Hey Billiken Fans! I need your input.

[Scorpio60]

Hi. I'm a fan of the MVC having grown up with Bradley basketball and having attended Illinois State. But I'm currently in an discussion with other MVC fans with whom I'm at odds, so I decided to go to the source and get the opinion from you directly, the Billiken fans.

Last spring, when the "Catholic 7" put a hurting on the A10 while at the same time taking Creighton away from the MVC.... what would your reaction have been if the MVC commisioner's office had come full tilt to SLU and had requested their return to the MVC? Consider this... the MVC and the A10 have been the top 2 mid major conferences overall for at least the past decade, The off-season conference changes have actually hurt the A10 more than the MVC. The MVC is the perfect geographical fit for the Billikens program with MVC headquarters in St. Louis along with the conference tournament. The MVC is at least as good a fit for St. Louis as the A10 for their overall athletic program. And of course, since $$ always matters, SLU would spend much less annually on travel expenses coming back to the MVC than they do as the far western flung member of the A10.

MVC people keep saying that St. Louis Univeristy would have never considered the option because they consider themselves "above" the Valley. I don't buy that at all. The Billikens had an absolutely phenomenal season last year (much better than the Creighton Bluejays off to the new Big East), but it was Witchita St. that advanced to the final 4. The Billikens have had a solid basketball program since re-inventing themselves after leaving the Valley in the 70's, but not one that should lead them to look down on their former conference. I see the Billikens as a perfect fit for the Valley, and not so much of a perfect fit for an A10 conference on a downward tilt.

My position is that the MVC missed the boat by not approaching SLU at all even while announcing to the world they were actively going to search for a replacement for Creighton.

At any rate, I'd appreciate the comments of actual Billiken fans.

[majerus mojo]

Saint Louis University basketball is above the valley.

[Scorpio60]

Ty for your answer. But why is it above the Valley? I assume you have a reason for saying so.

[RiseAndGrind]

[Quality Is Job 1]

Hi. I'm a fan of the MVC having grown up with Bradley basketball and having attended Illinois State. But I'm currently in an discussion with other MVC fans with whom I'm at odds, so I decided to go to the source and get the opinion from you directly, the Billiken fans.

Last spring, when the "Catholic 7" put a hurting on the A10 while at the same time taking Creighton away from the MVC.... what would your reaction have been if the MVC commisioner's office had come full tilt to SLU and had requested their return to the MVC? Consider this... the MVC and the A10 have been the top 2 mid major conferences overall for at least the past decade, The off-season conference changes have actually hurt the A10 more than the MVC. The MVC is the perfect geographical fit for the Billikens program with MVC headquarters in St. Louis along with the conference tournament. The MVC is at least as good a fit for St. Louis as the A10 for their overall athletic program. And of course, since $$ always matters, SLU would spend much less annually on travel expenses coming back to the MVC than they do as the far western flung member of the A10.

MVC people keep saying that St. Louis Univeristy would have never considered the option because they consider themselves "above" the Valley. I don't buy that at all. The Billikens had an absolutely phenomenal season last year (much better than the Creighton Bluejays off to the new Big East), but it was Witchita St. that advanced to the final 4. The Billikens have had a solid basketball program since re-inventing themselves after leaving the Valley in the 70's, but not one that should lead them to look down on their former conference. I see the Billikens as a perfect fit for the Valley, and not so much of a perfect fit for an A10 conference on a downward tilt.

My position is that the MVC missed the boat by not approaching SLU at all even while announcing to the world they were actively going to search for a replacement for Creighton.

At any rate, I'd appreciate the comments of actual Billiken fans.

I recommend you perform a search on this board for "MVC," "Valley," and "dead horse." We probably have a magazine — if not a book — of material covering our feelings about SLU and the Valley.

I don't think SLU is "above" the Valley — and I respect the quality of play of the MVC — but SLU does have aspirations beyond what being in the Valley would permit, in all likelihood.

Also, I don't know if the current MVC membership and administration wants SLU in their conference because it will likely force a change in headquarters location and conference tournament location.

[brianstl]

The level of basketball isn't the problem with the valley. The type and location of the schools is. SLU doesn't attract a lot of kids from the cities that the valley is located in. The Valley isn't exactly loaded with cities with large Catholic parochial school systems. Add to that the fact that the conference is dominated by large state schools and it isn't a good fit.

