Question about open scholies

[kshoe]

i don't know where you and roy get your info. maybe he was homesick, but i recall sodie specifically saying at a billiken club meeting that he planned to talk to seyfert and didn't see a future here for him. several of us left that meeting under the impression that he planned to run seyfert off and, sure enough, the guy was gone soon afterwards. i don't believe the statement that he lived with his recruiting decisions in light of what he said about seyfert. i think the reason he didn't run more players off was simply because he didn't have the skills to recruit any replacements.

I remember that meeting very specifically but had a different take. Sodie said that midway through Seyfert's freshman year he thought he would need to tell JS that he wasn't good enough but in the 2nd half of the season he showed enough to convince BS that he belonged. Hence he did not want him to leave.

This whole thread is nothing but speculation, but anybody that believes Brad was too great of a guy to ever run off a player is just burying his head in the sand. The reason JJ and Bryce were never run off is he truly thought they could provide for him down the road. As Majerus is undoubtedly a better evaluator of talent than BS, even if a JJ caliber player is brought in I doubt RM will be fooled to keep him on scholly for 5 years. Lastly, Brad never had any reason to run anyone off since we never filled all our schollys anyway so it made no difference.

[Quality Is Job 1]

that may have been reported, but i was at a billiken club meeting when soderberg specifically stated that he planned to speak with seyfert about his future with the bills because he didn't see him fitting in. not much different than what majerus is allegedly doing. who reported that he came to sodie wanting to leave?

I was at that Billiken Club meeting, and Soderberg was relating a conversation he had with Romar while he was the assistant. He said that he asked Romar about talking to Seyfert, but Romar said no. After that, I'm pretty sure Soderberg didn't feel he had enough frontcourt depth to ask Seyfert to leave.

I'm not saying this has anything to do with the speculation that Majerus has approached four (unnamed) players about the possibility of their not being back. I'm just correcting what I feel is incorrect.

[jgcurtin]

skip if all of the players had no contributorial attributes, then you are right. if you are like me and see the size and athleticism of mitchell and relphorde sitting and believe that surely they have value immediately, then their future chances playing time slim to none is baffling. i think that is a big part of my head shaking.

and since we dont get to see them in games but a minute here or there where they never are in the flow and never with the good squad and never get to see them practice, i cant understand how others are also not wondering what the hell?

but again, the answer that makes sense after last night is that majerus is playing the numbers. he needs lot's of bigs to run through the system next year and not as many guards. so to make that happen he has to bump the more questionable of his guard pool.

again, when i say ethical, i am not insinuating anything rulewise. i just think that it is unfortunate that kids that are athletes that havent done anything wrong but be in the wrong place at the wrong time are going to be sacrificed. maybe i am too soft hearted but if the solution is this is a more gradual changeover than 8 or 9 new players next year at the expense of 4 existing players that are good kids, then so be it.

as to not knowing what is being said, the playing time we are seeing says all we need to know considering the team makeup now.

I also support honoring commitments that we make to student athletes, howevere if overhauling the system puts in a new staff and approach to elevate the program to the next level, and the pine players who are good athletes don't fit the system, inform them that they their talents may be better used at another school with a different approach. Also, I don't think it's just athleticism that RM is looking at, eg, LM. I think toughness is a characteristic he seeks. From a fan's perspective, I'd like to see these athletes in another system where they'd fit and maybe even thrive, and let our team get to the next level sooner than later -- 2/3 years vs 5/6 years. I don't want to see these kids get tossed under the bus either, but IMO, they came here to play, not spectate, and that's more likely to happen in another system. If that choice were presented to me, I'd take it.

[mcglotherirvin]

well, i apologize if my recollection is not 100% clear. maybe he was relaying a conversation he had with romar and did not in the end feel he had the depth to ask him to leave. i don't recall. in either case, wasn't he essentially saying he was not against running a player off, which is what some on here would lead you to believe it. if he had the horses lined up to "run a player off" he would have. he just couldn't recruti.

I was at that Billiken Club meeting, and Soderberg was relating a conversation he had with Romar while he was the assistant. He said that he asked Romar about talking to Seyfert, but Romar said no. After that, I'm pretty sure Soderberg didn't feel he had enough frontcourt depth to ask Seyfert to leave.

