Who is going to score next year???

[ACE]

We were one of the lowest scoring teams in the country and we have just lost our two leading scorers. Somebody please tell me how we're going to be a better team on offense, so I can rest easier this offseason.

[Billiken Rich]

We lose Reggie and Tom and IO. Of the three only one was somewhat effective this year. We gain (at least) Liddell and Lisch. Both are proven scorers. We have a maturing Danny Brown, Dwayne, Luke, Va'shun and Ian. Drejaj, JJ, Bryce, Clarke and who ever else we get can improve or not and we are still WAY ahead of this year. Sorry if I forgot anyone.

[Taj79]

I'm sorry Rich ... we are NOT way ahead of last year. You can't say that Liddell and Lisch are proven scorers ... maybe proven at the high school level ... but that means NOTHING on the collegiate level. They have to start all over again and earn their proof. Dwayne Polk was a proven point guard on his last level. Va'shaun Newborne was a proven rebounder on his last level. Were they that this year? I beg to say no.

As far as I'm concerned, we have nothing returning in the way of scoring next year. Next year's preseason literature will all say the same thing .... Saint Louis lost 72% of its scoring on one of the lowest scoring teams in the nation and no one returning shows much promise in changing that. We will face a season where we will be expected to win as much as we can by winning ugly. Tough defense and keeping games close for a game winning shot near the end.

The current stats show Ian returning with a 6.9 ppg. Drejaj a 6.5. Polk with a 5.8. Brown a point below that. Meyer 3.4; Newborne 3.8 and JJ at 2.7. The math adds up to a whopping 33.9 ppg. Sure a year older might mean a few points wiser ... but even if these seven guys improve by adding anotehr 3 ppg to their averages that additional 21 points means we're scoring at about 54 ppg. Simple comaprisons to this year's schedule means that we would have won three games more, but we would have lost six others ... meaning a 6 and 24 record.

I just don't believe a freshman especially those coming to SLU with the exception of a talent like Hughes, are going to mean ALL that much in their first year.

[cheeseman]

We have been in this position before over the years and usually we have replaced the graduating scorers with either improved play by returning members or a new player stepping in or a combo of both. I am not worried. The only reason RB and IO got the points they got was because Brad continued to play them when - at least in my opinion - you should have had them coming off the bench. TF was a non factor due to his injury. I believe you will see DB, JJ, LM, DP, IV all improve their scoring and whatever TL and KL bring will be gravy. Not sure how our record will be but it can not be worse than this year.

[billiken_roy]

Taj, first, i believe that if liddell isnt the equal of hughes (and he probably is not) he is the closest thing we have ever had to him both since and prior to hughes. i truly believe tommie liddell has the tools to possibly approach what hughes did as a freshman. the only thing that concerns me is he did not show that take over mentality that hughes has always had. but sheer skillwise, i will be shocked if it isnt soon realized he is the best player on the team next year.

second, had lisch not gotten hurt, i feel certain he too would have surpassed every single current player on the team. lisch does have that takeover mentality. and his natural skills approach liddell. liddell is the better athlete, but lisch was the better basketball player. of course i am hoping that a year at prep school has elevated tommie liddell's basketball iq even more. btw, the above isnt an attempt to knock tommie as a basketball player. he was a fantastic player every time i saw him play. it is just that kevin has been coached to a level about the game that rarely is seen by a high school player. a true coach on the floor that understands what is happening it sometimes seems before it even happens. the knee injury really has me bummed because of the now uncertainty.

last, to address ace, i think we have seen the scorers already even if liddell and lisch never play a second. the maturation of brown and meyer and vouyoukas were actually somewhat amazing the last month and a half. especially vouyoukas who has went from my complete doghouse to knocking on the door. if the kid gets into shape and devotes himself to the weight room, i see huge things for him. but if he comes back losing another 10 lbs and virtually the same bench press numbers, that would be discouraging. if i was slu, i would have one of the team managers joined to this guy 24/7. they would monitor what he eats and does constantly and make him do it.

plus, dont forget polk. while he was wildly inconsistent and raw all year long, there is no denying this kid is a spectacular athlete. think of cordell henry at marquette. polk is far ahead of henry at the same stage in his career.

all i know is i am far more encouraged than i was december 31.

