BM on Liddell / Majerus

[pakapablo]

Just saw this interesting comment from BM on his STL Today post.

I’m thinking it’s 50-50 that Tommie Liddell gets through the season with Rick Majerus.

link to entire blog

[SLU_Nick]

Just saw this interesting comment from BM on his STL Today post.

link to entire blog

He is an idiot and does not have any knowledge other than this board.

[slu72]

I think Maurice Scott is a better choice for his information. Wasn't it Mo Scott who said TL would transfer at least a few times in the past.

[kshoe]

He is an idiot and does not have any knowledge other than this board.

Talk about a mature response.

If you disagree with Bernie's view, how about some reasons why. I doubt there is a Billiken fan out there that hasn't at least wondered if this marriage will last. Here are reasons I think the chances of him lasting are much higher than 50/50.

1) As a junior, Tommies options are relatively limited to either a transfer and sitting out a year for only 1 more year somewhere else or going "pro" with the realization that the NBA is a long way off.

2) Majerus isn't an idiot and knows how far he can push Tommie before pulling him back in with encouragement

3) Tommie isn't a quitter and will battle through this adversity.

[SLU_Nick]

Talk about a mature response.

If you disagree with Bernie's view, how about some reasons why. I doubt there is a Billiken fan out there that hasn't at least wondered if this marriage will last. Here are reasons I think the chances of him lasting are much higher than 50/50.

1) As a junior, Tommies options are relatively limited to either a transfer and sitting out a year for only 1 more year somewhere else or going "pro" with the realization that the NBA is a long way off.

2) Majerus isn't an idiot and knows how far he can push Tommie before pulling him back in with encouragement

3) Tommie isn't a quitter and will battle through this adversity.

Those are my reasons to say when BM says this, he is an idiot. He has no inside information and he is just speculating something negative about the Bills because he probably cannot exclude them. TL would be foolish to transfer. It will never happen. Quote me, whatever. I called him an idiot because BM has no information at all.

[jimbofive]

Talk about a mature response.

If you disagree with Bernie's view, how about some reasons why. I doubt there is a Billiken fan out there that hasn't at least wondered if this marriage will last. Here are reasons I think the chances of him lasting are much higher than 50/50.

1) As a junior, Tommies options are relatively limited to either a transfer and sitting out a year for only 1 more year somewhere else or going "pro" with the realization that the NBA is a long way off.

2) Majerus isn't an idiot and knows how far he can push Tommie before pulling him back in with encouragement

3) Tommie isn't a quitter and will battle through this adversity.

I think 2 and 3 are the most important points. Also, I think both parties know that they need to iron out all these differences before conference comes around, and that it won't necessarily hurt the team as much to do so. If Tommie were getting benched and we were 2-3 or 1-4 then I think there'd be some real serious repercussions. I think barring the disciplinary action for the tardiness situation, Tommie would have had a monster game Sat. night and we'd all be hugging and kissing. Wednesday is the first game that we will realistically count heavily on Tommie. We could have beaten everyone else w/out him (probably), and unless he or someone else got totally unconscious versus Pitt, they'd have beaten us anyways.

We will need major minutes from Tommie to match up w/ either Deven Mitchell or Dale Lamperth. Both are 6'5" w/ a bit more meat on them than Tommie, both are seniors, and both scored 20+ in their last 2 games, w/ good rebounding numbers. Tommie can really put his defense on display against them. Remember that this is the Tommie Liddell that scored 20+ 6 times in a row last year. He hasn't forgotten how to score. He's just not taking enough shots yet to put up those same numbers. Once his defense justifies his getting major minutes again, he'll get back into the flow and start stretching the defense as per usual. From what I hear (I had to miss the game due to a wedding), he really stepped his D up last game, so I look for a coming out party in our first must-win game.

[slu72]

# 2 being the key point. Coaches are supposed to have a little psychiatrist in them. This is a long season, so RM has to push TL's buttons now for the long haul. Plus he's pretty sure to have him for his last season. I wouldn't see the advantage of TL transferring, but players, good players, have done it before. The center/pf who transferred from Auburn to Indiana a couple of years ago was a pretty major talent. And it ain't like there are a lot of coaches who would turn down TL even for a year's service. Read K. Sampson. The big question for TL is if other big time coaches see him as not having the wherewithal to play for RM, they might feel he can't play for them. So, he might have to end up at a lesser program that would highlite his skills. Not sure that would be his best path to the NBA. If in fact that was Tdell really posting his discontent with RM, who knows what's being tossed about over at the Lidell ranch these days.

