Congrats to the 69 Billiken Student Athlete Graduates

[johnbj14]

Athletes from Canada do not qualify for federal awards so money he was receiving was strictly from SLU. That being said, the relative level of "broke" that an athlete is when graduating after having a full scholarship is not as significant as students on partial scholarships or no aid at all. Perhaps GG was not a full scholarship player, or had money taken away this year due to him not being with the team. However it is hard to believe that he is as in debt as the general population of the school.

[RiseAndGrind]

"The university told shareholders on Oct. 29 that it was exploring buying them out and converting to a nonprofit college as investigations of other schools tarnish the industry’s image. Grand Canyon Education Inc., the Phoenix-based school’s parent company, has a market value of $2.3 billion."

Sorry. What did Grandy say?

[AlumniFan]

I don't think tuition is the point.

Some students finance their eduction with student loans. Others finance their education with their parents' (or grandparents' or someone else's) money. Grandy financed his education by offering his services as a full-time athlete.

All of these things are true and also may not necessarily what his gripe was about. It's more likely his way of complaining that student athletes deserve some form of a stipend and/or account payable upon graduation because they devote so many hours to working on their sport without pay, which also prevents them (along with prohibitive NCAA rules) from getting other forms of paying work during the school year.

He may have been inarticulate and at least slightly wrongheaded in his tweet, but I just wanted to point out that it could be rooted in something more reasonable.

If a kid has a full ride for his/her athletic ability, that is a sweet deal. Even the Presidential Scholarships are not that comprehensive anymore.

But the bigger point is that there are kids who work their butts off to get through college, working multiple jobs and taking out loans. Yes, they can work during the school year and the athletes cannot, but in the end, they still have the same economic outcome with respect to cash flow. Be honest, how many kids who are working while in school earn the $50,000 to cover all their costs at SLU? NONE! Yet, that IS what athletes receive. And, many athletes can and do get summer jobs to accumulate spending money.

Any athlete that needs "spending money" can 1) get money from their parents, even if it is only couple hundred a month (about $1,800 for a school year, pretty nominal) or 2) take out a loan. So, to imply that they do not have any access to funds is not really a fair representation of the situation. And one last thing, a reasonably articulate, well-mannered college student DEFINITELY can find part time employment. There is not a shortage of jobs, but there is a shortage of qualified, willing candidates for jobs.

[slufanskip]

Grandy got 200k in benefits over 4 years. Really? What league could he play in and earn half that? None, there isn't a league GG could get paid to play in especially coming out of HS. His other option would have been to not play and go just like everyone else. He wouldn't just have empty pockets .. he'd have a ton of debt even if he worked 40 hrs a week while going to school.

[Pistol]

If a kid has a full ride for his/her athletic ability, that is a sweet deal. Even the Presidential Scholarships are not that comprehensive anymore.

But the bigger point is that there are kids who work their butts off to get through college, working multiple jobs and taking out loans. Yes, they can work during the school year and the athletes cannot, but in the end, they still have the same economic outcome with respect to cash flow. Be honest, how many kids who are working while in school earn the $50,000 to cover all their costs at SLU? NONE! Yet, that IS what athletes receive. And, many athletes can and do get summer jobs to accumulate spending money.

Any athlete that needs "spending money" can 1) get money from their parents, even if it is only couple hundred a month (about $1,800 for a school year, pretty nominal) or 2) take out a loan. So, to imply that they do not have any access to funds is not really a fair representation of the situation. And one last thing, a reasonably articulate, well-mannered college student DEFINITELY can find part time employment. There is not a shortage of jobs, but there is a shortage of qualified, willing candidates for jobs.

For the billionth time, this full-scholarship-for-athletic-employment (which it is, be honest) is both a sweet deal and a very restrictive one at the same time. It's awesome to get all of college paid for. It also sucks to see your school build arenas, fill them, sell merchandise, be broadcast on TV, and all that jazz - and not see a dime of it, while lacking the time to get a job and being restricted by a greedy, bloated organization like the NCAA.

