Conference shakeups-again but for real?

[kshoe]

Marinatto said each member of the Big East pledged to remain in the conference at their meeting Tuesday.

Looks like SLU won't be moving at all as expected. It is probably good news as a few years down the road, there may be a second round of realignment that will hit the Big East. Hopefully we can have established ourselves as being close to Xavier and well above Dayton in terms of how competitive our teams are, especially basketball. A few sellouts at the Fetz will also help the resume.

BK, they always say this....right before another team bolts. It means nothing.

Far more important, however, is the Pac 12 saying they will stay at 12 which means the Big 12 may not implode as previously assumed. My personal view is the Pac 12 is still very much open for taking the 4 but this is a negotiating ploy with Texas for more revenue sharing. Regardless, below is a decent summary of where things stand right now.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/6998978/answering-questions-ever-changing-college-sports-landscape

One last thought; the Big East is clearly still a good basketball conference but it has been materially weakened by losing Syracuse and Pitt and if UConn ever bolts it will be a major blow. The ACC is back on top as the clear top conference in basketball.

[IndyDawg]

Evidently the rumor du Jour is that the big east will offer KU and KSU in a last attempt

At the status quo, if it fails the league splits and Xavier and butler are invited. They'd assess adding more but that would the first move

[Bay Area Billiken]

As I said above, before last night's developments, the Big East is like a cat with 9 lives.

The Big East is not going away any time soon.

I do not think the Pac-12 announcement is a negotiating tactic against Texas. It could be, but I don't think so. The Pac-12 Commissioner does not want to have a scenario with one school (Texas) getting a special deal. Also, not mentioned last night, but mentioned previously, were apparent Pac-12 concerns about the academics of one or two of the pod candidates. Also the Pac-12 did not think a 14 team league (meaning adding OU and Ok. State) would work.

The question is if the Pac-12 announcement took away Oklahoma's Big XII negotiating leverage against Texas.

I think bk18 has a good point. In reality, SLU's candidacy will be greatly enhanced by some NCAA Tournament bids. Exhibit A is Xavier, for obvious reasons, which is said to be the #1 choice for Catholic Big East expansion. Exhibit B is Butler, which is receiving overwhelming support on Catholic Big East boards despite not even being a Catholic school. Exhibit C is Gonzaga, which is even being mentioned despite its remote location in Spokane, Washington, approximately 3,000 miles away from the East Coast.

Hopefully, in the next couple of years, SLU will be able to enhance the outside perception of its basketball program, which will make SLU a stronger candidate in the future.

This being said, there is still talk about a Catholic Conference. Villanova, despite its request, was reportedly denied a seat at last night's meeting of Big East football schools, and that is not sitting well with Villanova supporters.

A poster on the Marquette Board, muscoop.com, notes that bringing in East Carolina (which has applied for Big East admission and is said to be a second tier Big East candidate behind the service academies) would continue the Big East's slow morphing into C-USA II.

[slu72]

Katz said UConn wants into the ACC and if that happens then the ACC will have to pick up another school. Could be anyone of half a dozen. But right now everything appears to be on hold, except in the SEC where they may have to bring in another school to even out their divisions. Now that OK and TX schools are back in the B12 fold, you have to wonder if the B12 doesn't go on the hunt for 3 or possibly 4 new members. Would guess TCU will be in their sights along w/ some Conf USA members. And why not go after Boise ST? As for the BE, the Newark Star Ledger's article on last night's meeting said they will look for new FB schools, but the quality of those schools will not be up to the Beast's past standards. So once again, thanks to the PAC 12 and Texas' greed, the Beast finds a way to live another day. And, at least for now, effectively blocks X from being invited as UC would block them. This temporary lull in musical conferences is good for us as it allows us time to strengthen our resume. Are you paying attention, Fr. Biondi?

[kshoe]

As I said above, before last night's developments, the Big East is like a cat with 9 lives.

The Big East is not going away any time soon.