[slufanskip]

I think 2 and 3 are the most important points. Also, I think both parties know that they need to iron out all these differences before conference comes around, and that it won't necessarily hurt the team as much to do so. If Tommie were getting benched and we were 2-3 or 1-4 then I think there'd be some real serious repercussions. I think barring the disciplinary action for the tardiness situation, Tommie would have had a monster game Sat. night and we'd all be hugging and kissing. Wednesday is the first game that we will realistically count heavily on Tommie. We could have beaten everyone else w/out him (probably), and unless he or someone else got totally unconscious versus Pitt, they'd have beaten us anyways.

We will need major minutes from Tommie to match up w/ either Deven Mitchell or Dale Lamperth. Both are 6'5" w/ a bit more meat on them than Tommie, both are seniors, and both scored 20+ in their last 2 games, w/ good rebounding numbers. Tommie can really put his defense on display against them. Remember that this is the Tommie Liddell that scored 20+ 6 times in a row last year. He hasn't forgotten how to score. He's just not taking enough shots yet to put up those same numbers. Once his defense justifies his getting major minutes again, he'll get back into the flow and start stretching the defense as per usual. From what I hear (I had to miss the game due to a wedding), he really stepped his D up last game, so I look for a coming out party in our first must-win game.

I was yelling pretty loud at the game to put Tommie in, it was pissing me off that we were losing to Furman and Tommie is sitting on the bench, until I heard why he was sitting ... RM was right, you are late you pay the price. With that said Tommie played what is probably the most aggressive half of basketball I have seen him play when he came in. He absolutely sparked the the team. We were down 6 when he came in and won by 14 going away, that's a 20 point swing in 18 minutes. Tommie got aggrerssive when he needed to and directed the offense the entire time, he was vocal and shouting instructions on the court. A couple of the rebounds he got were as impressive as I have seen, he was absolutely skying for the boards. He shut down his man defensively also. We didn't need Tommie to take over the game on offense, the offense was clicking big time ... what did we score 50 in the second half? If Tommie can play at the level he played Sat night consistently, the marriage between him and RM will be a good one and we will have the best version of Tommie yet.

[billiken_roy]

I think Maurice Scott is a better choice for his information. Wasn't it Mo Scott who said TL would transfer at least a few times in the past.

i have never heard or read maurice scott say anything of the sort. with the exception of scott's premature ripping of majerus for not supposedly recruiting the underpriviledged st louis neighborhoods thus far in majerus's very brief time in st louis, scott has been a slu champion in the last 4-5 years imo.

[NashvilleBilliken]

We didn't need Tommie to take over the game on offense, the offense was clicking big time ... what did we score 50 in the second half?

I didn't get to listen to the game, but I thought it may be a typo when I saw we scored 47 in the second half. That may be the highest scoring half I've ever seen from the Bills. For those who were there, was this a result of poor defense or of our offense coming around? How does the offense look? Are we getting lots of fast break points?

[billiken_roy]

Those are my reasons to say when BM says this, he is an idiot. He has no inside information and he is just speculating something negative about the Bills because he probably cannot exclude them. TL would be foolish to transfer. It will never happen. Quote me, whatever. I called him an idiot because BM has no information at all.

i have long given up on caling out bernie. more times than not he has proven he indeed had good information. i am not speaking specifically about this liddell stuff, but bernie in general. as much as we want bernie to be wrong on some of his slu comments, i wouldnt bet the farm against anything he says anymore.

[jimbofive]

I was yelling pretty loud at the game to put Tommie in, it was pissing me off that we were losing to Furman and Tommie is sitting on the bench, until I heard why he was sitting ... RM was right, you are late you pay the price. With that said Tommie played what is probably the most aggressive half of basketball I have seen him play when he came in. He absolutely sparked the the team. We were down 6 when he came in and won by 14 going away, that's a 20 point swing in 18 minutes. Tommie got aggrerssive when he needed to and directed the offense the entire time, he was vocal and shouting instructions on the court. A couple of the rebounds he got were as impressive as I have seen, he was absolutely skying for the boards. He shut down his man defensively also. We didn't need Tommie to take over the game on offense, the offense was clicking big time ... what did we score 50 in the second half? If Tommie can play at the level he played Sat night consistently, the marriage between him and RM will be a good one and we will have the best version of Tommie yet.

This sounds very encouraging.

