Ticket Sales and Size of the Fetz

[kevinfootes]

David, you were the champion of the "smaller arena will create a bigger demand for tickets" buzz on the board. Do you think there will be more season tickets sold for next year compared to this past season? Ticket sales are lagging right now, but there is still time. I'm hoping there will be nothing but packed houses and an electric atmosphere in the new building.

[davidnark]

David, you were the champion of the "smaller arena will create a bigger demand for tickets" buzz on the board. Do you think there will be more season tickets sold for next year compared to this past season? Ticket sales are lagging right now, but there is still time. I'm hoping there will be nothing but packed houses and an electric atmosphere in the new building.

I have no idea how ticket sales are going, but if they aren't going well then the benefit of a smaller design is only magnified. I would much rather have an environment with a few hundred open seats rather than a few thousand. I never said that a smaller environment will increase tickets sales; I said it will increase the atmosphere at most games and create a "hot ticket" if the team has great success. I don't understand your point.

[cheeseman]

I have no idea how ticket sales are going, but if they aren't going well then the benefit of a smaller design is only magnified. I would much rather have an environment with a few hundred open seats rather than a few thousand. I never said that a smaller environment will increase tickets sales; I said it will increase the atmosphere at most games and create a "hot ticket" if the team has great success. I don't understand your point.

My guess is that the new season tix and Billiken Club membership rules are what have caused the dip in season tix sales so far - we all knew that would probably happen once the big tix cartels were broken up. Chris May was on with Frank and Rammer a day or two ago - not sure when - and he said that season tix were at 5k and that they had sold another 100 just that day. He expects that with student season tix purchases and the time between the start of the season that tix sales should be doing well. I did not hear the entire interview but I would assume SLU is expecting a big single tix sale once the schedule is released given that some will not want to join the Billiken Club who had been riding on the coattails of others. Actually, if they have 5k already signed up for season tix - May described them as deposits - then I would think that we should be close to our sales last year. I agree with David that the smaller arena will not increase tix sales but will create a better atmosphere and could cause the tix sales to be done at a faster pace if the team starts winning. It will be curious to see how many students buy season tix - how much do they cost?

[jp18]

I think the ticket sales are lagging some because they are pricing some people out. I know several people, including some long-time season ticket holders, who have been turned off by the price of the tickets.

[Billiken Rich]

I think the ticket sales are lagging some because they are pricing some people out. I know several people, including some long-time season ticket holders, who have been turned off by the price of the tickets.

The Bills are still the only season ticket in town that is remotely affordable. I'll be there in the green seats. Hopefull sales will be completely slack and they'll do away with the red section surcharge............

[bonwich]

The numbers are going to be deceiving -- I finally ponied up for Billiken Club membership last week. However, if I had continued to keep my dad's tickets, I probably wouldn't have been counted as a season ticket holder since I hadn't plopped down my "deposit" (we had no B Club membership for those seats). I'm guessing there are at least several hundred season ticket holders who are simply not going to join but will get season tix anyway.

PS I had a "business-as-usual" experience when I sent in my renewal and offered to donate a reasonably sizeable amount of bucks to jack up my point total. PM me if you'd like the details.

[kshoe]

David, you were the champion of the "smaller arena will create a bigger demand for tickets" buzz on the board. Do you think there will be more season tickets sold for next year compared to this past season? Ticket sales are lagging right now, but there is still time. I'm hoping there will be nothing but packed houses and an electric atmosphere in the new building.

Weren't you suggesting that SLU should have built a 13k sized arena or bigger? If it is a fact that we only sell 6k season tics next year, do you believe we would be better off in a 10k or 13k building?

[Adman]

This is one of my favorite, pet-peeve subjects.

Yes, the ticket prices are going up. Yes, a small building will be loud.

But a 10,700-capacity arena is much too small. Here's why.

1) Our current average attendance is around 9500. So we're only adding about 1,000 in capacity to the lackluster current attendance.

