SWIC and Harrelson

[Guest BillikenReport]

i'd like to clarify, my comments are not about harrelson. they are about those posters that have been preaching he was a sure thing for months. i told you all months ago that the word was that the big boys were swarming around. yet the masses here kept saying it was a sure thing. all i am pointing out is that the posters were wrong. that has nothing to do with harrelson and what he should do.

Stop the BS.

Please go back and pull up some posts where people said Harrellson was definitely coming to SLU.

[moytoy12]

i'd like to clarify, my comments are not about harrelson. they are about those posters that have been preaching he was a sure thing for months. i told you all months ago that the word was that the big boys were swarming around. yet the masses here kept saying it was a sure thing. all i am pointing out is that the posters were wrong. that has nothing to do with harrelson and what he should do.

I don't remember the "masses" saying JH was "sure thing" when the big boys came around. But I do have a faulty memory issue.

Roy, i do remember you being fairly consistent in your thinking that since JH was only offered a WIU schollie, he likely wasn't as good as many were building him up to be. I don't recall you backing off of this much.

[Billiken Rich]

I don't remember the "masses" saying JH was "sure thing" when the big boys came around. But I do have a faulty memory issue.

Roy, i do remember you being fairly consistent in your thinking that since JH was only offered a WIU schollie, he likely wasn't as good as many were building him up to be. I don't recall you backing off of this much.

Whatever happened to the good old days when you could make a statement like Jeremiah Wright or Senator Allen or even just post an opinion on a basketball board without all these nasty bloggers and posters jumping in your shiite? The world used to be a much easier place to operate.

Shame on you Moytoy!

[Clock_Tower]

you are ridiculous. there's a huge difference between a coach not being wise enough to seal the deal with a player during his junior year of high school, which majerus has already done with numerous players, and not being able to seal the deal with a player who is still committed to another school.

i think we had all been under the impression that harrelson would come to slu if released, however, no one knew how badly soderberg underevaluated him. in other words, we had no idea he'd be recruited by kentucky, indiana, etc.

if soderberg would have done his job a few years ago, we wouldn't be in this position. neither you nor he thought harrelson was good enough. we've heard the excuse (that soderberg was holding off for rodney alexander). i think that excuse is ludicrous. first, alexander hasn't proven to be a star, so i guess he had that evaluated wrong. second, why not offer both of them. oh, i forgot, soderberg liked to save half his scholies each year because that makes sense.

how bs could have seen him play as many times as he did and not offer him is still beyond me.

Billy. You are dead wrong. If Brad and SLU underevaluated him, then so did every other school. I would even say that WIU also underevaluated even though they were the only ones to give him a scholaship. By that, I mean that would think Derek Thomas and WIU would be shocked, pleasantly but still shocked, to see how much Josh has improved.

You are dead wrong in that Josh apparently was not all that good in the Fall prior to his Senior year in high school. In support, he received no other offers. Following his commitment to WIU that Fall, he was untouchable and could not be spoken to by Brad, RM or anyone else.

[moytoy12]

Whatever happened to the good old days when you could make a statement like Jeremiah Wright or Senator Allen or even just post an opinion on a basketball board without all these nasty bloggers and posters jumping in your shiite? The world used to be a much easier place to operate.

Shame on you Moytoy!

Ha!

Ahh...the good ole days.

Rich, are you going to head out to Denver to watch the Democrats tear each other a new one? If so, i'll buy the beer and secure us a front row seat.

[brianstl]

Ha!

Ahh...the good ole days.

Rich, are you going to head out to Denver to watch the Democrats tear each other a new one? If so, i'll buy the beer and secure us a front row seat.

That might end up being better than any boxing or MMA PPV all year.

[Billiken Rich]

Ha!

Ahh...the good ole days.

Rich, are you going to head out to Denver to watch the Democrats tear each other a new one? If so, i'll buy the beer and secure us a front row seat.

I'd love nothing better. A good old fashioned arse-kicking convention. Hell a convention that actually means something? Pinch me, I must be dreaming! It'd get better ratings than a good heavyweight boxing match. It'll certainly be more interesting than the crowning of King McLame on the other side.

[kshoe]

i'd like to clarify, my comments are not about harrelson. they are about those posters that have been preaching he was a sure thing for months. i told you all months ago that the word was that the big boys were swarming around. yet the masses here kept saying it was a sure thing. all i am pointing out is that the posters were wrong. that has nothing to do with harrelson and what he should do.