[billiken_roy]

# 2 being the key point. Coaches are supposed to have a little psychiatrist in them. This is a long season, so RM has to push TL's buttons now for the long haul. Plus he's pretty sure to have him for his last season. I wouldn't see the advantage of TL transferring, but players, good players, have done it before. The center/pf who transferred from Auburn to Indiana a couple of years ago was a pretty major talent. And it ain't like there are a lot of coaches who would turn down TL even for a year's service. Read K. Sampson. The big question for TL is if other big time coaches see him as not having the wherewithal to play for RM, they might feel he can't play for them. So, he might have to end up at a lesser program that would highlite his skills. Not sure that would be his best path to the NBA. If in fact that was Tdell really posting his discontent with RM, who knows what's being tossed about over at the Lidell ranch these days.

i'd like to point out that a few years ago after watching damien wilkens, i was sure he had made a move that doomed him to never making the nba when he left his college team early. the other night wilkens scored 41 points for the sonics and is now entrenched in the sonic starting lineup. dont discount tommie III's chances. i tend to agree he shouldnt be even thinking about going pro, but who knows.

[billiken_roy]

He shut down his man defensively also. We didn't need Tommie to take over the game on offense, the offense was clicking big time ... what did we score 50 in the second half? If Tommie can play at the level he played Sat night consistently, the marriage between him and RM will be a good one and we will have the best version of Tommie yet.

i tend to disagree with your above observation of tommie's defense saturday night. since we at fans had no idea during the game why tommie wasnt playing, my assumption was it was more attacks on his defense by the coaches. so when he finally went into the game (at which time i gave a standing ovation because i too was not happy about losing to an inferior team) i really watched him on defense. if by "shutting down his man" you mean he kept them from scoring, you are pretty much correct. i think tommie got scored on once. but my understanding of majerus man to man is denial defense. meaning if your man is one pass from the ball you dont sag and you deny that pass from being made. that did not happen. tommie continued to sag continued to allow his man to get the ball. more than anyone else on the team except bryce. (i give bryce the pass because it wouldnt surprise me that bryce for now when we play inferior opponents is being told to protect the paint and not worry about his man with the ball. that is what i would do with bryce when our opponents dont have a worthy inside guy).

i agree it was a p!ssed off tommie in the game. but that aggression still isnt the type of defense that lisch, meyer, polk and eckerle are playing.

[Basketbill]

i have long given up on caling out bernie. more times than not he has proven he indeed had good information. i am not speaking specifically about this liddell stuff, but bernie in general. as much as we want bernie to be wrong on some of his slu comments, i wouldnt bet the farm against anything he says anymore.

This is Bernie being Bernie, essentially calling tommie out, not RM. Now if tommie produces he can claim in part that he stimulated pushed him and how he agreed with RM. If it goes south, he has fanned the flames and will look prophetic.

Timmerman's blog has some incitefull comments on this game, which I agree with once tommie was in, he played well on both ends of the court. I think the defensive intensity increased in part because of TL and i suspect the team thought ok now lets takeover. While Majerus to my knowledge has not commented on this game, the fact he left him in the rest of the game I think tells us how he felt tommie played. I thought tommie played well on defense he was beat once but followed his player and got the rebound. He had one tellegraphed pass, on offense. He got the ball into Husak well, but did not break to the baseline once which would have given him an easy layup. That one play got him some instruction from one of the assistants. As Angres said on the post game show, when he came in he was ready!! Kept his head in the game did not pout etc.....

[billiken_roy]

I didn't get to listen to the game, but I thought it may be a typo when I saw we scored 47 in the second half. That may be the highest scoring half I've ever seen from the Bills. For those who were there, was this a result of poor defense or of our offense coming around? How does the offense look? Are we getting lots of fast break points?

we are just taking good shots and making them. i dont know if anyone tracks it, but our trips down the floor success ratio must be about the highest it has been in years.

we had very few fast break scores. however, the one where husak blocked a shot that went right to dwayne polk who then pushed hard down the floor and then all at once we had a 3 on 1 and polk made the perfect last second decision to bounce pass to luke meyer for a layup was imo the play of the game. if polk did that more, i would quickly become a dwayne polk fan. it was what i expected dwayne polk to be as a billiken.