2) We are the only college basketball game in town with no NBA team

3) We are the #18 market in population in the US with a heavy Catholic population and others with fondness to the University

4) In the Spoonhour regime, with a team ranked roughly from 32-45 in USAToday poll, we were the #4 college basketball team in attendance in all of US, with a per game average of approximately 16,500. Yes, relative ticket prices were cheaper.

5) Again, in the same regime, we drew over 32,000 for Illinois and 25,000 for Missouri at the TWA Dome

6) A bigger arena with more people will be louder than a smaller arena with fewer people

7) While more expensive, the tickets will still be a value vs. Blues, Rams, etc.

Now we have Rick.

Our own building.

The best recruiting class in our history.

The future is up.

Are we so lacking in confidence in our future that we build a building 6,000 seats SMALLER than our average attendance 10 years ago?

If we were a small college town, I'd say OK with 10,000.

But few other universities can match the population size of St. Louis, single D-1 in town, no NBA team...and a PROVEN demand for the product (during spoon regime.) Are we saying that Rick can't at least develop the same excitement that Charlie did?

Very counterintuitive to me.

[slufanskip]

This is one of my favorite, pet-peeve subjects.

Yes, the ticket prices are going up. Yes, a small building will be loud.

But a 10,700-capacity arena is much too small. Here's why.

1) Our current average attendance is around 9500. So we're only adding about 1,000 in capacity to the lackluster current attendance.

2) We are the only college basketball game in town with no NBA team

3) We are the #18 market in population in the US with a heavy Catholic population and others with fondness to the University

4) In the Spoonhour regime, with a team ranked roughly from 32-45 in USAToday poll, we were the #4 college basketball team in attendance in all of US, with a per game average of approximately 16,500. Yes, relative ticket prices were cheaper.

5) Again, in the same regime, we drew over 32,000 for Illinois and 25,000 for Missouri at the TWA Dome

6) A bigger arena with more people will be louder than a smaller arena with fewer people

7) While more expensive, the tickets will still be a value vs. Blues, Rams, etc.

Now we have Rick.

Our own building.

The best recruiting class in our history.

The future is up.

Are we so lacking in confidence in our future that we build a building 6,000 seats SMALLER than our average attendance 10 years ago?

If we were a small college town, I'd say OK with 10,000.

But few other universities can match the population size of St. Louis, single D-1 in town, no NBA team...and a PROVEN demand for the product (during spoon regime.) Are we saying that Rick can't at least develop the same excitement that Charlie did?

Very counterintuitive to me.

9500 avg attendance seems high to me. Where did you get that number?

[brianstl]

This is one of my favorite, pet-peeve subjects.

Yes, the ticket prices are going up. Yes, a small building will be loud.

But a 10,700-capacity arena is much too small. Here's why.

1) Our current average attendance is around 9500. So we're only adding about 1,000 in capacity to the lackluster current attendance.

2) We are the only college basketball game in town with no NBA team

3) We are the #18 market in population in the US with a heavy Catholic population and others with fondness to the University

4) In the Spoonhour regime, with a team ranked roughly from 32-45 in USAToday poll, we were the #4 college basketball team in attendance in all of US, with a per game average of approximately 16,500. Yes, relative ticket prices were cheaper.

5) Again, in the same regime, we drew over 32,000 for Illinois and 25,000 for Missouri at the TWA Dome

6) A bigger arena with more people will be louder than a smaller arena with fewer people

7) While more expensive, the tickets will still be a value vs. Blues, Rams, etc.

Now we have Rick.

Our own building.

The best recruiting class in our history.

The future is up.

Are we so lacking in confidence in our future that we build a building 6,000 seats SMALLER than our average attendance 10 years ago?

If we were a small college town, I'd say OK with 10,000.

But few other universities can match the population size of St. Louis, single D-1 in town, no NBA team...and a PROVEN demand for the product (during spoon regime.) Are we saying that Rick can't at least develop the same excitement that Charlie did?

Very counterintuitive to me.