I do not think the Pac-12 announcement is a negotiating tactic against Texas. It could be, but I don't think so. The Pac-12 Commissioner does not want to have a scenario with one school (Texas) getting a special deal. Also, not mentioned last night, but mentioned previously, were apparent Pac-12 concerns about the academics of one or two of the pod candidates. Also the Pac-12 did not think a 14 team league (meaning adding OU and Ok. State) would work.

The question is if the Pac-12 announcement took away Oklahoma's Big XII negotiating leverage against Texas.

I think bk18 has a good point. In reality, SLU's candidacy will be greatly enhanced by some NCAA Tournament bids. Exhibit A is Xavier, for obvious reasons, which is said to be the #1 choice for Catholic Big East expansion. Exhibit B is Butler, which is receiving overwhelming support on Catholic Big East boards despite not even being a Catholic school. Exhibit C is Gonzaga, which is even being mentioned despite its remote location in Spokane, Washington, approximately 3,000 miles away from the East Coast.

Hopefully, in the next couple of years, SLU will be able to enhance the outside perception of its basketball program, which will make SLU a stronger candidate in the future.

This being said, there is still talk about a Catholic Conference. Villanova, despite its request, was reportedly denied a seat at last night's meeting of Big East football schools, and that is not sitting well with Villanova supporters.

A poster on the Marquette Board, muscoop.com, notes that bringing in East Carolina (which has applied for Big East admission and is said to be a second tier Big East candidate behind the service academies) would continue the Big East's slow morphing into C-USA II.

You said it yourself, the Pac 12 does not want a special deal for Texas. If Texas now comes back and says we'll split or give up the revenues on the LHN, the Pac 12 will likely accept the 4. Sounds like negotiating to me.

Oklahoma still has leverage over Texas in that the SEC is still in play as a destination.

I'd be shocked if this is all done and the only thing that happens from here on out is A&M to the SEC and BYU to the Big 12. Too many cracks have developed and the damn is about to burst, even with the band-aid added to the ###### last night by the Pac 12.

[Bobby Metzinger]

I just don't think Mizzou's co-eds can handle the pressure of being in the same conference as Ole Miss and Alabama.

Members of the Mizzou Delta Delta Delta house get ready for their annual date with the Tigers' offensive linemen.

[Cowboy]

You said it yourself, the Pac 12 does not want a special deal for Texas. If Texas now comes back and says we'll split or give up the revenues on the LHN, the Pac 12 will likely accept the 4. Sounds like negotiating to me.

Oklahoma still has leverage over Texas in that the SEC is still in play as a destination.

I'd be shocked if this is all done and the only thing that happens from here on out is A&M to the SEC and BYU to the Big 12. Too many cracks have developed and the damn is about to burst, even with the band-aid added to the ###### last night by the Pac 12.

-i agree there is still negotiating happening with all of this and the dance has not finished in large part as there is so much uncertainty in the big12 and beast

-i would like for texas to get screwed in this whole deal but they are too attractive if they split their tv money to not get a chair when the music stops, but if i were in a conf i would not give them any special deal and make that very, very clear as the special deal unwound the big 12

[slufanskip]

-i agree there is still negotiating happening with all of this and the dance has not finished in large part as there is so much uncertainty in the big12 and beast

-i would like for texas to get screwed in this whole deal but they are too attractive if they split their tv money to not get a chair when the music stops, but if i were in a conf i would not give them any special deal and make that very, very clear as the special deal unwound the big 12

Have nots always want some of what the have's earned. It's the American way

[slufanskip]

Some reality on the Big 12 revenue split

One thing to keep in mind. In the Big XII the conference itself controls tier 1 and 2 money. That's football tv money from ABC/ESPN and Fox, bowl payout money, SOME basketball money, etc. Tier 3 money is controlled by the individual schools and includes football tv games that are not picked up by ABC/ESPN or Fox (that's important), MOST basketball money, money the schools get for selling tshirts, money in royalties from archive rights, etc. I think we all already know that but I wanted to clarify just in case.