Please find the posts by any poster other than Big Bill Fan that insinuate its a done deal (and if you read his posts in this thread he provides a very good summary of the timeline). Yet you keep talking about the "masses saying it was a sure thing." Find some of those posts. It should be easy to seach under "Harrellson" or "done deal".

[slu72]

Stop the BS.

Please go back and pull up some posts where people said Harrellson was definitely coming to SLU.

I don't recall anyone saying once he gets out of his LOI he's a lock for SLU. There were many threads that said or implied, he once wanted to come here but never had an offer or was told to wait. Then when he got jammed by WIU, some indicated we had the inside track, but never a sure bet. Then he displays his talents at SWIC, the bigs like what they see, and, voila, we're in a Stemler situation. Yes, there are posters on here that are Harrelson advocates and have been for some time. Eg; V was saying offer him two years ago, but of course V wanted every ST.L kid to be offered. But even they never said, "he's coming." A lot of us are hoping he comes, because he surely would help next year as well for the next two. That's about it. One thing for certain is we are still paying the price for our previous HC having his head up his a** two years ago when he could have signed him. But no he goes out and signs a HD, who doesn't make it one semester. If amateurs, like V, and those who cover the HS scene, Nate, can see it, why didn't our HC see it? It wasn't like we had 3 and 4 star bigs lining up to play for dear old SLU. Broy, you gotta' get over defending him. He set us back and his failures continue to haunt us. Especially so, if JH ends up somewhere else, and we see him dancing next March, while we're home twiddling our thumbs.

[3star_recruit]

I think this is the source of Roy's testiness.

http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?s...0rick&st=20

This was almost two months AFTER the article where the SWIC coach gave a list of BCS schools hot after Harrellson.

[brianstl]

I think this is the source of Roy's testiness.

http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?s...0rick&st=20

This was almost two months AFTER the article where the SWIC coach gave a list of BCS schools hot after Harrellson.

Yeah I probably jumped the gun a little bit there. That said, I still like are chances of landing him.

[NashvilleBilliken]

I think this is the source of Roy's testiness.

http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?s...0rick&st=20

This was almost two months AFTER the article where the SWIC coach gave a list of BCS schools hot after Harrellson.

lol...4 months later we're having the same conversation...

[billikenbilly]

Billy. You are dead wrong. If Brad and SLU underevaluated him, then so did every other school. I would even say that WIU also underevaluated even though they were the only ones to give him a scholaship. By that, I mean that would think Derek Thomas and WIU would be shocked, pleasantly but still shocked, to see how much Josh has improved.

You are dead wrong in that Josh apparently was not all that good in the Fall prior to his Senior year in high school. In support, he received no other offers. Following his commitment to WIU that Fall, he was untouchable and could not be spoken to by Brad, RM or anyone else.

Actually, I'm right clocktower. many people saw harrelson play before he signed and said he was good enough. i can't say i'm one of those, but i will say that evaluating a player requires more than just watching him and saying he's good. it means spotting a player who may turn in to something more. i think slu and every other school who watched him, in that sense underevaluated him. he WAS good prior to his senior year. problem was we didn't recruit him. plain and simple. just like we didn't recruit ahern and just like we chose grimes over shaw. many mistakes were made with the past regime that i just don't think will be made with the current one.

how do you say i am dead wrong in that he "apparently was not all that good." did you see him play that fall. many on this board did and were questioning all along why we weren't after him. if you didn't see him play then don't call me dead wrong.

[BIG BILL FAN]

I think this is the source of Roy's testiness.

http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?s...0rick&st=20

This was almost two months AFTER the article where the SWIC coach gave a list of BCS schools hot after Harrellson.

The childishness of some here is amazing... For the record, the last time I talked directly to Josh was in November, no, I don't call him every day to find out what his latest thoughts are. If someone tells me (and others) that he would love to play for SLU, why wouldn't I believe it? Can I gaurantee that Josh is coming to SLU? of course not. What the hell is your point? I've talked to Josh, and some of his coaches and passed on what I know. Do we want information on this board or not? Has Josh said somewhere that he doesn't want to come to SLU? I'm tired on the insinuations, that I am making up what I have posted on this board.

[Clock_Tower]

Actually, I'm right clocktower. many people saw harrelson play before he signed and said he was good enough. i can't say i'm one of those, but i will say that evaluating a player requires more than just watching him and saying he's good. it means spotting a player who may turn in to something more. i think slu and every other school who watched him, in that sense underevaluated him. he WAS good prior to his senior year. problem was we didn't recruit him. plain and simple. just like we didn't recruit ahern and just like we chose grimes over shaw. many mistakes were made with the past regime that i just don't think will be made with the current one.

how do you say i am dead wrong in that he "apparently was not all that good." did you see him play that fall. many on this board did and were questioning all along why we weren't after him. if you didn't see him play then don't call me dead wrong.