[SLUDrew]

As of right now, I would say than Ian needs to be and 17 and 8 kind of guy next year, and maybe more than anything, Newborne or Johnson or both need to be much bigger contributors.

[kshoe]

Now those are lofty goals for Ian. He has basically been a 10-5 guy since he has been in the starting line-up but I think the scoring end of that increase is a little much. I expect more like 13-7. If he gets to 17 points a game you can expect double teams every time he touches the ball and Ian is too unselfish to not kick it back out to our quality guards.

I do believe nearly every half-court possesion we have next year should run through Ian but unlike our previous big-men I don't think Ian views a touch of the ball as the go-ahead to shoot and for that reason his scoring will never get to 17 a game.

[slu72]

My day for posts...I agree somewhat with Taj...scoring points is going to be tough. My top 3 picks for scorers are, assuming KL and TL do enter into the mix, TL, KL, IV. TL around 13, KL and IV at 11. Hopefully, DP and LM can get around 9 each. for total of 53ppg. We just don't have a pure shooter on the squad but UB professes to be looking for a wing player who can shoot. I don't see VN or JJ providing much scoring punch at the 4, which will hurt. I would guess our scoring avg next year to be around 63-65 ppg. Someone posted above IV at 17 and 8. If this were to happen, then we should score a lot more as teams would be conscious of IV's being a threat thereby allowing for us to kick it outside...but to whom? From what we've been told TL's not really a threat on the three and KL's not much better. What scares me about next year is we do not have a returning senior that is a scorer or a leader. Look at the Bills over the last five years. JL returns from a dismal season but leads us to the dance, Mo plays backup to JL then becomes a 2nd round NBA pick his senior year, it took two men the year after MO, Fish and Sloan to play these roles and get us into the NIT. This year we looked for TF and RB to provide this. Surprise IO kind of did but no one was ever willing to say "I'll lead." Now we are stuck with AD, sorry Broy, but no way in hell is he this type of player. He may be gung ho, he may be gutsy, he may look like he'll punch you in the face to score, but is he the guy you want with the ball in his hands with 8 seconds on the clock and we're down by two or even one? This team next year belongs to TL, KL, DP, LM, and IV. If they can't get it done, we're in for another long season. Course we have two scholies left...who knows.

[3star_recruit]

TL only averaged 16 in high school where he was free to take as many shots as he wanted.. He is not going to score 13 a game as a college freshman. That's just not his nature.

[slu72]

Then UB needs to sit him down and change his nature.

[billiken_roy]

as far as actual production, i agree with kshoe. but the improvement that needs to come from ian is not in the final numbers as much as how he gets to them. what i want to see is improved free throw shooting and his getting stronger with the ball where he doesnt lose the ball as easily when doubled down and he is able to more consistently take a defender with him when he goes up for a shot. he does that, then he will draw more attention and when he draws the attention, that will leave the likes of lisch, meyer, brown and polk open for outside threes. it will leave lanes open for brown and liddell to slash to the basket and get back door opportunities. ian and his development is a huge huge key to this team. and the rate he has improved the last month is sure a great sign. now put the work in off the court ian.

[billiken_roy]

show me the post where i said i wanted drejaj to be our leader. i believe you will find where i said words to the effect he has the guts to lead or the mindset to be the go to guy, but in the same breath, i wrote that he indeed doesnt have the talent to go with that.

personally, i believe that drejaj will start the season starting and playing big minutes, but i also believe that if things go as i believe they will, that the continued development of lisch, liddell, brown, polk, meyer and even clarke, will eventually push drejaj to a very minor role. if i am wrong, i agree it will be an extremely long season as that will mean that likely no one stepped up to take the spot and minutes away.

i have no comment on newborne. he is a huge disappointment and i will actually be shocked if he plays a role at all next year. if he does, it means we failed filling these last two scholarships with players to contribute immediately.