OK, so in previous years the 1st and 2nd tier money was divided like this: 54% was split evenly. The remaining 46% was split based on several things including how many times your team was on tv. Starting this year it is even closer to equal than before with 76% spread evenly. The 3rd tier rights went 100% to each school because they managed that themselves. Many don't think it is fair for the teams that get on tv the most to get a higher share. But look at this. I was able to get the money breakout by schools from a couple of years ago and 1st and 2nd tier looked like this:

Texas 10.2 mil

OU 9.8 mil

A&M 9.2 mil

NU 9.1 mil

KU 9.2 mil

MU 8.4 mil

Tech 8.2 mil

KSU 8.2 mil

OSU 8.1 mil

CU 8.0 mil

ISU 7.4 mil

Baylor 7.1 mil

That's probably about what most people would expect. But what people keep missing is that is just 1st and 2nd tier. 3rd tier numbers are a little harder to get because not all schools publicly report it but I was able to find the following: (warning, these numbers were a year apart from the ones above but by all accounts, they are still pretty representative and used just to show a point)

KU 7.3 mil

OSU 6.4 mil

NU 4.4 mil

MU 4.0 mil

KSU 3.3 mil

ISU 2.6 mil

Texas 0.3 mil

OU 0.3 mil

A&M unreported

Tech unreported

Baylor unreported

Why is Texas so much lower than all the others? Probably because they had so few games fall down to 3rd tier. So because they had so many games picked and and televised by ABC/ESPN or Fox they were penalized by not having as many games to show on 3rd tier where they got to keep all the money. So if we penalize the schools that don't have as many games on 3rd tier, don't we also have to reward them for having so many in the upper tiers? If nothing else, just to be fair. But because of the way we split the upper tier revenue, even though it isn't exactly equal, it still ends up costing teams like Texas more money.

If you combine revenue from all tiers, Texas would be unfairly right at the middle of the Bigxii even though Texas was by far the major draw. Wonder why no one had a real problem with unequal revenue before? Now all of a sudden UT's 3rd tier goes from a measly $300k to $15mil and everyone is bitching and moaning?

[brianstl]

Have nots always want some of what the have's earned. It's the American way

Except the Nebraska, OU, and T A&M are haves. They are the programs that have had the biggest issues with Texas and it's demand on revenue.

[slufanskip]

Except the Nebraska, OU, and T A&M are haves. They are the programs that have had the biggest issues with Texas and it's demand on revenue.

Can't they start their own network to show tier 3 games? No school in the country earns more revenue for their conference to share then UT. Without UT what would the Big 12 TV deal look like?

[Bay Area Billiken]

See the AP column on the conferences at www.sfgate.com, the San Francisco Chronicle website.

You can draw your own conclusions, but this poster, and another informed West Coast observer and sometime Cal season ticket holder, do not see this as a Pac-12 negotiating ploy with Texas. It could be, but it remains our opinion that it is not, especially after reading that article from the AP columnist, who had input from the West Coast.

The cultural and political differences between Texas and California, academics, along with geography itself, especially geography itself, cannot be minimized. There is a huge difference between driving to Waco or Stillwater and trying to fly to see a game in Pullman, Washington in the Land of the Palouse.

Some here seem to think the fans and students are irrelevant. Sure money is the most important criterion, but the fanbases of schools have some relevance. After all they are taxpayers. An overwhelming supermajority, something like 75% in Texas and Oklahoma are against going to the Pac-12. Sure OU's Board eyes the Pac-12 because being aligned with schools like Stanford, Cal, UCLA, and yes, USC, would help the academic profile of OU. There was a report that Cal was going to go to bat for OU to get OU in the AAU, which is a coveted position.

I think OU deserves a lot of credit for making Texas sweat. Texas can't consistently beat OU on the gridiron, and OU is making strong demands on Texas at the bargaining table.

Also, there was a report that Boone Pickens has contacted Texas Governor Rick Perry, a former A&M yell leader, to be a leader and keep the Aggies in the Big XII, this despite A&M itself saying it is gone. Boone Pickens is a powerful man.

[Bobby Metzinger]

See the AP column on the conferences at www.sfgate.com, the San Francisco Chronicle website.