[Littlebill]

well played. +1

[brianstl]

I recommend you perform a search on this board for "MVC," "Valley," and "dead horse." We probably have a magazine if not a book of material covering our feelings about SLU and the Valley.

I don't think SLU is "above" the Valley and I respect the quality of play of the MVC but SLU does have aspirations beyond what being in the Valley would permit, in all likelihood.

Also, I don't know if the current MVC membership and administration wants SLU in their conference because it will likely force a change in headquarters location and conference tournament location.

The valley would take SLU faster than a fat kid goes through a sundae. They would keep the headquarters here and commit the tournament to St Louis for years if that would get the valley the St Louis market.

[Scorpio60]

The level of basketball isn't the problem with the valley. The type and location of the schools is. SLU doesn't attract a lot of kids from the cities that the valley is located in. The Valley isn't exactly loaded with cities with large Catholic parochial school systems. Add to that the fact that the conference is dominated by large state schools and it isn't a good fit.

This reason is the one I've been hearing most often from people honestly answering the question, and I appreciate the response. The fact is though the Creighton was also a Catholic school and never had a problem with the Valley. They were just offered an option they couldn't refuse. Tulsa left in the 80's not because they were a private school, but because they had delusions of having a football program. The reason that the MVC has been one of the most stable DI conferences for the past 30 years is directly because there has always been an almost equal split between Public and Private schools (not dominated by large state schools as you said). The only time in that period that the Public vs Private issue ever became a problem was with regards to football. They resolved that by creating a Missouri Valley Football Conference with a seperate commisioner and basically no link to the other Valley DI sports other than by name. While Creigthon was the only Catholic institution in the Valley; Bradley, Drake, and Evansville still remain as private members, and the MVC has officially said that they seek another private institution to replace Creighton to maintaine the exquisite balance they've had for the last 3 decades. SLU woudn't be handcuffed from that standpoint any more than Creighton was.

Thank you very much for your input though. I appreciate it!

[Scorpio60]

The valley would take SLU faster than a fat kid goes through a sundae. They would keep the headquarters here and commit the tournament to St Louis for years if that would get the valley the St Louis market.

The Valley doesn't need the St. Louis market, it already has it. The conference tournament tickets in St. Louis already sell like hotcakes. Of course, having St. Louis U. in the mix would raise that through the roof, but i agree, that the conference wouldn't change headquarters, or tournament location if SLU once again became a member. You are absolutely right.. the Valley would take SLU in a minute. The question remains though: Why would SLU not consider it?

[VeniceMenace]

For SLU making the new Big East is all that matters.

Valley teams as geographic rivals are a fantastic rivals for nonconference games, and it's a nice nod to SLU's valley roots to play them. We have SIUC, Indiana St. and Wichita St. on the schedule.

Hope we schedule Evansville soon, a class program that Crews coached and now one of his best players Marty Simmons now coaches. At least we're playing SIUE that is coached by Evansville grad Lennox Forester, another class act.

Suggest we avoid ever playing Mo St. again after what they pulled on Majerus, RIP.

Scorpio60, you ask good questions and thanks for posting on the board.

[Scorpio60]

I recommend you perform a search on this board for "MVC," "Valley," and "dead horse." We probably have a magazine — if not a book — of material covering our feelings about SLU and the Valley.

I don't think SLU is "above" the Valley — and I respect the quality of play of the MVC — but SLU does have aspirations beyond what being in the Valley would permit, in all likelihood.

Also, I don't know if the current MVC membership and administration wants SLU in their conference because it will likely force a change in headquarters location and conference tournament location.

Thank you for your answer. Remebmer this however.... SLU left the Valley in the 70's only because it could no longer compete at the level the conference demanded from them. SLU went through a long long period of nothinghood before ressurrecting themselves in the A10 in the last decade. What aspirations are you talking about specifically? The idea seems to be floating around that the Valley is public school oriented, which is not the case. It's comfortable balance between Public and Private school concerns is what has made it one of the most stable DI conferences in the last 30 years. And the other guy that responded to this was right... the Valley would take SLU in a heartbeat , and I don't think any AD in the conference would worry about changing conference HQ or conference tournament location. The conference withstood SIU selling out half the venue during their sweet 16 runs in the early 2000's. Equal number of tickets for the tournament go to each school before they go public. If you have a dancing season, like Wichita did this year.... your fans are gonna get there and not worry about what locals buy tickets that go on sale to the general public at the end.

