 Creighton or Fresno State Las Vegas, Nev. 6:30 p.m./9:00 p.m. CT

WIN 12/30/08 vs. UMBC Chaifetz Arena 8:00 p.m. CT

WIN 01/02/09 vs. North Carolina A&T Chaifetz Arena 7:00 p.m. CT

LOSS 01/08/09 at Xavier * Cincinnati, Ohio 7:00 p.m. CT

LOSS 01/14/09 vs. Massachusetts * Chaifetz Arena 7:00 p.m. CT

WIN 01/17/09 vs. George Washington * Chaifetz Arena TBA

LOSS 01/22/09 at Temple * Philadelphia, Pa. 7:00 p.m. CT

WIN 01/25/09 vs. Richmond * Chaifetz Arena 2:00 p.m. CT

LOSS 01/29/09 at Dayton * Dayton, Ohio 7:00 p.m. CT

WIN 01/31/09 at Fordham * Bronx, N.Y. 6:00 p.m. CT

WIN 02/04/09 vs. Duquesne * Chaifetz Arena TBA

WIN 02/08/09 at Richmond * Richmond, Va. 1:00 p.m. CT

WIN 02/11/09 vs. Charlotte * Chaifetz Arena 7:00 p.m. CT

LOSS 02/14/09 at Rhode Island * Kingston, R.I. 1:00 p.m. CT

WIN 02/18/09 vs. Saint Joseph's * Chaifetz Arena 9:00 p.m. CT

WIN 02/21/09 vs. Dayton * Chaifetz Arena TBA

WIN 02/25/09 at St. Bonaventure * St. Bonaventure, N.Y. 6:00 p.m. CT

LOSS 03/04/09 at Duquesne * Pittsburgh, Pa. 6:00 p.m. CT

WIN 03/07/09 vs. La Salle * Chaifetz Arena 7:00 p.m. CT

This would be a 20-10 regular season record, and didn't include a single "stretch" win. I don't think 20+ wins is an unreasonable expectation given this schedule.