A free education - though valuable - is still intangible. Someone can be educated and broke simultaneously. This is the case with millions of people right now.

Athletes do not have the time to get jobs outside of school and make decent money. I was a manager and therefore had no time to get a job. That was my job. They can work part time over the summer, but having worked full time over the summer myself, it's really hard to make that money last the entire year - any less and I'd have run out too soon.

If someone works a full-time job during the season for the university (this is what being an athlete is), he or she shouldn't have to take out a loan to make up for marginal expenses. That's absurd. Aren't students as a whole in enough debt already? And if you're suggesting athletes don't work hard enough, then you just have no idea. Some work harder than others, but there's a pretty high baseline required just to keep your scholarship.

You do make one strong point - Grandy should've been better about choosing his parents. Maybe then he'd have that walking around money he so desires.

[NextYearBill]

If GG was good at basketball I'd give him a job

[JMM28]

That's not true. The most recent declines, somewhat ironically, have been primarily because of the improving economy, which has driven overall declines in community college enrollment. Declining high school graduation populations have also played into it.

Well I'm not saying it is the only cause, but it is true.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304672404579186153175094892

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/26/education/in-a-recovering-economy-a-decline-in-college-enrollment.html?_r=0

[MB73]

Comparing an athletic scholarship to a Presidential scholarship? Absurd.

• Presidential scholarship.... you just get the money. Everything else is normal.

• Athletes on all of our sports teams work hard all twelve months of the year to be ready to compete. It is brutal. They pay the price. Meetings, running, weights, practice, games, including weekends... and those 72-96 hour road trips to road games including distant A-10 destinations... do the math, averaged out, 10x a year is 840 hours alone.

Meanwhile, Presidential scholars sleep in, do much more studying for their real future careers, enjoy campus life, go to the bars all they want, etcetera. Weekends, no classes. Nice.

People who keep saying athletes get such a "sweet" deal just do not "get it", and / or are just plain jealous. Our athletes are talented but also dedicate a lot of time and risk, with many sacrifices.

(and the economy is NOT improving)

[RiseAndGrind]

I think athletes should be paid.

Nonetheless, I don't feel bad for them.

[JMM28]

Comparing an athletic scholarship to a Presidential scholarship? Absurd.

• Presidential scholarship.... you just get the money. Everything else is normal.

• Athletes on all of our sports teams work hard all twelve months of the year to be ready to compete. It is brutal. They pay the price. Meetings, running, weights, practice, games, including weekends... and those 72-96 hour road trips to road games including distant A-10 destinations... do the math, averaged out, 10x a year is 840 hours alone.

Meanwhile, Presidential scholars sleep in, do much more studying for their real future careers, enjoy campus life, go to the bars, etcetera. Weekends, no classes. Nice.

People who keep saying athletes get such a "sweet" deal just do not "get it", and / or are just plain jealous. Our athletes are talented but also dedicate a lot of time and risk, with many sacrifices.

(and the economy is NOT improving)

Strange. I must have been drinking with Anthony Drejaj's twin all those times at Humphreys.

The mens basketball team has the best deal of all. Full ride, perks, after school pro opportunities, etc. The athletes that have it really tough are the swimmers, baseballers, runners, etc. They get half, quarter, or no scholarships and have to put in long hours of practice and road trips with less than luxurious travel. And they also won't get if SLU starts giving stipends to basketball players.

[bonwich]

Well I'm not saying it is the only cause, but it is true.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304672404579186153175094892

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/26/education/in-a-recovering-economy-a-decline-in-college-enrollment.html?_r=0

That's old data, which has since been overridden. (And WhyTF the WSJ would put your 2013 article behind the paywall is incomprehensible.)

http://www.wsj.com/articles/enrollment-falls-at-colleges-universities-for-third-straight-year-1418314949

For the latest year's data, overall, enrollment went down. But:

Meanwhile, enrollments at four-year public schools increased by 2.2%, to nearly 8 million students, with those universities’ lower sticker prices attracting more cost-conscious and part-time students.