[Scorpio60]

For SLU making the new Big East is all that matters.

Valley teams as geographic rivals are a fantastic rivals for nonconference games, and it's a nice nod to SLU's valley roots to play them. We have SIUC, Indiana St. and Wichita St. on the schedule.

Hope we schedule Evansville soon, a class program that Crews coached and now one of his best players Marty Simmons now coaches. At least we're playing SIUE that is coached by Evansville grad Lennox Forester, another class act.

Suggest we avoid ever playing Mo St. again after what they pulled on Majerus, RIP.

Scorpio60, you ask good questions and thanks for posting on the board.

And thank you for your respectful answer! As I've said elsewhere, though. I think that SLU (or anyone else... St. Joe's maybe?) waiting to join the Big East is really missing out on the big message sent last year. The NCAA is about done. The 2/3 of DI programs that dont participate in the "bowl division" are tired of all of the rest of considerations being supplied by the 1/3 that do (and let's be honest... there are whole conferences like CUSA and the WAC that are only pretending to play football. and of the 6 "BCS" conferences with guaranteed bowl appearances only 4 actually have any shot of producing a mythical national champion, and most will be produced by 2 conferences.. the Big Can't Count to Ten, and the Southeast Cheaters Conference. In the end the actual number of teams that have any chance of competing for a mythical national NCAA DI Bowl Division championship is less than 20. But those 20 teams dictate what the NCAA does about everything else, and most specifically basketball). Wherever SLU winds up in the next few years, I wish the Billikens well, and when the NCAA finally crumbles (and wonders how they ever lossed the money pig that is March Madness), I hope to see the Billikens and the Braves once again in a game that matters.

[Scorpio60]

The level of basketball isn't the problem with the valley. The type and location of the schools is. SLU doesn't attract a lot of kids from the cities that the valley is located in. The Valley isn't exactly loaded with cities with large Catholic parochial school systems. Add to that the fact that the conference is dominated by large state schools and it isn't a good fit.

Sorry that I missed this one earlier. Most Valley recruits are from the ample basketball breeding grounds of the Midwest... Illinois (and not just Chicago), Indiana, and Missouri. Why would St. Louis be at disadvantage? As for Catholic high schools in the region, i'm not convinced that there are fewer in the midwest than elsewhere. Chicago actually has a Catholic High School League that has produced quite a lot of talent over the years. I personally went to the same Catholic high school in Illinois that produced Joe Girardi. I've addressed the part about the Valley being dominated by state schools elsewhere. It's not true.

Thank you for your input.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Sorry that I missed this one earlier. Most Valley recruits are from the ample basketball breeding grounds of the Midwest... Illinois (and not just Chicago), Indiana, and Missouri. Why would St. Louis be at disadvantage? As for Catholic high schools in the region, i'm not convinced that there are fewer in the midwest than elsewhere. Chicago actually has a Catholic High School League that has produced quite a lot of talent over the years. I personally went to the same Catholic high school in Illinois that produced Joe Girardi. I've addressed the part about the Valley being dominated by state schools elsewhere. It's not true.

Thank you for your input.

Brian is talking about regular students, not athletes.

[Scorpio60]

Fair enough, but as a former Catholic high school student myself looking at universities, I can only say that the fact that an institution was affiliated with other Catholic institutions for athletic purposes would have had no effect on my decision whatsoever. I was accepted at Notre Dame but didn't go there. The athletic conference affiliation will only matter to student/athletes choosing from among other DI scholarships. So I guess if SLU was dedicated to recruiting high school kids from Catholic high schools for their DI atheltic programs, it might matter. Otherwise, and you know that's not the case, I guess not. Notre Dame never suffered enrollment problems during the decades where they were one of the last quality DI athletic schools without conference affiliation. It was being excluded from $$ without conference affiliation for athletics that finally broke them down and even then they went down with a protest.

[Scorpio60]

How many catholics are currently on the roster of the Billiken's basketball team for next season?

[billslasttermdropout]

Are Catholic's allowed to root for purgatory bound souls, or even worse, heathens?

[Scorpio60]

Or even worse, teams from the Big Ten?

[Scorpio60]

I guess that was redundant though.

