A comment on Soccer

[slu72]

My guess would be if you listed the top 4 sports in college, as measured by interest and attention, it would be Football, Hoops, Baseball, the Soccer. So for SLU to have 10 national championships is pretty strong. Also, the fact that we are up there every year as a perennial contender for the title, it can only improve the school's athletic image. Look at the top 25 these days, all the biggies are there, Indiana, North Carolina, Stanford,etc. Hell, even mighty ND is trying to field a national champ. While I'm not a big fan of Euro Ball, it certainly appeals to a large segment of the US population. Go Soccer Bills!!! The eleventh national championship would look pretty good in the trophy case in the Biondi Dome. Also, out of all the colleges in the US that compete for Div 1 nat'l championships there are very few schools that can point to 10 nat'l titles combined for all their sports programs.

[davidnark]

I don't know if there is anyway to measure these things, but I think there is a strong argument that college basketball is more popular than college football. It depends a lot upon the region of the country. In Texas, Florida, and most southern states, football is king. In the northeast and California, basketball is king. College basketball is probably more popular than college football in Missouri.

I would also argue that women's college basketball is more popular than baseball and that men's hockey is as popular as men's soccer.

[SLUDrew]

I think college soccer ranks below college baseball in terms of popularity. In fact it may even rank below the track and field championships.

However, I think SLU72 makes a good point. If you look at the national rankings, major universities are obviously making a big push in terms of fiedling good soccer teams. This is a start.

What the sport needs is for the national team to make a run at the world cup, and by run I mean making it to the semifinals at least, and it would help if they did it while the world cup was held here in the states where it would get a lot of attention.

Soccer also needs a Tiger Woods type personality. They need someone who transcends the game. I am not talking about Beckham. I am talking about an American who we can all relate to. Maybe this Adu kid can be that guy.

Personally, I never played compettitive soccer after grade school, but after going to to the U. High and SLU, I sure learned to aprreciate it, and I hope it begins to get the attention it deserves.

[billiken_roy]

soccer and hockey have two big problems imo. they have all this non-stop action and all for naught. 1-0 scores, ties.....my gosh, if i go to the restroom i might miss the only score of the night.

my kids played soccer one year each. i was the good parent and went to every game. i had no idea what i was watching. and my only contribution to their preparation was to encourage them to play hard. but i was clueless and to be honest other than watching my kids play, the only thing i looked forward to was the ride home.

when both said they didnt want to play the next year, i was just thrilled.

i'll just stick with basketball and baseball/softball.

[Taj79]

Normally, 72, I might agree with your overall assessment but I don't necessarily agree anymore .... I believe its all relative. Relative to where you are and what you're doing.

I would argue that if you are in North Dakota, hockey might become the #3 sport. In these parts, we have something called lacrosse that I can't really figure out or get into. Back home in NE Penna., wrestling was another sport that I didn't care for but you might find yourself an argument in, say, Iowa. My two cousins, females, live in Conneticut and don't recognize anything outside UConn women's basketball. I know the ACC area is also huge on golf.

Now, if you want to talk about revenues, then you might have something. And in this man's world, its all about where I'm taking my athletic prowess to make the almight million. I can see being Tiger Woods .... only person to blame is me. And outside of my caddy, I'm the only person I have to pay. No entourage, no agent, no nothing. Tennis?!?! Max Mirnyi is the 7th leading money leader on this year's ATP list. Who? How mcuh has he won? $1,008,247! I've never heard of him.

Soccer is probably big but only in certain locales. Why? To me, its simple .. there's no where to go and there's no money in it. As broy points out, its low scoring almost boring .... meaning that the general American public won't take to it. It only took four years for the WUSA to lose the euphoria that was Brandy Chastain in a black sports bra! If Pele and others couldn't sell soccer here in the 70's and 80's I can't see it happening now. When Laura Vecsey did here Baltimore Sun column on the demise of the WUSA, her headline read "Is the WNBA Next?" Sensational sells. Fundamental execution of sports does not.

Kind of like the WWF and real wrestling. Sad to say, the American public won't buy Dan Gable in a leotard with his genitals semi-exposed. That's immoral. But they will buy the Hardy Brothers in long blue jean shorts and wallet chains with silicone-enhanced, mini-skirt clad Trish Stratus bending into the ring getting ready to rumble. Money, baby, money. Its why Myles Brand's crusade is probably hopeless as well.

Saint Louis Univeristy is not a soccer power. Haven't been since the early 70's. That era, that rep, is long gone in the rear view mirror of "what have you done for me lately."

[thetorch]

I played some soccer as a youth, but as many americans I moved on to harder and more skilled games. Soccer is like pre-school for american sports, it is so simple any 3 year old can play it and it serves as a stepping stone to sports like baseball and football that require more brains, coordination, and motor skills for kids. It gets stigmatized as a kids sport here, and at the highest levels it can be pretty boring.