The student population also grew by 1.6% at four-year, nonprofit private schools, bolstered by a 2.7% uptick in enrollment at institutions that enroll upward of 10,000 students. Even smaller schools, with fewer than 3,000 students, reported a 0.7% increase after a 0.7% decline last year. Those schools tend to rely heavily on tuition dollars to fund operations, so declining enrollments can squeeze budgets dramatically; many have resorted to extending generous financial aid to fill seats.

In other words, even with tuition still increasing at a rate markedly above the rate of inflation, enrollment is still rising at both public and private schools.

[bonwich]

Comparing an athletic scholarship to a Presidential scholarship? Absurd.

• Presidential scholarship.... you just get the money. Everything else is normal.

• Athletes on all of our sports teams work hard all twelve months of the year to be ready to compete. It is brutal. They pay the price. Meetings, running, weights, practice, games, including weekends... and those 72-96 hour road trips to road games including distant A-10 destinations... do the math, averaged out, 10x a year is 840 hours alone.

Meanwhile, Presidential scholars sleep in, do much more studying for their real future careers, enjoy campus life, go to the bars, etcetera. Weekends, no classes. Nice.

People who keep saying athletes get such a "sweet" deal just do not "get it", and / or are just plain jealous. Our athletes are talented but also dedicate a lot of time and risk, with many sacrifices.

(and the economy is NOT improving)

Presidential scholars are required to maintain a 3.5 average. (Not to mention: I sat on the evaluation team a couple years ago. I doubt very few of the candidates had ever "slept in" after they got out of diapers, and the ones who were actually selected generally combined perfect high school academic records with extracurriculars like commuting to Appalachia on the weekends to volunteer at free clinics, spending the time on the bus practicing their violins to keep their places as concertmasters of their local youth symphonies.)

And we have indisputable evidence that basketball players go to bars.

[MB73]

Strange. I must have been drinking with Anthony Drejaj's twin all those times at Humphreys.

The mens basketball team has the best deal of all. Full ride, perks, after school pro opportunities, etc. The athletes that have it really tough are the swimmers, baseballers, runners, etc. They get half, quarter, or no scholarships and have to put in long hours of practice and road trips with less than luxurious travel. And they also won't get ###### if SLU starts giving stipends to basketball players.

Weak. Drejaj? I didn't say athletes can never go to bars, I am saying non athletes can drink all afternoon, into the evening, every day if they wish.

I do agree, of course, that the partial scholarship athletes in other sports are not as well set. Obviously. That's different.

And "after school pro opportunities" = a joke, only Hughes & Bonner have ever made a real career of basketball, the others earned small bucks for a few years and then needed a real job for the next 35+ years of their lives, so 0.01%.

[DoctorB]

FYI: our top students, including almost all if not all, of the Presidential Scholars group, work very, very hard at SLU. There is a range of effort among students at SLU and certainly everywhere else. But I think it's pretty unfair, if not just outrageously ignorant, to say that our very top students just sleep in and hit the bars. Drinking and hooking up are definitely off the charts, and it sounds like that is a major feature of the idea of college life by some of the fans on here; but it still is only good for describing about 35%-40% of students nationwide and less than that at SLU (if the polling data is to be believed). The top 20% of students at SLU are just as involved in activities, or nearly so, as the athletes are in their activities, and just as passionate (or even more so): devoting hours and hours to student groups, team sports, social justice, whatever. Most SLU students (sorry to disappoint you) are really not doing the "sleep in and hit the bars lifestyle" so admired by some of you. Sorry to blow your minds...