You can draw your own conclusions, but this poster, and another informed West Coast observer and sometime Cal season ticket holder, do not see this as a Pac-12 negotiating ploy with Texas. It could be, but it remains our opinion that it is not, especially after reading that article from the AP columnist, who had input from the West Coast.

The cultural and political differences between Texas and California, academics, along with geography itself, especially geography itself, cannot be minimized. There is a huge difference between driving to Waco or Stillwater and trying to fly to see a game in Pullman, Washington in the Land of the Palouse.

Some here seem to think the fans and students are irrelevant. Sure money is the most important criterion, but the fanbases of schools have some relevance. After all they are taxpayers. An overwhelming supermajority, something like 75% in Texas and Oklahoma are against going to the Pac-12. Sure OU's Board eyes the Pac-12 because being aligned with schools like Stanford, Cal, UCLA, and yes, USC, would help the academic profile of OU. There was a report that Cal was going to go to bat for OU to get OU in the AAU, which is a coveted position.

I think OU deserves a lot of credit for making Texas sweat. Texas can't consistently beat OU on the gridiron, and OU is making strong demands on Texas at the bargaining table.

Also, there was a report that Boone Pickens has contacted Texas Governor Rick Perry, a former A&M yell leader, to be a leader and keep the Aggies in the Big XII, this despite A&M itself saying it is gone. Boone Pickens is a powerful man.

That battle could play itself out this weekend, as the Aggies welcome Picken's Pokes to Kyle Field.

[willie]

That battle could play itself out this weekend, as the Aggies welcome Picken's Pokes to Kyle Field.

T boone is not all that powerfull. I have followed his career for 35 years and he has had a lot of failures. He is great at pr but is not a national mover and shaker. His natural gas plan has gone nowhere. I doubt if they are afraid of Pickens.

[Cowboy]

See the AP column on the conferences at www.sfgate.com, the San Francisco Chronicle website.

You can draw your own conclusions, but this poster, and another informed West Coast observer and sometime Cal season ticket holder, do not see this as a Pac-12 negotiating ploy with Texas. It could be, but it remains our opinion that it is not, especially after reading that article from the AP columnist, who had input from the West Coast.

The cultural and political differences between Texas and California, academics, along with geography itself, especially geography itself, cannot be minimized. There is a huge difference between driving to Waco or Stillwater and trying to fly to see a game in Pullman, Washington in the Land of the Palouse.

Some here seem to think the fans and students are irrelevant. Sure money is the most important criterion, but the fanbases of schools have some relevance. After all they are taxpayers. An overwhelming supermajority, something like 75% in Texas and Oklahoma are against going to the Pac-12. Sure OU's Board eyes the Pac-12 because being aligned with schools like Stanford, Cal, UCLA, and yes, USC, would help the academic profile of OU. There was a report that Cal was going to go to bat for OU to get OU in the AAU, which is a coveted position.

I think OU deserves a lot of credit for making Texas sweat. Texas can't consistently beat OU on the gridiron, and OU is making strong demands on Texas at the bargaining table.

Also, there was a report that Boone Pickens has contacted Texas Governor Rick Perry, a former A&M yell leader, to be a leader and keep the Aggies in the Big XII, this despite A&M itself saying it is gone. Boone Pickens is a powerful man.

-love the show, long time season ticket holder, first time caller....sorry, i felt the need to do it

-it seems geographic concerns in conference affiliation have gone by the wayside

-i think you nail it when you say "money is the most important crierion"...like budweiser, that says it all

[Bay Area Billiken]

-love the show, long time season ticket holder, first time caller....sorry, i felt the need to do it

-it seems geographic concerns in conference affiliation have gone by the wayside

-i think you nail it when you say "money is the most important crierion"...like budweiser, that says it all

LOL!

You guys like to needle your Left Coast brother. That's fine with me, as long as we are all on the same side, which we are.

Of course, money is the most important criterion.

Check Richard Justice's latest blog entry at chron.com.

If he is right, Bevo still rules the Big XII, including OU.

Also, if he is right, then what came out of all this, other than:

1. Whatever happens to Texas A&M;

2. Syracuse and Pitt leave the Big East for the ACC after 3 more football seasons including this one and 3 more basketball seasons;

3. The Big East is further destabilized, but moves into another of its 9 lives. Off we go into the wild blue yonder, and Anchor's Away my boy, Anchor's Away. Will the Army come rolling along too?