[Bay Area Billiken]

... Remebmer this however.... SLU left the Valley in the 70's only because it could no longer compete at the level the conference demanded from them. SLU went through a long long period of nothinghood before ressurrecting themselves in the A10 in the last decade. ...

SLU did not leave the Missouri Valley in the 70's (actually 1974) "because it could no longer compete at the level the conference demanded from them." Rather, SLU joined former fellow Valley members Louisville, Cincinnati, and the then Memphis State (now Memphis) in forming the new Metro Conference, along with Georgia Tech and Tulane. I was in 8th Grade in 1974, growing up in Quincy, Illinois, but I do remember reading Street & Smith's during this time, where there was talk about the Valley "outposts." The Valley had schools in far flung places like New Mexico State and the then West Texas State. The first Metro Commissioner was the SLU AD, Larry Albus. The Metro, with Louisville, Memphis State, and Cincinnati, was clearly a much tougher conference than what was left then of the Missouri Valley. The Metro was designed to have basketball schools in bigger cities than those throughout the Valley. There was a Metro Conference Game of the Week on TV with Ron Jacober, then of Channel 5 in St. Louis, and The Big "O" himself, Oscar Robertson. (I digress, but before this, when SLU was in the Missouri Valley, the Missouri Valley Game of the Week aired at 12:30 p.m. on Saturdays, with Billiken all-time great Easy Ed Macauley, who was the sports anchor at Channel 2 in St. Louis, as the TV game analyst.)

SLU left the Metro after the 1982 season, with the program struggling, and to rebuild it at the Division 1 level in the then Midwestern City Conference (now the Horizon League). SLU, under Coach Rich Grawer, earned 3 NIT bids playing in the MCC, 2 of which resulted in being the NIT runner-up. One Grawer coached SLU team won 25 games, another won 27. Those were both probably NCAA Tournament worthy teams, especially the NIT runner-up team that finished 27-10.

SLU then left the MCC to go to the Great Midwest, which was a very strong league. Under Coach Charlie Spoonhour, SLU earned NCAA Tournament bids in 1994 and 1995 playing out of the Great Midwest.

Then the Great Midwest underwent a de facto merger with the Metro to form Conference USA. SLU landed 2 NCAA Tournament bids, in 1998 (the Larry Hughes year, still with Coach Spoonhour) and 2000 (the Miracle of Memphis year under Coach Lorenzo Romar), playing in C-USA.

The Metro, the Great Midwest, and C-USA were all stronger leagues than the Missouri Valley.

The debate has lingered since SLU left the increasingly football driven C-USA after the 2005 season as to what conference is best for SLU. That is when the A10 vs. MVC debate commenced.

My opinion, and I venture to say that of most SLU alumni and Billiken fans, is that SLU belongs in the new Big East. But it is unknown if and when the Big East will expand. Being in the A10 gives SLU increased East Coast visibility, in the East Coast's population centers. The A10 is not perfect for SLU, especially with it now being on a Western island vis-a-vis the rest of the league. But my hope is that SLU is next in line for Big East expansion. There is no point in jumping conferences again until SLU's situation with the new Big East is conclusively determined.

[billiken_roy]

scorpio, the valley sucks for a thousand reasons. the day saint louis goes backwards to join the valley is the day i turn in all things slu. slu is in a good place for all things except travel in the a-10, but this is 2013 and travel isnt the issue it was 50 years ago. please leave us alone.

[slu72]

Can we stop w/the Valley talk already. The Bills are not returning to Death Valley.

[Bobby Metzinger]

Sorry that I missed this one earlier. Most Valley recruits are from the ample basketball breeding grounds of the Midwest... Illinois (and not just Chicago), Indiana, and Missouri. Why would St. Louis be at disadvantage? As for Catholic high schools in the region, i'm not convinced that there are fewer in the midwest than elsewhere. Chicago actually has a Catholic High School League that has produced quite a lot of talent over the years. I personally went to the same Catholic high school in Illinois that produced Joe Girardi. I've addressed the part about the Valley being dominated by state schools elsewhere. It's not true.

Thank you for your input.

You went to Spalding? When did you graduate?

[Schasz]

I agree with the history Bay Area Billiken gave in his post. SLU is fine in the A-10 for the near term while we see if the new Big East expands. If they don't then SLU will just stay in the A-10. The MVC is old history not to be re-visited.