Billy. When I say he "apparently was not all that good", I mean that good players usually get scholarship offers from good schools. Josh did not. Name the list of schools which offered Josh in the Fall of his Senior year in high school. Believe the list will be a rather short one with one of the "best" schools being WIU.

Did I see him play? The answer is no. If you saw him play and you thought he was a medium to high Div 1 talent, then many schools would benefit from your services. In reality, most Div 1 schools did not offer him so I don't think we can kick Brad and all of the other Div 1 coaches too hard. Sounds like he is the perfect example of a late bloomer, from a lesser known high school program who did not play on a high-level AAU. End of story. If SIUC or Missouri State, saw something and we didn't, then let the kicking begin. Last I checked, though, we will not win many games against XU by competiting with WIU for recruits.

[ACE]

Actually, I'm right clocktower. many people saw harrelson play before he signed and said he was good enough. i can't say i'm one of those, but i will say that evaluating a player requires more than just watching him and saying he's good. it means spotting a player who may turn in to something more. i think slu and every other school who watched him, in that sense underevaluated him. he WAS good prior to his senior year. problem was we didn't recruit him. plain and simple. just like we didn't recruit ahern and just like we chose grimes over shaw. many mistakes were made with the past regime that i just don't think will be made with the current one.

how do you say i am dead wrong in that he "apparently was not all that good." did you see him play that fall. many on this board did and were questioning all along why we weren't after him. if you didn't see him play then don't call me dead wrong.

Recruiting and evaluating talent is not easy, but that's why those who are good at it, make a nice living. It seems to me, that programs like SLU need to identify kids with a big upside and get commitments before their stock rises and more quality schools get involved. The prior regime did a terrible job in this respect, while other programs in the region like SIU and Butler did a very good job at this. It seems to me when we signed Dustin Maguire during the fall period, that was Sodie's attempt to do this. Well, the talent evaluation in that instance was bad. The kid's stock never rose and he was a bust. Now the next fall rolls around and Sodie has an opportunity to do the same with Harrellson and land a kid who was right there for the taking. Well, sure enough, that's the kid whose stock soars. That was that diamond in the rough the staff didn't recognize. The defense of Sodie was that "well, only Western Illinois offered him." I understand that, but did Dustin Maguire have any decent offers? Did Anthony Mitchell have any decent offers? I don't think you can base your whole recruiting strategy on finding those late-bloomers or hidden gems, but Sodie needed to do it a few times, yet he couldn't.

The current regime seems to be doing quite well in this respect. Certainly the Majerus name will open more doors than Sodie, but in the case of KMitchell and Cassitty, we got in early on those kids before bigger name programs started getting involved and it paid off.

[NashvilleBilliken]

Do we want information on this board or not? Has Josh said somewhere that he doesn't want to come to SLU? I'm tired on the insinuations, that I am making up what I have posted on this board.

BBF, please continue to post any info you have. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us greatly appreciate your insight.

[Clock_Tower]

Recruiting and evaluating talent is not easy, but that's why those who are good at it, make a nice living. It seems to me, that programs like SLU need to identify kids with a big upside and get commitments before their stock rises and more quality schools get involved. The prior regime did a terrible job in this respect, while other programs in the region like SIU and Butler did a very good job at this. It seems to me when we signed Dustin Maguire during the fall period, that was Sodie's attempt to do this. Well, the talent evaluation in that instance was bad. The kid's stock never rose and he was a bust. Now the next fall rolls around and Sodie has an opportunity to do the same with Harrellson and land a kid who was right there for the taking. Well, sure enough, that's the kid whose stock soars. That was that diamond in the rough the staff didn't recognize. The defense of Sodie was that "well, only Western Illinois offered him." I understand that, but did Dustin Maguire have any decent offers? Did Anthony Mitchell have any decent offers? I don't think you can base your whole recruiting strategy on finding those late-bloomers or hidden gems, but Sodie needed to do it a few times, yet he couldn't.

The current regime seems to be doing quite well in this respect. Certainly the Majerus name will open more doors than Sodie, but in the case of KMitchell and Cassitty, we got in early on those kids before bigger name programs started getting involved and it paid off.

Ace. No doubt getting in there early means alot. At the same time, early on goes so far. You need to not only be early but also make sure you sign guys with talent. Case in point (as you mention): DM. Even the best basketball minds overlook talent. Problems occur not only when you miss (by not recruiting a kid) but also when you miss a second time (by signing another guy who also turns out to be a miss). As I mentioned earlier, had Brad been a little more "ruthless" and "cold-hearted" and driven certain misses away, maybe he would still be here. No reward for being a nice guy. It all comes down to wins and losses.