I'm not saying this has anything to do with the speculation that Majerus has approached four (unnamed) players about the possibility of their not being back. I'm just correcting what I feel is incorrect.

[davidnark]

in my case, i just find it hard to believe that mitchell and relphorde considering their considerable athleticism and size for their positions cant help a team that is in dire need of depth. thus, a big part of my disappointment with "getting the most out of the players".

Roy, what have you seen out of Relphorde that makes you think he is athletic? I was expecting him to be much quicker and a better leaper than he appears to be. Also, considering Mitchell's skills are best suited to play the forward position, I wouldn't consider him to have good size for his position.

Outside of Liddell, Lisch, Izik, and Ian (all of whom committed within a year or so of Brad's initial hire), I have found nearly all of Soderberg's recruits--including the last two--to be disappointing. Luke Meyer wouldn't be disappointing if he was brought in to be a role player, but it is disappointing that he has been the primary option at power forward for the last three years.

[slu72]

Roy, what have you seen out of Relphorde that makes you think he is athletic? I was expecting him to be much quicker and a better leaper than he appears to be. Also, considering Mitchell's skills are best suited to play the forward position, I wouldn't consider him to have good size for his position.

Outside of Liddell, Lisch, Izik, and Ian (all of whom committed within a year or so of Brad's initial hire), I have found nearly all of Soderberg's recruits--including the last two--to be disappointing. Luke Meyer wouldn't be disappointing if he was brought in to be a role player, but it is disappointing that he has been the primary option at power forward for the last three years.

Can't call LM any kind of disappointment, David. Kid gives it his all every game and plays out of position. That said, on a team with top tier talent, LM would likely be a 7 or 8 man. This whole thing about UB running off talent is moot. He never had enough players with enough skills to run anyone off. We should really table this discussion as it falls into the "gossip" category right now. But, if the program is going to take the next step forward, I can't see why any fan would have problems with the HC telling kids he knows aren't going to fit in to seek a better fit away from SLU.

[MusicCityBilliken]

Can't call LM any kind of disappointment, David. Kid gives it his all every game and plays out of position. That said, on a team with top tier talent, LM would likely be a 7 or 8 man. This whole thing about UB running off talent is moot. He never had enough players with enough skills to run anyone off. We should really table this discussion as it falls into the "gossip" category right now. But, if the program is going to take the next step forward, I can't see why any fan would have problems with the HC telling kids he knows aren't going to fit in to seek a better fit away from SLU.

I have to agree with 72, Brad never had the luxury of running off players. Recall November classes with no recruits and then filling them in the spring with anyone (Horrace and Obi).

[Pistol]

No seniors? I thought that team had Marque Perry. 1st team all CUSA guard.

Also BS had Fisher and Sloan. Two players RM would have loved.

There were no seniors during the 2001-2002 season. That was Romar's last season. This is a fact and you can look it up if you don't remember that far back. I was simply using that to frame the makeup of the team Brad inherited. His first season as HC would have been the senior year for Perry, Diener, Brown, and Braun. That core, along with Sloan and Fisher, remained but a lot of the supporting cast was shuffled in one season. Fisher got an extra year of eligibility back via the legal system, and broke SLU's all-time assist record. Sloan was a senior that year (2003-2004) as well. RM definitely would have loved these guys- both hard working, good leaders, great guys, and underrated in terms of their contributions.

[Pistol]

i don't know where you and roy get your info. maybe he was homesick, but i recall sodie specifically saying at a billiken club meeting that he planned to talk to seyfert and didn't see a future here for him. several of us left that meeting under the impression that he planned to run seyfert off and, sure enough, the guy was gone soon afterwards. i don't believe the statement that he lived with his recruiting decisions in light of what he said about seyfert. i think the reason he didn't run more players off was simply because he didn't have the skills to recruit any replacements.

Whether you believe me or not is inconsequential, but I would have been curious to see this Billiken Club meeting. I would have been very surprised to hear Brad say that because he sang a different tune otherwise.

Seyfert had a long way to go on his game, but was an oustanding shot blocker and deceptively good rebounder. He had awful touch- his FT shooting was an adventure, to say the least- but I liked what he could have brought on the defensive end (just remember how Chris Heinrich was his freshman year compared to senior year). He showed flashes late in his freshman season to remind the crowd why he was named the 2001 Gatorade State Player of the Year in Montana. Anyway, Seyfert was in Romar's office more than once telling him he was struggling with being so far from home, and Romar was able to convince him to stick out the season. As an assistant, Brad was fully aware of it but unable to convince him to stay.