As for athletes: Drejaj, a good dude by the way, drank his share, no doubt; and we all know the kinds of parties that more recent players liked; but believe me those are the outliers among the athletes I've known at SLU. I just went a couple weeks ago to the Athletic Dept. celebration for the athletes who scored a 4.0 last year -- about 60 of them. What a group -- I taught a couple of them and they are very impressive people. Far more impressive than I was, at their age. Also, by the way, Mike Crawford was there. So really, I think it's easy to look at Mizzou or other big time programs and the nonsense associated with them, and think this or that about our student athletes. I'm telling you: most of them work very hard, have exceptional time management skills, and are passionate about what they are doing. But they made a deal, and went into the deal with eyes open, and from what they tell me, are proud and happy to be in the very favorable position they are in, at SLU. And most of them have many friends going deeply into debt, working part-time (or worse), commuting, etc., and not doing nearly so well as them. They are getting a very good deal, and they know it, and they are taking advantage of it by working hard to succeed; no regrets. God bless 'em.

[JMM28]

And "after school pro opportunities" = a joke, only Hughes & Bonner have ever made a real career of basketball, the others earned small bucks for a few years and then needed a real job for the next 35+ years of their lives, so 0.01%.

The pay obviously depends on what foreign league they go to, but a lot more than just Bonner and Hughes have made good money in basketball. I believe the average foreign league pays somewhere in the 50-65k a year range. That is a lot more than the average communications/biz/whatever graduate from SLU. Marquee, Kwamain, Conklin, Lisch all probably hit 6 figures which they usually don't pay taxes on, depending on the league.

The average graduate is going to switch careers too. The country is littered with ex-NCAA athletes that played pro for a few years, came back, bought into an insurance or financial business, and set up shop in their hometown or college town.

[brianstl]

The pay obviously depends on what foreign league they go to, but a lot more than just Bonner and Hughes have made good money in basketball. I believe the average foreign league pays somewhere in the 50-65k a year range. That is a lot more than the average communications/biz/whatever graduate from SLU. Marquee, Kwamain, Conklin, Lisch all probably hit 6 figures which they usually don't pay taxes on, depending on the league.

The average graduate is going to switch careers too. The country is littered with ex-NCAA athletes that played pro for a few years, came back, bought into an insurance or financial business, and set up shop in their hometown or college town.

Justin Love and Josh Fisher made some substantial change in Europe. Even, Chris Heinrich made a decent living for a decade playing basketball.

[MB73]

The pay obviously depends on what foreign league they go to, but a lot more than just Bonner and Hughes have made good money in basketball. I believe the average foreign league pays somewhere in the 50-65k a year range. That is a lot more than the average communications/biz/whatever graduate from SLU. Marquee, Kwamain, Conklin, Lisch all probably hit 6 figures which they usually don't pay taxes on, depending on the league.

The average graduate is going to switch careers too. The country is littered with ex-NCAA athletes that played pro for a few years, came back, bought into an insurance or financial business, and set up shop in their hometown or college town.

Sure for 4-5-6 years.

Then they are 27-28 or so, need to make a living, 35+ more years of work, and have no prior experience in whatever field they attempt to pursue, whereas the other students have 4-5-6 years of related experience.

(and sure, DocB, a lot of academic scholarship recipients work hard, of course, but the athletes do not have the time to work equally as hard and devote it to a field, a career, that is their realistic future; basketball is not a realistic future career)

[Box and Won]

Even, Chris Heinrich made a decent living for a decade playing basketball.

ALL BECAUSE OF THE BIG MAN CAMP HE ATTENDED!!!1!

[Dwayne's_World]

Weak. Drejaj? I didn't say athletes can never go to bars, I am saying non athletes can drink all afternoon, into the evening, every day if they wish.

I do agree, of course, that the partial scholarship athletes in other sports are not as well set. Obviously. That's different.

And "after school pro opportunities" = a joke, only Hughes & Bonner have ever made a real career of basketball, the others earned small bucks for a few years and then needed a real job for the next 35+ years of their lives, so 0.01%.