The size of the arena is intentionally small. If you limit the supply you can create a premium for what is available. People are willing to pay a higher price not to be left out. If you had 15,000 seats you would not be able get that. It is the same reason why most new baseball stadiums are smaller than the ones they have replaced. The harder a ticket is to get the more valuable it becomes.

SLU is not trying to get as many people as possible to go to games, but rather trying to get the maximum amount of revenue from the fans that will be purchasing season tickets.

[NextYearBill]

10,800 seats keeps a lot of haters out. Its gonna be a nice, cozy... blood thirsty atmosphere. Every time I have paid a lot to attend a sporting event I am that much more into the game. Watching a SLU game will not be like going to the movies anymore. If you are fortunate enough to be one of these 10K.... hopefully you won't be sitting on your ass yawning the whole time.

[willie]

I agree with adman.I believe that Chery and Brad both wanted a smaller building. Brad wanted a pit on the lines of Gonzaga. Cheryl was worried about her budget and being able to pay for a practice facility. Their flaw was they weren't here for the Spoon days. They could not invision what 19,000 fan could mean. Let's hope that Rick will create a program that the administration will regret their decision to go small,

[Clock_Tower]

I agree with adman.I believe that Chery and Brad both wanted a smaller building. Brad wanted a pit on the lines of Gonzaga. Cheryl was worried about her budget and being able to pay for a practice facility. Their flaw was they weren't here for the Spoon days. They could not invision what 19,000 fan could mean. Let's hope that Rick will create a program that the administration will regret their decision to go small,

No, they both could envision the 19,000 people. They just could not duplicate what Spoon did and ever make it a reality. We have talked at length about Brad. Regarding Cheryl, she did much better than Woolard but, most likely, did not do as good as Fr. Biondi and the Board of Trustees had hoped. I have no insight, but my guess is that Chaveitz, Novelly and that crowd probably did not want to deal with her.

Last I heard, the new arena will hold 10,600. Personally, I wanted 12,000 but not larger than that. Even at 12,000, that would not hold the 12,400 season ticket holders or the sell out crowds under Spoon. Keep in mind, by making tickets widely available on a game by game basis, we lose our home court advantage by allowing other school fans to come in and neutralize things. I was embarrased at SLU's poor attendance and Dayton's large attendance this year. Dayton's tickets were great tickets filling the entire corner where the teams entered and left the court. Had SLU Alumni organized an event at UD Arena, their seats would have been tucked away up high in Section 400 and thereby not be visible or audible from the Court. UD Arena, BTW, holds about 13,700.

Building too big of an arena also is not really worth it in that venues like NCAA Tournament games, Missouri Valley games, Mizzou/IL game would all be at the Scottrade anyway. Not so in many other cities. Since I mentioned Dayton already, Dayton has only one choice: UD arena.

[willie]

Whats done is done and it's kind of silly to argue about it but there is no reason we can't recapure the Spoon days. St. Louis like every city loves a winner. If Rick wins enough you won't be able to buy a ticket. Cardinal attendance is down because of the perception is that the team will be down and management doesn't really care. Start winning and the place will fill up again. Setting our size at 10,600 is like selling a stock when the market is down. There will be better days ahead and we won't be able to capture those dollars.

[bonwich]

Whats done is done and it's kind of silly to argue about it but there is no reason we can't recapure the Spoon days. St. Louis like every city loves a winner. If Rick wins enough you won't be able to buy a ticket. Cardinal attendance is down because of the perception is that the team will be down and management doesn't really care. Start winning and the place will fill up again. Setting our size at 10,600 is like selling a stock when the market is down. There will be better days ahead and we won't be able to capture those dollars.

Don't you read the papers or listen to KFNS, willie? Cardinal attendance is down because people are afraid of Highway 40 being closed.