I hated soccer for a long time, but I watched a world cup match a few years ago and liked it. It is very strategic almost like chess but the pieces are humans. Now I am a huge fan of SLU soccer but never pay attention to much anything else. It took some time but now I really enjoy a soccer match at Hermannn Stadium.

Soccer is low on the totem pole in the NCAA. BBALL (mens and women), Football, Baseball, Hockey in certain parts, Lacrosse on the east coast, Volleyball, track and field, golf, wrestling all can make cases that they are more popular than college soccer. I think soccer in NCAA circles is gaining attention though and garnering more support than it has in the past 20 eyars or so.

[DeSmetBilliken]

Taj, I'll admit to not knowing the rules of lacrosse all that well either, but I do look forward to watching the NCAA Lacrosse Final Four every Memorial Day weekend. Seeing as you are from the Baltimore area(I think), I'd suggest going over to Johns Hopkins this spring for a game if you have the time. From what I understand, they really have a passion for Lacrosse over at JHU. Actually, I would say that JHU lacrosse is about as close of a comparison to SLU soccer as there is in college sports because both programs were dominant years ago, and while they haven't won titles in a while they still remain as one of the consistently string programs in their respective sports.

[kwyjibo]

The UMass-Lowell River Hawks hockey team (and they are about 30th in D-I attendance) outdraws SLU or any other college soccer team in the nation.

Minnesota and Iowa can draw up to 15,000 for wrestling. I am skeptical about any lacrosse claims until I see the numbers though (UMass lacrosse was free and sparsely attended even when ranked).

I like soccer a lot and love Billiken soccer but it is not that popular at any level as a spectator sport in the US. Sadly the WUSA just folded due to low attendance/low sponsorship.

[Lobo]

In the 60's SLU was the soccer powerhouse. They haven't won a championship since the early 70's, but have been very competitive most years I believe.

Does anyone know what university(s) has a soccer program/record that is even close that of SLU?

I am a soccer fan to the extent that SLU plays it and plays it well. I am a SLU fan and like to keep informed of all the teams and wish them all success.

[slufanskip]

SLU is not a soccer power .... I guess that depends on what you consider a power.

Soccer games end up 1-0 so they are boring. It's not about the score ... it is about the opportunity and the build up. There is nothing more exciting than a brilliant diving save in a 0-0 match, even though no one scored.

Soccer haters usuually don't understand the game ..and give it no chance ... many times it seems they find hating it something they can feel good about ... Go ahead stick your chest out and hate ...

Watching your kid play for a year ... won't help you understand unless you want to. There is no strategy in the game at that level.

If the rest of the world loves it .... there must be something to it.

I grew up playing, have coached High School, and been a ref for small college and High School. It along with basketball are by far my favorite sports to watch.

I love basketball also ... even though many times the first 90% of a game are just build up to the end ... is there really a difference in a 0-0 soccer game with 5 minutes remaining and a 70-70 basketball game with the same time remaining? Either way you could argue that everytihing previous is irrelavent, unless you enjoy the skill, atleticism and play that got them to that point.

I have heard many posters say on this board ...that they weren't fans ...but after going to a game at Hermann .... they became one. Must mean something.

[tseugnekillib]

Taj,.... I'm curious as to how you would define a D-1 college "soccer power"?

(Just an fyi, there are 200+ men's NCAA D-1 soccer teams playing this season. SLU has played in 26 NCAA post season tournaments since winning their 10th NCAA National Championship in 1973. SLU also advanced to post-season soccer Final Four twice in the 90's.....1991 and 1997, and made the Elite Eight in 2001 and the Sweet 16 in 2002.

SLU's overall record since 1990 is 206-61-22.)

[Taj79]

I would define SLU soccer as a consistent, upper echelon team for the most part. I would rank them with Indiana and UCLA along the same lines. These are schools that were in hunt, and more times than not, stay in the hunt from year to year. But because the Bills have not won a title for over 30 years, the overall stature suffers. Is there a soccer power? Let me do some in-depth research to answer that one. Frankly, I don't know.

Let me say that I am a fan of soccer ..... it helps me pass my leisure hours as best as the next sport, NFL football included. I've waxed poetically on here before how jaded I've come on my stance with sports in general so I won't bore you all again. But as I said in another thread, I just traveled to Princeton to watch the SLU WOMEN'S soccer team and loved it. Their matchup with Princeton was great; the skills were evident, and the excitement that was 2 to 1 with under two minutes to go was great. I was entertained; the game and trip were a success. Would I buy season tickets? Probably yes because Tim is a friend of mine and I have an interest in his success. Would I go out and buy tickets to the WUSA's Washington Team even with Mia Hamm? No. Absolutely not.