I guess if you're a student who doesn't give a #### about your education and your major is a joke, then yes this is possible. But pretty much all of the students who care about getting a good education and doing well at SLU do not go out to drink every afternoon. Probably once a week, twice at most. Basketball players go out just as much as the non athletes, and I would say their course load is not nearly as strenuous as the engineering/science/math majors.

Not saying the basketball players don't work extremely hard, but it's a joke to say that other students don't work just as hard if not harder in the classroom and in other areas of involvement.

[HoosierPal]

A question for Doctor B or others in the know.

it seems to be the norm these days for student athletes to graduate in 3+ or 4 years. It has been a long time since a senior SLU basketball player has not graduated in 4 years. It also seems to be the norm that many, many "regular" students are needing 4 to 5 years to get the same degree.

Why?

[MB73]

I guess if you're a student who doesn't give a #### about your education and your major is a joke, then yes this is possible. But pretty much all of the students who care about getting a good education and doing well at SLU do not go out to drink every afternoon. Probably once a week, twice at most. Basketball players go out just as much as the non athletes, and I would say their course load is not nearly as strenuous as the engineering/science/math majors.

Not saying the basketball players don't work extremely hard, but it's a joke to say that other students don't work just as hard if not harder in the classroom and in other areas of involvement.

Think.

My point is the overwhelming hours spent as an athlete take a lot away the opportunity to study and enjoy student life. I am not saying a lot of students do not work hard, I am saying they can work hard because they have much, much more time to do so.

[kwyjibo]

That's old data, which has since been overridden. (And WhyTF the WSJ would put your 2013 article behind the paywall is incomprehensible.)

http://www.wsj.com/articles/enrollment-falls-at-colleges-universities-for-third-straight-year-1418314949

For the latest year's data, overall, enrollment went down. But:

In other words, even with tuition still increasing at a rate markedly above the rate of inflation, enrollment is still rising at both public and private schools.

I wanted to point out that JMM28's NYTimes link makes Bonwich's original point quite well and Bonwich further makes excellent evidence based points.

While the cost of higher ed does not impact the enrollment in simple ways, it does impact debt. Since data collection (by NY Fed Reserve) began in the third quarter of 2006, nonstudent debt is unchanged (up/down 0%) but Student debt is up 166%. It’s gone from 4% of total household debt outstanding to 10%.

Reality.

[billiken_roy]

MB I suggest you contact slu and volunteer for next year's presidential scholarship evaluation team. I can assure you that if you met this elite group of students and knew of their academic demands and the requirement to serve as student ambassadors for slu on a constant basis you would not have included them in your comparison.

I have served on that selection council a c couple of times as well as the nervous father of a candidate once. The select winners of that slu scholarship put in a grinding schedule to maintain the level of high achieving scholars and maintain the pristine reputation and appearance needed to represent slu as the ambassadors they are.

You want to create some sort of comparison for general students go right ahead but I would defend the presidential scholarship winners at slu over the student athletes to the nth degree. You typically are right on the mark in your comments in my opinion but in this instance you couldn't be more wrong

[For-DaLove]

A question for Doctor B or others in the know.

it seems to be the norm these days for student athletes to graduate in 3+ or 4 years. It has been a long time since a senior SLU basketball player has not graduated in 4 years. It also seems to be the norm that many, many "regular" students are needing 4 to 5 years to get the same degree.

Why?

One big factor is that the basketball players are taking classes over the summer throughout their careers. Doing this speeds up the process and gives more room for error. Additionally, I would guess that many "regular" students that take more than the typical 4 years do so by choice, not necessity. Many of those same students aren't in a rush to start making money in the real world due to family support.

[Pistol]

A question for Doctor B or others in the know.

it seems to be the norm these days for student athletes to graduate in 3+ or 4 years. It has been a long time since a senior SLU basketball player has not graduated in 4 years. It also seems to be the norm that many, many "regular" students are needing 4 to 5 years to get the same degree.

Why?

Athletes are on campus in the summer and usually take anywhere from 1 to 3 classes.