[TEE]

Whats done is done and it's kind of silly to argue about it but there is no reason we can't recapure the Spoon days. St. Louis like every city loves a winner. If Rick wins enough you won't be able to buy a ticket. Cardinal attendance is down because of the perception is that the team will be down and management doesn't really care. Start winning and the place will fill up again. Setting our size at 10,600 is like selling a stock when the market is down. There will be better days ahead and we won't be able to capture those dollars.

you guys are missing the point.

first off the Cardinals have played THREE F##*^G GAMES and attendance is down? wait a minute schools not out, the weather sucks and all of a sudden the Cardinals attendance is down? Summer hasn't started yet and regional fans have yet to come to a game because we have a played a wopping THREE GAMES!

I think you forget that when spoon left the sports dollar here in STL was changing, the Rams got real good and those tickets went way up in price, The Cardinals raised ticket prices, added premium seats and built a new stadium and raised ticket prices again, won the penant twice - wining the word series once, etc, the Blues had some success and failures but still their ticket prices have gone up.

SLU on the other hand on the mid to late 90's had a nice niche' that was blown past when the three pro teams in town got really good.

people forget in 1994 there were no Rams games, the Blues were OK and the brewery was at odds with fans, Spoon arrived and filled a void with some good teams, Fall of 1995 arrives and there is now the NFL, the cardinals had a turnaround - six NLCS's, two penants, 1 champ, the blues won the Presidents trophy had some real good seasons, etc.

SLU became really mediorce, yes an affordable ticket, but who wants to see the little engine that could when down at the Dome you had some really explosive football.

Times change, there is competition for sports dollars.

A 10,600 seat arena, with a practice facility/support facilities fills SLU's need.

[NextYearBill]

owned

[Adman]

Lots of good comments, guys.

And before I respond, please know that I'm thrilled we have a new building that it is, by all accounts, one of the finest facilities in the country.

But here's where I differ:

1) the building was originally going to hold at least 13,500. the reason it was reduced had nothing to do with coziness. it was money. attaching the practice facility had to be fit into budget.

2) there is a pent-up demand for basketball in this city. we are a borderline NBA city. with the lower cost of fielding a top flight D1 college team (compared to NBA team), i think there is no reason the billikens couldn't be built into a very popular, big-selling -- and profitable -- property here. why? we've already done it 10 years ago with minimal marketing. spoon built the product. and they came.

3) yes, smaller building will keep the competition's riff raff out to some degree. but per A10 rules, a portion of the tickets still have to be held out for other team anyway. as i understand it, home team cannot completely cut other school out.

4) yes, the new baseball stadiums have gotten smaller. their luxury suites, however, have increased. the cardinals, for example, have twice the number of luxury suites as old Busch did. that money is kept by the home team, not shared as the rest of the ticket revenue is. but hockey and basketball arenas, like Scottrade, have not gotten smaller. the name of the game is building the facility to maximize revenue. the more fans in the building, the more concessions, the more parking, the more licensed merchandise and the higher the fees that can be charged for corporate sponsorship and in-arena signage. we already know (roughly) the demand in st. louis for a moderately successful D1 program. the billikens are leaving way too much money on the table.

5) yes, cards and rams (and now blues again) have influenced the spend of the local sports dollar. however, i ask you: regardless of how the cardinals finish this year or the blues or rams start next year, if RM goes 10-0 to start the season next year, what kind of buzz do you imagine would occur? i don't say this to predict that the bills will go 10-0. only saying: just win. if the entertainment product is there, people will hang from rafters and find a way to pay for it. it'll probably affect local movie theatres more than other teams' ticket sales.

in the past, success was hard to maintain. charlie finally wore out trying to recruit without the commitment necessary.

slu has finally committed to a big name coach, their own facility. as predicted, this allows us to build better product via better recruits. now with a chance to capitalize on the size of our market and product demand, we go backwards. the former powers-that-be lack the vision to dream...or at least remember...

i'm not a finance person and have never looked at the numbers. so quite possible that the bean counters looked at it and said for anything 15,000 and over, it would never pay for itself in ongoing operation (even with fundraising in place for a good piece of the construction costs.) but i can say that there would be demand for the product, a more imposing facility for the competition to play in, an even more impressive facility for high school prospects to tour...and more revenue.