But as I posted in the other thread, after thinking and reading more (call it "after further review"), I think it is better for SLU if all this is put off, much like it is being put off. Status quo can be a good thing, and is in SLU's case, at least for now. To be continued.

[cheeseman]

My gut feeling, based upon the history of the Big East, and also upon St. John's presence in NYC and control at MSG, and now I'll add, based upon the TV contracts mentioned in your post, is that the football Big East-Big XII remnants merger would be into the Big XII, and the Catholic Big East (the CYO) would be the Big East. That's also what I am hoping.

But this only happens if UConn, West Virginia, and Rutgers bolt, or if UConn and Rutgers bolt. UConn is glue that to some extent holds the two sides together, as UConn is a charter member of the Big East.

We have to watch what Louisville is doing too because Louisville is coached in hoops by Rick Pitino, who once coached Providence and the NY Knicks, and has NYC ties. Also, whatever UConn does is going to be very telling too.

There are still some bad scenarios in play for SLU. The Big XII remnants moving into the existing Big East, including both the Big East football and Catholic basketball sides, would leave no room for Big East basketball candidates. Also, there is talk from Texas about the remnants of the Big XII taking in SMU, Houston, and TCU to form a new Big 8. Then the Big East football schools would be looking to expand within the Big East: Temple, UMass, Memphis, Central Florida. There are existing roadblocks to two of those four, but there is mullah involved too that could ultimatly overcome the roadblocks this time.

If what you say is true then SLU stays in the A10 - the best non BCS bb conf out there - I could live with that.

[Cowboy]

LOL!

You guys like to needle your Left Coast brother. That's fine with me, as long as we are all on the same side, which we are.

Of course, money is the most important criterion.

Check Richard Justice's latest blog entry at chron.com.

If he is right, Bevo still rules the Big XII, including OU.

Also, if he is right, then what came out of all this, other than:

1. Whatever happens to Texas A&M;

2. Syracuse and Pitt leave the Big East for the ACC after 3 more football seasons including this one and 3 more basketball seasons;

3. The Big East is further destabilized, but moves into another of its 9 lives. Off we go into the wild blue yonder, and Anchor's Away my boy, Anchor's Away. Will the Army come rolling along too?

But as I posted in the other thread, after thinking and reading more (call it "after further review"), I think it is better for SLU if all this is put off, much like it is being put off. Status quo can be a good thing, and is in SLU's case, at least for now. To be continued.

-BAB, thank you for taking in the spirit intended, which was good fun, and for my money the BEST talk radio host ever was Jim White on kmox

-as long as X hangs in the a10 until we consistently knock them from their perch and establish the long lasting Billiken Era i am fine in the a10 as it currently stands

[Bay Area Billiken]

-BAB, thank you for taking in the spirit intended, which was good fun, and for my money the BEST talk radio host ever was Jim White on kmox

-as long as X hangs in the a10 until we consistently knock them from their perch and establish the long lasting Billiken Era i am fine in the a10 as it currently stands

I have a lot of fun reading this board. Sometimes my age and that word, geography, prohibit me from understanding everything and some of the inside jokes. But this board is a good thing, invaluable for myself and fellow expatriates. The bantering keeps me on my toes.

I've told the story about one of the early basketball seasons out here after graduating. SLU had played Butler, and all I could get then was the score itself, among many college scores, in the SF Examiner. The score listed indicated that St. Louis won. About two weeks later I learned that the Ex had the score reversed.

I also listened to the SLU-DePaul NIT game, the one that sent the Billikens to MSG and the NIT Final 4, over the telephone in our backyard out here with Ron Jacober doing the play-by-play: "This old building (Kiel Auditorium) is rocking."

Yes, I remember Jim White quite well. And another favorite was the late Jack Carney. I still cite Ms. Blue from time to time, "All is well."

We could say that about how this has shaken down so far for SLU.