[slufanskip]

i tend to disagree with your above observation of tommie's defense saturday night. since we at fans had no idea during the game why tommie wasnt playing, my assumption was it was more attacks on his defense by the coaches. so when he finally went into the game (at which time i gave a standing ovation because i too was not happy about losing to an inferior team) i really watched him on defense. if by "shutting down his man" you mean he kept them from scoring, you are pretty much correct. i think tommie got scored on once. but my understanding of majerus man to man is denial defense. meaning if your man is one pass from the ball you dont sag and you deny that pass from being made. that did not happen. tommie continued to sag continued to allow his man to get the ball. more than anyone else on the team except bryce. (i give bryce the pass because it wouldnt surprise me that bryce for now when we play inferior opponents is being told to protect the paint and not worry about his man with the ball. that is what i would do with bryce when our opponents dont have a worthy inside guy).

i agree it was a p!ssed off tommie in the game. but that aggression still isnt the type of defense that lisch, meyer, polk and eckerle are playing.

I got the impression Tommie was being instructed to back off his man. As soon has he gave it up Tommie immediately sagged off his man. He stayed low in his defensive stance and stayed focused, not once did I see him relax as he backed off. It was different than trying to deny him the ball and not being aggressive. Maybe it's because that is just where he is at deffensively or maybe that was the game plan on the guy.

I'm confused about the great D that was played before Tommie was in, both DP and PE got beat off the dribble more than once in the first half. They also, along with Kevin didn't close out on the shooter very aggressively either numerous times.

[GOSLU68]

we are just taking good shots and making them. i dont know if anyone tracks it, but our trips down the floor success ratio must be about the highest it has been in years.

we had very few fast break scores. however, the one where husak blocked a shot that went right to dwayne polk who then pushed hard down the floor and then all at once we had a 3 on 1 and polk made the perfect last second decision to bounce pass to luke meyer for a layup was imo the play of the game. if polk did that more, i would quickly become a dwayne polk fan. it was what i expected dwayne polk to be as a billiken.

RM had the team in position to take over; the Bills have been a different team in the second half against both Detroit and Furman. TL looked good and the team was energized when

he was let out of the doghouse. If you could get KFANS poor signal inside or out of the Scott Trade maybe the fans would have known why he was banished for a half-the same as last year when BS sat him for being late. The difference between Larry Hughes and TL is exactly what RM is trying to develop in the Bills. I would bet Larry Hughes was never late for

anything having to do with basketball.

TDell, Tommie III it is on you to get there on time RM is giving you coverage in St. Louis and around the nation you could never have expected before. We could win the rest of our games.

[billiken_roy]

I got the impression Tommie was being instructed to back off his man. As soon has he gave it up Tommie immediately sagged off his man. He stayed low in his defensive stance and stayed focused, not once did I see him relax as he backed off. It was different than trying to deny him the ball and not being aggressive. Maybe it's because that is just where he is at deffensively or maybe that was the game plan on the guy.

I'm confused about the great D that was played before Tommie was in, both DP and PE got beat off the dribble more than once in the first half. They also, along with Kevin didn't close out on the shooter very aggressively either numerous times.

tommie should sag when he is across court from the ball. i.e. more than one pass away. but when his man breaks across the lane or comes around the top if he is playing correct denial defense he either leads the cutter across the lane or he out right steps in front of those top of the key picks and depends on his help defense if his man cuts back for a back door. instead in both cases he did not close out when his man came to the ball. as i have stated before, his actions are classic soderberg pack man to man actions.

same as when the ball starts to swing around the perimeter. watch lisch and polk and eckerle get up before that pass to the next guy over is even caught. more times than not, tommie waits a split second longer to get up on his man. and if you got good guards out front receiving that pass, they will indeed get it to tommie's man before he can deny that pass.

again i dont think that translates into points. especially vs these lesser teams. but i gotta believe that is what majerus is talking about when he talks about liddells defense. anyone that thinks majerus talking about liddell's defense is insinuating tommie is dogging it is just flat out wrong. tommie doesnt dog it. tommie plays very hard all the time imo. no one rebounds (especially on the offensive boards) if they are not hustling. tommie is just not playing the way majerus wants yet. imo, tommie will get it.

[cheeseman]

This is Bernie being Bernie, essentially calling tommie out, not RM. Now if tommie produces he can claim in part that he stimulated pushed him and how he agreed with RM. If it goes south, he has fanned the flames and will look prophetic.