[billiken_roy]

or we could use liddell as the point guard and let polk run on the wing ala mo finley at uab a couple of seasons ago. why try to change both mindsets? i never saw polk play in high school, but it is my understanding that he really never played the role of a point guard in high school. and judging by his performance this year as our point guard, i believe it.

liddell has a classic point guard mindset with scoring skills that he rarely uses. he devoted this entire season to being a point guard.

let them play the positions on offense they are most comfortable in.

btw, did you see the stat line for sammy mejia last nite? 8-11 from the field for 18 points, 8 rebs, 10 assists, and only one turnover. and i believe liddell is a mejialike player. let him be that.

[Basketbill]

Looking back over the years we have had many good freshman improve dramatically in a year.

Highmark and Claggs are two who got to play a great deal as freshman...

Highmark 13.2 ppg t0 16.0

Claggs 10.3 to 19.3

Perry 6.0 to 10 to 14 to 17

My point is there is no reason to worry now, the team that plays next november, will be a different team, kids will get more and different minutes. It will be faster, more athletic and hopefully from day one the team will know who the leader is, he will not be the high scorer, but Drejaj will lead this team in practice and during the games. I expect he will not have to drive out of desperation, as Liddel or Lisch or luke or danny, or dwayne will be open or slasing etc.......I have absolute confidence that this team will score more easily

[willie]

I thought Newbourne showed some promise when given the opportunity to play. He had a very good first half in the Memphis game here then didn't get off the bench in the second half. I think he can shoot a little bit. Brad seemed to be afraid of match up problems when he played him any length of time. He went to JJ when IO got in foul trouble last night. Unless we bring in somebody new I would expect VN to play 20+ min. next year and be fairly productive.

[Jalensdad2002]

>TL only averaged 16 in high school where he was free to take

>as many shots as he wanted.. He is not going to score 13 a

>game as a college freshman. That's just not his nature.

There is a lot of truth in that statement, however realize that Tommie was also his team's leading rebounder. This meant that on most occasion he was not out on the wing finishing the break, but coming down with rebounds surrounded by multiple defenders. I have followed his high school coach for the past 3 years. His teams very rarely got anything cheap due to the fact that the Flyers on most occasion walked the ball up. During Tommie Sr year they had 3 games where they ran the competition off the floor. It should come as no surprise that Coach Brooks sat out those games due to illness. In addition to that I expect the college game to be a little more open. He will play longer minutes which should translate into at least a 13ppg average.

If the players at SLU take the approach of taking ill-advised shots like his high school teammates as opposed to allowing Tommie to create for others then of course his numbers will suffers as well as those of the team. 3 star you need to look at his numbers. Don't get caught up in his overall scoring average. Liddell's numbers will always suffer overall due to the fact that he doesn't dominate weaker competition. He simply doesn't look to score vs weaker teams. Put the bright lights on and present some stiff competition, this is where the true measuring of Liddell begins. Look at his stats within the last 2 years when confronted by equal competition. I dare say All-American like:

Sr Year vs Peoria Manuel-Lincoln Thanksgiving Tourney Championship

23 points, 11 assists, & 6 rebounds

Sr Year vs Belleville West-Top 5 IHSA ranked team

29 points, 12/18fgs,& 9 rebounds after West held him to 3/17 fgs and 9 points in the 1st meeting.

Sr year vs Vashon-no explanations needed

25 points, 15 rebounds(Miklasz numbers), & 4 blocks

Sr Year vs Carbondale-IHSA Supers

27 points, 11/15fgs, 7 rebounds, & 4 steals

_____________________________________________________________________

At Hargrave

In the three championship games Hargrave competed in Tommie averaged 20.3ppg, 5.6apg, & 5rpg.