[moytoy12]

Ace. No doubt getting in there early means alot. At the same time, early on goes so far. You need to not only be early but also make sure you sign guys with talent. Case in point (as you mention): DM. Even the best basketball minds overlook talent. Problems occur not only when you miss (by not recruiting a kid) but also when you miss a second time (by signing another guy who also turns out to be a miss). As I mentioned earlier, had Brad been a little more "ruthless" and "cold-hearted" and driven certain misses away, maybe he would still be here. No reward for being a nice guy. It all comes down to wins and losses.

Why would he have to drive anyone away? He always had scholarships saved.

[kshoe]

BBF, please continue to post any info you have. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us greatly appreciate your insight.

Agreed. Don't let a few rotten apples on the Billiken Board spoil this site for you.

[3star_recruit]

As I mentioned earlier, had Brad been a little more "ruthless" and "cold-hearted" and driven certain misses away, maybe he would still be here. No reward for being a nice guy.

There was no need to drive misses away. We never filled all our scholarships anyway.

Whoops: didn't see your post the first time moytoy.

[slu72]

Billy. When I say he "apparently was not all that good", I mean that good players usually get scholarship offers from good schools. Josh did not. Name the list of schools which offered Josh in the Fall of his Senior year in high school. Believe the list will be a rather short one with one of the "best" schools being WIU.

Did I see him play? The answer is no. If you saw him play and you thought he was a medium to high Div 1 talent, then many schools would benefit from your services. In reality, most Div 1 schools did not offer him so I don't think we can kick Brad and all of the other Div 1 coaches too hard. Sounds like he is the perfect example of a late bloomer, from a lesser known high school program who did not play on a high-level AAU. End of story. If SIUC or Missouri State, saw something and we didn't, then let the kicking begin. Last I checked, though, we will not win many games against XU by competiting with WIU for recruits.

The above sounds exactly like UB's recruitment of DM and AM. It wasn't like anyone was kicking in their doors to sign them. The thing about Harrelson is, he's a big. Bigs take a little longer than guards and wings to develop, unless they're Tyler Hansborough. You can't teach bulk and height. If UB had a little more Al Skinner in him, eg getting Smith and Dudley when everyone else passed on them, he'd likely still be here. Face it UB made a lot of passes and we'll sees on kids that could have helped. And he signed a few that will never help.

[Clock_Tower]

The above sounds exactly like UB's recruitment of DM and AM. It wasn't like anyone was kicking in their doors to sign them. The thing about Harrelson is, he's a big. Bigs take a little longer than guards and wings to develop, unless they're Tyler Hansborough. You can't teach bulk and height. If UB had a little more Al Skinner in him, eg getting Smith and Dudley when everyone else passed on them, he'd likely still be here. Face it UB made a lot of passes and we'll sees on kids that could have helped. And he signed a few that will never help.

72. You're right. I've thought about Josh and the fact that big men take longer to mature and develop. In that sense, I am less surprised that a big guy like him was more, IMO even though I have not seen him play - a "latebloomer". At the same time, big men are in great demand and every Div 1 coaching staff is well aware that big men often develop late. If you agree with this premise, then why did all the Valley schools, Ohio Valley schools, etc. all take a pass on him as well?

[Clock_Tower]

Why would he have to drive anyone away? He always had scholarships saved.

Moy and 3 Star. I said that a little tongue in cheek. I have read numerous negative posts about Brad and his failures (as a coach - recruiting, offensive/defensive schemes) but don't recall many negative about his personality as have been thrust against RM. Look where being a good guy gets you.

At the same time, while I prefer RM's approach to recruiting over Brad's (RM hates coming in second and prefers to cut his losses if he doesn't think the kid will choose SLU, RM uses every scholarship he can and would have even had the best walk-on SLU has ever had - PE, ...), Brad clearly stated on numerous occassions that he preferred not using all his scholarships for the reason that he always wanted 1 or 2 open each Spring to be able to land a JUCO or a transfer should one become available. My read on this, therefore, is that even if Brad had 11 on scholarship (2 available), he would be reluctant to drive off a player since he did not want to use these remaining 2 scholarships which, in Brad's mind, were being used and not available.

[billiken_roy]

would have even had the best walk-on SLU has ever had - PE

i think the luechtifeld boys are both far ahead of eckerle at this time in teh best walk on recruits in slu history.