Brad wasn't nearly as good a relationship guy as Romar, probably his biggest flaw (which didn't help with recruiting or team morale), but he also wouldn't stop a guy who was set on going home. Seyfert was a hard worker, nice kid, good student, relatively tough on the floor, and Brad would have liked to have the depth, especially after Brown and Braun graduated.

[cheeseman]

Look at the team Brad inherited- in Romar's last year, there were no seniors. Romar had two guys signed who opted out when he left, and that was because their recruitments were based on relationships with Romar, not Brad running them off. He had to go out and find fill-ins in the spring; Edwin and Pulley flunked out, Seyfert got homesick, McClain's injury frustrations boiled over, and the team had a lot of different names in a short time span. Not one player was asked to leave.

I would have liked to see those guys stick around, I would have liked to see Romar's recruits stay with SLU, but that wasn't the case. That's also not quite what happened with Ahearn, but I'm not going to get in an argument about him for the hundredth time. Even if taking the offer off the table was the case, that is different than kids actually starting their careers at a school and losing a year of eligibility before being asked to seek other options.

Like I said, we don't know exactly know the details yet or how Rick went about it (assuming it's 100% true). His book is obviously going to paint the most pleasant picture of how things went down; we have all heard plenty of accounts that he can be unpleasant at times as well, so you don't know how he is dealing with this. He might very well be handling it in the best interests of the student athletes (as I said before), and I hope that's the case - none of us know for sure either way.

I think it is completely fair to expect a coach to get the most out of his players and deal with all of his players in an ethical manner - how are these mutually exclusive? I would think that if you are "in" when it comes to the program, you should expect both.

Actually, I think the Ahern issue is pretty much the same thing - I agree I don't want to get into a discussion about whether he should have or not from a talent angle. If a kid was told that he was being offered a schollie by the school and then the coach who offers it leaves but the new coach who actually made the offer as the assistant coach as per the instructions of the original head coach rescinds the offer,even though nobody else has accepted it, when he knows the kid wants to come and is willing to commit then I would say that is basically no different. As I said it is splitting hairs but the end result is the same - a kid gets jilted. I understand that you might question the sincerity of the book since you don't agree with what may or may not be happening now but until somebody proves what RM wrote in his book is wrong then we really can only believe the contents. I know we have to pragmatic about this program now and guess I have just reached a point where I understand that making tough choices is something that will be taking place now. The days of - I don't remember who posted it before - of the "mom and pop baking cookies for the players" are over like it or not.

[cheeseman]

that may have been reported, but i was at a billiken club meeting when soderberg specifically stated that he planned to speak with seyfert about his future with the bills because he didn't see him fitting in. not much different than what majerus is allegedly doing. who reported that he came to sodie wanting to leave?

the other guy whose name escaped me earlier was darren clarke. i don't know the circumstances behind him leaving but i do know that he sat at the end of the bench even after having several good games. in fact, he looked like exactly what we needed but sodie didn't like him and he left. you never complained about that. but you seem shocked that MR, AM, DM, and AK are stuck at the end of the bench.

i would rather not talk about why i left the team. i'm sorry if you were disappointed.

The report about Seyfert coming to Brad was what the school reported to the papers - so you are right, who knows what really happened.

[MusicCityBilliken]

There were no seniors during the 2001-2002 season. That was Romar's last season. This is a fact and you can look it up if you don't remember that far back. I was simply using that to frame the makeup of the team Brad inherited. His first season as HC would have been the senior year for Perry, Diener, Brown, and Braun. That core, along with Sloan and Fisher, remained but a lot of the supporting cast was shuffled in one season. Fisher got an extra year of eligibility back via the legal system, and broke SLU's all-time assist record. Sloan was a senior that year (2003-2004) as well. RM definitely would have loved these guys- both hard working, good leaders, great guys, and underrated in terms of their contributions.

My bad, I thought you meant Brads 1st year.