Sorry for the long post, but stop throwing stuff against the wall and waiting to see what sticks. Back up statements with data.

Oh, one other thing, guys got away with bloody murder when defending a great penetrator such as Tommie Liddell during his high school career. He simply did not get the calls most players received. Once he establishes that he can break down defenders, I expect Tommie to spend quite some time at the line. I hope he is practicing. This should translate into 4-5 points a game.

[Jalensdad2002]

>Then UB needs to sit him down and change his nature.

Would be the biggest mistake Soderberg could make. Tommie's value at SLU will not be as a scorer but as a distributor. When Tommie looks to score, his overall game suffers as his assist totals tend to drop.

The optimal statline for Tommie at SLU should be between 15-17 points, 6 rebounds, and 4-6 assists. If he's attempting to be Larry Hughes like, good for Tommie, but bad for SLU.

[Basketbill]

his guts to lead are going to be big for this team next year, while his talent level is not that of Liddel, Lisch etc.....his determination will get the younger guys playing just a little bit harder. Unfortunately this year the Player we looked to for the talent, was physically unable to perform to the level he and we wanted. I am hoping Drejaj learns he will not need to make the specatacular play. I see him making the hustle play that puts the dagger in the other team. ala the rebound/loose ball pass to the memphis player to complete the 5 pt play last night. He may not be the scorer on these types or play, ie LM, DB, TL, DP, IV, KL may be the scorer, but his tenacity on defense or fighting for a loose ball etc will generate the opportunity.

[Billiken Rich]

I really think we are way ahead of last year, assuming Tommie and Kevin are healthy. No offense to Reggie and Tom but we aren't losing that much due to their injuries. IO scored a good bit this year but also disappeared big time for stretches when we really needed him. I'll be shocked if our offense isn't much smoother and easier than last year.

[BillikenBurg]

from ur webpage it looks like all he does is dunk the ball against weak teams, that does not translate into a good college career i've seen it myself

[Jalensdad2002]

Or the new guys will look at him and ask,"What have you proven on this level"? Guys talk the talk all the time, but if Drejaj is not backing it up and is still logging heavy minutes look for disention to develop on next year's team. I hope this is not the case, but Drejaj has never proven, at least in my eyes to be a starter at this level. He would be a great support player if he played within those confines, unfortunately at least once during a crucial point in the game, Drejaj goes for the flash and either takes a bad shot or commits a costly turnover. If he became a better distributor of the ball on the perimeter and begins to take the uncontested jumpshot, Drejaj then could be invaluable. A very big if.

[Mobile-iken]

I can only remember one time in Drejaj's 3 years where he had the ball in his hands with a chance to win the game in the waning seconds, and they way I remember it...Nothing but net!

This post is in response to SLU72's post knocking Drejaj.

[slu72]

I've made one hole in one in my life....but I ain't the guy I'd want to be counted on to put the pill three feet from the hole with a $50 nassau on the line. I'm talking about guys like MP, the Legend (granted a rare one), MO, or JL as a go to guy. You really think UB's going to be looking for AD to fire the last three when a game is on the line? I don't think so, and if he is, we are in big trouble. AD brings some tools to the table for the Bills, and I know I'm knocking the gutsy little engine that could here, but let's get real he is not a shooter.

[billiken_roy]

burg, when tommie was in high school in the st louis area, he was playing and starring against teams during a year that was one of the best for talent in the area in a long long time.

now he is at one of the 2-3 best prep schools in america starring as well. your comments are way off base.

[billiken_roy]

to translate the longer version for those that dont want to read jalensdad's very polite post, tommie played for a horrible high school coach that totally misused the talent he had on the team. east side had as much physical talent as just about any team in the two state area and he was pretending he was norman dale.

the fact that tommie had huge break out games vs the likes of belleville west, vashon, and carbondale, should be all you need to know to realize the ability the young man has.