As for DeSmet ... I know lacrosse, I was being facitious. And I've been to Johns Hopkins .... the youngest claims that where she wants to go to school! Frankly, its over by the site of old Memorial Stadium in Baltimore and alot of it reminds me of old West Pine and Lindell Boulevards.

As I said, I don't know how to claim one's a power in any sport with the exception of winning. But winning means titles and 30 years without one diminishes the luster if you will. How many of the posters on here were alive when SLU won its last NCAA soccer title? How many others were even associated with the school? If it is as Schasz says 1971 0r 72, my association with the school only began in 1974 when I "committed" to attending. So, technically, SLU has never won in my tenure with the school. I guess I'm jsut trying to demonstrate the age of the last title and with that amount of age comes separation and if you ain't got a title in five years let alone 30, you ain't no power .... on any level.

I think I am reflective of this society in more ways than I care to acknowledge. When is past glory so far past that it becomes an irrelevant footnote? Easy Ed McCauley? No? Maybe even Anthony Bonner? Heck ... Hughes is nothing but a fleeting memory for that matter. Its a "ten second sound bite" world where guys like Aaaahhh-nold become governors.

[thetorch]

Lacrosse has similar numbers in its hotbeds like Maryland, Virginia, NJ, Up state NY.

[slufanskip]

Taj,

Just curious ... who would you call a College Basketball Power

[thetorch]

SLU has a record in soccer comparable to UCLA in basketball.

As of 2001

SLU has 10 Championships (One championship was a tie) and 13 final appearances

Indiana is next with 5 Championships and 11 final Appearances

Virginia also has 5 Championships (also have a tie championship) but just 6 finals (they would be the equivalent of Duke in Bball as the recent winningest school) Virginia won all of their 5 titles in 6 seasons, including 4 in a row. No one else has won that many in a row except SLU.

San Fransisco has 5 championships and 7 final appearances, but none recently.

UCLA has 2 championships and 5 final appearnaces

Howard, Clemson, Uconn, and maybe Maryland all have 2 championships and are the only other schools with multiple championships. I think Virginia may have another fianl appearance or title since 2001 as well.

[CentFLBilliken]

Before last season, I considered Ohio State a football power even though that hadnt won a title in quite a while. I consider Kansas State, Texas, Viginia Tech, and USC powers as well, just to name a few.

In basketball, I think Florida would have to be considered a powerhouse. How about Alabama, Illinois, Oklahoma, Purdue, Cincinnati???

SLU soccer has been to 2 Final Fours since I have been in school and have gone deep into the tourney several other times.

If you are consistently in the NCAA's and every couple of years are a #1 or #2 seed, then I would say that you are a powerhouse.

[slufanskip]

I agree completely. IMO Slu is a soccer powerhouse and a program looking to climb back into the elite class.

[Taj79]

skip ... based on your note above, I interpret that to mean that "elite" is a step above "powerhouse." Is that a correct interpretation on my part? If so, being a powerhouse does not make you elite ... you still need to climb another rung, yes? I was assuming "powerhouse" was the elite, the top level. Seems like a matter of semantics ....

I think SLU is an elite soccer program based on a lot of the numbers you all have provided. I have thought that since the day I found out about all those previous NCAA titles. When I set foot on the campus back in 1974 (for the first time), I had no idea that SLU had such a history. The fact didn't have one iota of influence whatsoever. I can safely say that I didn't know how to spell socker back then, let alone understand it or be a fan. But after a shrug of acknowledgment, I moved on ... with the exception that now I know how to spell it and I follow SLU results more directly. But an elite school ... a powerhouse ... should have won at least two or three more titles in the interim. It is that 30 year lack of a title ... the lack of a crown .... that makes me take the alma mater down a step. And winning one say this year does not restore that lost luster. It has to be demonstrated over time .... more consecutive years in the Final Four, two or so titles in the next four or five years and so on.

Given that type of criteria, I would rank Maryland, Duke, Kentucky and Arizona as powerhouses right now .... the uppermost echelon of my ranking system. Maybe even Michigan State. At the elite level, I would add Kansas, UConn, Syracuse, Florida, Oklahoma, Indiana, Texas and maybe one or two others. All of these teams are teams that have won titles or been in recent Final Fours and Sweet Sixteens that expectations for them to be there year-after-year are common place. They can win a title with five seniors and reload the following year with elite freshmen and JUCOs. North Carolina would be an example to me of a team just departing the elite group; Marquette was an elite team, disappeared for a few years, and now has one year under its belt as it tries to break into elite status. But they are a couple years of repetition away.