Timmerman's blog has some incitefull comments on this game, which I agree with once tommie was in, he played well on both ends of the court. I think the defensive intensity increased in part because of TL and i suspect the team thought ok now lets takeover. While Majerus to my knowledge has not commented on this game, the fact he left him in the rest of the game I think tells us how he felt tommie played. I thought tommie played well on defense he was beat once but followed his player and got the rebound. He had one tellegraphed pass, on offense. He got the ball into Husak well, but did not break to the baseline once which would have given him an easy layup. That one play got him some instruction from one of the assistants. As Angres said on the post game show, when he came in he was ready!! Kept his head in the game did not pout etc.....

We know that BM talks to RM often so what he is probably echoing is RM's inner thoughts on this issue. I agree with Roy, don't be to quick to discount what BM writes on this subject.

[slufanskip]

tommie should sag when he is across court from the ball. i.e. more than one pass away. but when his man breaks across the lane or comes around the top if he is playing correct denial defense he either leads the cutter across the lane or he out right steps in front of those top of the key picks and depends on his help defense if his man cuts back for a back door. instead in both cases he did not close out when his man came to the ball. as i have stated before, his actions are classic soderberg pack man to man actions.

same as when the ball starts to swing around the perimeter. watch lisch and polk and eckerle get up before that pass to the next guy over is even caught. more times than not, tommie waits a split second longer to get up on his man. and if you got good guards out front receiving that pass, they will indeed get it to tommie's man before he can deny that pass.

again i dont think that translates into points. especially vs these lesser teams. but i gotta believe that is what majerus is talking about when he talks about liddells defense. anyone that thinks majerus talking about liddell's defense is insinuating tommie is dogging it is just flat out wrong. tommie doesnt dog it. tommie plays very hard all the time imo. no one rebounds (especially on the offensive boards) if they are not hustling. tommie is just not playing the way majerus wants yet. imo, tommie will get it.

You had a better look at his D than I did, as he only played at your end of the court. It's hard to tell across court how quick he closes, like I said, I did notice that when he sagged off it was with a purpose, immediately after his man gave up the ball ... regardless of where he was on the floor, if he was doing that and wasn't instructed to ... I think he'd have sat back down.

[provos528]

We know that BM talks to RM often so what he is probably echoing is RM's inner thoughts on this issue. I agree with Roy, don't be to quick to discount what BM writes on this subject.

Bernie's statement lacks credibility with no tangible proof that this is what is going on in RM's mind..besides he traveled to San Francisco for the Rams game back in the weekend, and with Mizzou football preoccupying his upcoming articles..

I doubt he was able to talk to RM recently..

[Quality Is Job 1]

If you could get KFNS poor signal inside or out of the Scott Trade, maybe the fans would have known why Liddell was banished for a half.

No. Those of us listening were as much in the dark until Tommie checked in. It was at that time that Bob Ramsey related the rumor as to why he'd sat.

[davidnark]

All of this is a little disconcerting to me. I do know that Majerus has reached out to Bernie more than any other local media person (except for maybe Cusumano), so he can't be dismissed as having no credibility on the subject. Only Bernie knows whether this information is his own personal hunch, is first hand information from the Majerus or the Liddell family, or is a second or third-hand rumor. Regardless of the credibility of Bernie's comment, it is a fact that the Majerus/Liddell relationship is going through some growing pains right now. This is clearly evidenced by the multiple public comments from Majerus, the first-half benching last weekend, and the comments on this forum from the Liddell family. Liddell is the best talent on this team (Lisch is probably the best basketball player on this team right now), and it would be a huge blow to the team--and a huge failure by Majerus--if Tommie left. I would also hate to see the huge commitment both Liddell (and his family) and SLU put into the relationship over the last four plus years fail. In his book, Majerus repeatedly stated that he is toughest on the kid's with the biggest talent and upside because he wants to drive these kids to do great things and be great basketball players and persons. I have no doubt that is what is going on in this situation. Majerus also admitted that there is probably not a kid who plays for him that doesn't seriously think about quitting or leaving at some point. I sure hope that Liddell--like Andre Miller and Doleac once did--grows better from the experience and doesn't quit. Everyone involved would be better off if Liddell remains at SLU and succeeds!

[slu72]

Well said, David. If for nothing more than the turmoil it would cause in TL's college career to exit at this stage, it's in his best interests to stay at SLU and tough this thing out. Hopefully, Jensen's playing a role somewhere in this. As a former player under RM maybe he can relate to TL better than anyone. But that's just speculation on my part. Am hopeful all the parties come together since everyone has TL's best interests at heart. Maybe you should send TL your copy of RM's book?