[cheeseman]

I agree with adman.I believe that Chery and Brad both wanted a smaller building. Brad wanted a pit on the lines of Gonzaga. Cheryl was worried about her budget and being able to pay for a practice facility. Their flaw was they weren't here for the Spoon days. They could not invision what 19,000 fan could mean. Let's hope that Rick will create a program that the administration will regret their decision to go small,

They did not care - if necessary they can always double the price of a tix and will be way ahead.

[brianstl]

They did not care - if necessary they can always double the price of a tix and will be way ahead.

Exactly

[courtside]

SLU built its Arena and size based on cost. That's how much they had.

It's awfully short-sighted to be discussing first year season ticket sales. Why not wait a few years, or perhaps until one of the new Coach's recruits plays a game other than the walk on pre-med kid? SLU will get it going, and it'll take a couple of years to do it. SLU would be wise to not price people out. SLU has no leverage when it comes to pricing and taking care of its customers compared to more competitive programs in recent memory.

Let's wait a few years until the program improves(or doesn't) and then discuss those things. First year tix sales, ....lol....wow.

[slufanskip]

SLU built its Arena and size based on cost. That's how much they had.

It's awfully short-sighted to be discussing first year season ticket sales. Why not wait a few years, or perhaps until one of the new Coach's recruits plays a game other than the walk on pre-med kid? SLU will get it going, and it'll take a couple of years to do it. SLU would be wise to not price people out. SLU has no leverage when it comes to pricing and taking care of its customers compared to more competitive programs in recent memory.

Let's wait a few years until the program improves(or doesn't) and then discuss those things. First year tix sales, ....lol....wow.

I don't get this idea we should have built a bigger arena. You hit it dead on, we built the best arena we could for the money we had, and we had a lot harder time coming up with that money than we thought we would. We could have made it bigger and spent another 20, 30, 40 million more and continued to wait. If someone would have ponied up the money for a 13,000 seat arena we'd have one ... they didn't ... we don't. Pretty easy to spend someone else's money

[House]

I don't get this idea we should have built a bigger arena. You hit it dead on, we built the best arena we could for the money we had, and we had a lot harder time coming up with that money than we thought we would. We could have made it bigger and spent another 20, 30, 40 million more and continued to wait. If someone would have ponied up the money for a 13,000 seat arena we'd have one ... they didn't ... we don't. Pretty easy to spend someone else's money

That's right. Would you rather have a 13,000 seat arena with 2nd class amenities, no offices and possible no practice facility or a first class 10,600 arena that houses the entire athletic dept and has all the bells and whistles to wow recruits who come to visit.

To me there is no question which choice is better for the long term health of the program.

[kevinfootes]

Weren't you suggesting that SLU should have built a 13k sized arena or bigger? If it is a fact that we only sell 6k season tics next year, do you believe we would be better off in a 10k or 13k building?

Well, perhaps if there were more seats available they wouldn't be gouging people so much. There were plenty of people on here saying that the newer, smaller arena would lead to BIGGER crowds. I don't recall one poster on here saying he expected ticket sales to drop off. Let's hope that doesn't happen. I don't think it will, but they're not in good shape at moment.

[kevinfootes]

The size of the arena is intentionally small. If you limit the supply you can create a premium for what is available. People are willing to pay a higher price not to be left out. If you had 15,000 seats you would not be able get that. It is the same reason why most new baseball stadiums are smaller than the ones they have replaced. The harder a ticket is to get the more valuable it becomes.

SLU is not trying to get as many people as possible to go to games, but rather trying to get the maximum amount of revenue from the fans that will be purchasing season tickets.

This is an untruthful spin, IMO. SLU was planning to build a 13K seat arena until they realized that they screwed up and didn't account for necessary ammenities. Practice facilities have been the key for decades now, as SLU continued to struggle with the West Pine gym turning off recruits. SLU didn't plan for 10K until they ran out of money.