For football, the powerhouses are Miami(FL), Florida State, Florida, Oklahoma, Michigan, and Notre Dame. Ohio State is on the cusp but their recent title to me is clouded by the fact that they played just about everybody at home last year and are doing the same this year. Throw them in if you want. Elite teams exist and there are others who are in various stages of decline or reclamation .... Nebraska, Penn State, Pitt, Texas (was the Chris Sims era Texas most underachieving era or what?).

each sport will have its "good news/Freak" stories year in and year out (Valpo, Gonzaga, Tulane Football, BYU, etc.) but for the most part, the rich stay rich. That's why the BCS is an elite club and won't let just everybody in. That's why March Madness comes and you see seven ACC teams, six Big Ten teams, and eight Big Tweleve teams takinghome the big bucks and make their respective conferences all the more richer. Whether its in direct TV revenues or the fact that all the H.S. All-Americans are going there to play and replenish the program. Success begats success and when you are the main player in that and continue to get richer, you don't really want to share the wealth ... only enough so that your end of the bargain isn't really impacted.

Once you're past football and basketball .. the big money boys .... slamball could become the net highest ranked sport in no time flat. Bills soccer is better than good, it might even be great and I'm sure it is in some minds, but in th egeneral scheme of things, its a shrug and you move on.

[slufanskip]

I agree with your assessment ... you answered my question ... you consider the powerhouse to be the top 4-6 teams. I agree SLU soccer is not there anymore ... but with another final four and National Championship in the next 2-3 years could be.

Football powerhouses ... Notre Dame and Michigan? They don't seem to fit the criteria you mapped out ... Florida would barely be in ... when was their last National Championship? Ohio State .. I don't think should be in with the exception of last year ... which is turning out to be very tainted ... there rececent sucess does not fit your bill any more than SLU Soccer does

[courtside]

Okay I will play along...lots on here.

Florida football-mid 1990's.

Roy your point was lack of scoring. Have you ever watched D-I or wome's softball?...it is 1-0 nation. Stand two feet away, whip the ball underhanded, run ten feet to first. When has softball been high scoring? This gives the point of mine that to each their own. I don't hate softball, and have played it...it just will never be baseball or close...but soccer can cause that excitement for someone else that perhaps you gain from softball.

lacrosse, huge out east...if A-B is spending bucks sponsoring the pro bud light lacrosse league...gotta have some interest there.

North Dakota...#3 sport...I din't know people in ND did anything but play hockey and maybe wrestle.

Soccer is one of those sports that does not translate well to tv, that people play. Golf, tennis, etc...hockey...If you go to hockey games in person...and I mean the NHL, not pee wee, you will be more inclined to be able to watch on tv. Anything at its highest level in sports is pretty exciting or fun to watch in person....that is why the World Cup draws interest, and lesser pro leagues don't. I personally enjoy soccer because I played it a long time, understand it, and appreciate how difficult it is to play. I guarantee you, this season, you would appreciate it in person at SLU...they have a nicer venue than most, good level, college atmosphere. Watching a bunch of little kids running around isn't the same thing.

tv...let's face it, Americans want quick fix everything, fast paced low attention span, high scoring...hoops, football, etc...it gets difficult to watch something different. Hockey is a bad example, because before it became the grab and hold league, big pads, 6 foot 4 players...etc...it was wide open fun and exciting...when done right, hockey is awesome. It is quality of product. The NBA is to me for example a lesser product than NCAA hoops. I have heard the few mention womens hoops, how they love it, the team play, etc...but it doesn't do it for me...just not a high enough conistency level of play for me...I mean even in the WNBA lay-ups are blown at times. But to each his or her own...I like soccer, tennis, hockey etc...but it doesn't mean it is for the tv masses.

SLU soccer is like Cardinal baseball...playoff bound, maybe some post-season wins, but no title...not in a while...Virginia was the college team of the 90's...and Indiana I would argue has been better than SLU as a program...SLU did have two great final four teams that could and possibly should have won titles in early and late 90's. SLU is a soccer power, but isn't final four material every year. They are good enough to be ranked each year, and make post-season...some years win some rounds, some don't. Maybe with a few...more than one...elite class, that will turn the corner.

So, was KU a hoops power under Roy titleless Williams??? Sure they were...they were elite etc...whatever you want to call it...and yes there is also reverance for the one hit wonders like 83 NC St who get the title...

Everybody would like a SLU soccer title, just like Roy wanted one at KU hoops...but it is pretty hard to do...even once. So hopefully SLU can make a run at one this season or the next...etc...but to EXPECT one...well...for now, that is too much. This years' club is good enough to win it...but not exactly way better than everybody else in the upper echelon either...crap shoot for the big teams...

[slufanskip]

Well said Courside

I don't think anyone is expecting a SLU soccer title this year ... or even in the next 3. I would say that I beleive our chances have improved. I would be satisfied with a finish in the top 16, happy with an elite 8, and estatic with a final four. I'll be shocked if we win it all this year. however ... you never know until the games are played.

As I said before... those who have never played soccer ...at any decent level ...usually don't give it a chance anymore. Those who have usually like it and usually alot.