[Bay Area Billiken]

If what you say is true then SLU stays in the A10 - the best non BCS bb conf out there - I could live with that.

It's dated material now.

But the ultimate result is that SLU stays in the A-10, for now.

And none of SLU's competitors go into the Big East, for now.

To be continued (revisited once the next Big East crisis occurs).

[kshoe]

It's dated material now.

But the ultimate result is that SLU stays in the A-10, for now.

And none of SLU's competitors go into the Big East, for now.

To be continued (revisited once the next Big East crisis occurs).

I wouldn't be so quick to assume this is all over.

There is still plenty of talk out there about the Big 12 trying to get back to 12 teams. One would be BYU but the other two could be West Virginia and Louisville and both would jump in a heartbeat. Throw in UConn and maybe a Rutgers to the ACC and the Big East is still dead as a football conference.

Would I bet on this happening, no? But I sure wouldn't assume that this whole thing is done.

[superslu]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume this is all over.

There is still plenty of talk out there about the Big 12 trying to get back to 12 teams. One would be BYU but the other two could be West Virginia and Louisville and both would jump in a heartbeat. Throw in UConn and maybe a Rutgers to the ACC and the Big East is still dead as a football conference.

Would I bet on this happening, no? But I sure wouldn't assume that this whole thing is done.

We'll probably know in the next couple of days if the dust has really settled. Even so, there is no reason to assume it won't start again next summer. I'm not sure how the Big East will hang on to a BCS bid, but stranger things have happened.

[superslu]

Have nots always want some of what the have's earned. It's the American way

If Texas had what these other conferences wanted, why have they been rejected by the ACC and Pac 12? It looks like Texas really screwed this one up. 2 years ago they were the lead team in what was probably the second best football conference behind the SEC. They had more money rolling in than the other teams in the conference and a clear path to a BCS bid. Now they're begging to get in the ACC and getting passed over by Pitt. They've begged a&m and oklahoma to stay. Now they're lucky to be part of a diminished Big 12. Texas is a great example of being blinded by greed and overplaying your hand. The program will always be fine, but I doubt they'll ever have the same position of strength in a quality conference again. What a pathetic mess the big 12 is.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume this is all over.

There is still plenty of talk out there about the Big 12 trying to get back to 12 teams. One would be BYU but the other two could be West Virginia and Louisville and both would jump in a heartbeat. Throw in UConn and maybe a Rutgers to the ACC and the Big East is still dead as a football conference.

Would I bet on this happening, no? But I sure wouldn't assume that this whole thing is done.

Big East football refuses to die. What you note could happen. But the Big East will already be going after Navy and Air Force, hoping they bring Army, with the belief being Army accepts if the other two service academies accept. So that's 3 teams. Then Temple/Villanova and Central Florida are listed. That's 5 teams. Source for this is nj.com. Next would be Houston, Memphis, and East Carolina.

Who knows? What SLU has to watch is for unrest on the Big East basketball side, and if that side starts a recruiting effort (or even the separate basketball conference). My opinion/hope is that recruiting would be down the road, and that's what I think would be best for SLU. Deferral is a good thing for the alma mater in this case, in my opinion.

[superslu]

Big East football refuses to die. What you note could happen. But the Big East will already be going after Navy and Air Force, hoping they bring Army, with the belief being Army accepts if the other two service academies accept. So that's 3 teams. Then Temple/Villanova and Central Florida are listed. That's 5 teams. Source for this is nj.com. Next would be Houston, Memphis, and East Carolina.

Who knows? What SLU has to watch is for unrest on the Big East basketball side, and if that side starts a recruiting effort (or even the separate basketball conference). My opinion/hope is that recruiting would be down the road, and that's what I think would be best for SLU. Deferral is a good thing for the alma mater in this case, in my opinion.

If the Big East basketball teams split, how big do you think the conference would have to be to include SLU? I guess it depends somewhat on Notre Dame. If ND stays on board, I would guess that Xavier and Butler would be the first 2 picks if they'd want it. I'm thinking it would have to go to 12 teams to include the Bills. I don't think there's as much incentive to have huge basketball conferences vs. football.