The year you are talking about would have signed loi's the Larry Hughes year. (10 years ago) Funny you would have thought that would have been a great year for recruits but I only recall Ricky Cranford (sp?) signing for 4 years and some JUCOs. The JUCOs did include the great Justin Love and Ferguson. The last year of Spoon's tenure probably was probably one our top signing periods since the Hughes class which included 2 all-CUSA players with Mo Jeffers (a JUCO) and Marque.

[slufanskip]

Actually, I think the Ahern issue is pretty much the same thing - I agree I don't want to get into a discussion about whether he should have or not from a talent angle. If a kid was told that he was being offered a schollie by the school and then the coach who offers it leaves but the new coach who actually made the offer as the assistant coach as per the instructions of the original head coach rescinds the offer,even though nobody else has accepted it, when he knows the kid wants to come and is willing to commit then I would say that is basically no different. As I said it is splitting hairs but the end result is the same - a kid gets jilted. I understand that you might question the sincerity of the book since you don't agree with what may or may not be happening now but until somebody proves what RM wrote in his book is wrong then we really can only believe the contents. I know we have to pragmatic about this program now and guess I have just reached a point where I understand that making tough choices is something that will be taking place now. The days of - I don't remember who posted it before - of the "mom and pop baking cookies for the players" are over like it or not.

Making an offer and then taking it off the table when the kid hasn't committed isn't even close to te same thing as not renewing a scholarship. My first question would be why hadn't the kid already committed if he really wanted to come?

[cheeseman]

I was at that Billiken Club meeting, and Soderberg was relating a conversation he had with Romar while he was the assistant. He said that he asked Romar about talking to Seyfert, but Romar said no. After that, I'm pretty sure Soderberg didn't feel he had enough frontcourt depth to ask Seyfert to leave.

I'm not saying this has anything to do with the speculation that Majerus has approached four (unnamed) players about the possibility of their not being back. I'm just correcting what I feel is incorrect.

Sounds like Brad did want to run Seyfert off but was blocked by Romar and then blocked by the reality of needing bodies. So what I am hearing is that Brad because he was unable to actually act on his thoughts for whatever the reasons is now more ethical then RM? I am responding to more than just this post by the way so I am not saying this is what you are saying here. Sorry, ethics are not just what actually happens but what you actually would do if the situation presented itself. For example - the hunter sees the deer but can not legally shoot that specific deer - he decides who will know so he aims and fires but misses. He is no more ethical for not hitting the deer then if he had. Sounds to me like Brad was like this hunter.

[cheeseman]

Making an offer and then taking it off the table when the kid hasn't committed isn't even close to te same thing as not renewing a scholarship. My first question would be why hadn't the kid already committed if he really wanted to come?

I may be wrong but I thought the Ahern had committed to Romar when the offer was made but then Brad rescinded it before the spring signing period.

[billiken_roy]

those of you suggesting that luke isnt athletic have short memories of lukes slam last year. if we scheduled a decathlon competition between the billikens, my money would be on luke meyer to win. just because he doesnt play flashy doesnt mean this kid isnt an athlete.

[Cowboy]

those of you suggesting that luke isnt athletic have short memories of lukes slam last year.

v, thanks for that analysis

[davidnark]

those of you suggesting that luke isnt athletic have short memories of lukes slam last year. if we scheduled a decathlon competition between the billikens, my money would be on luke meyer to win. just because he doesnt play flashy doesnt mean this kid isnt an athlete.

It's all relative. For the billikens, Luke is an above-average athlete, but frankly a 6'5" D1 basketball player should be able to throw down a slashing dunk. When you compare Luke to the starting forwards of the top 40 teams he is probably a below-average athlete.

[davidnark]

Can't call LM any kind of disappointment, David. Kid gives it his all every game and plays out of position. That said, on a team with top tier talent, LM would likely be a 7 or 8 man.

Maybe I wasn't clear; Luke has not been disappointing, but the fact that our overall recruiting and player development has been so bad that he is our starting power forward for the third straight year is what is disappointing.

[kmbilliken]

It's all relative. For the billikens, Luke is an above-average athlete, but frankly a 6'5" D1 basketball player should be able to throw down a slashing dunk. When you compare Luke to the starting forwards of the top 40 teams he is probably a below-average athlete.

Luke is an excellent all around athlete. Just because he's not flashy doesn't mean he's not athletic. He has a nice combination of strength, balance, quickness and speed to go along with excellent hand eye coordination. No way he's below average.