Knollmeyer & Relphorde

[Clock_Tower]

Last night AK and MR each played played 5 minutes. While not a lot of minutes, it does show that RM has not forgot about/given up on them. We all agree that SLU will be that much better if they can provide relief to BH and BE and keep LM at the 3. What more can RM really do? AK looks lost out there and MR cannot play the 4 really effectively. Not an excuse, but AK is only a sophomore and MR is a freshman. Last year, Brad lost all confidence in AK and refused to play him for several games in a row. Hoping RM does not do the same with the guys. So far, RM has not and is playing them.

Believe comparisons to DP, though, are off-base. Don't get me wrong, I am not a big DP fan and readily recognize that his outside shot, or lack thereof, as well as his size, make him a real liability for us. At the same time, when DP makes a mistake, opposing guards are more likely to get an easier shot (can shoot over/around DP) but not necessarily score. In contrast, when AK and MR make a mistake, the opposing forward gets a layup and do score, make a foul and send their guy to the free throw line or give up an offensive rebound/two points.

Also, DP has certain strong skills which benefit the team: he is one of our better dribblers and does a decent job passing and not making turnovers. (No dribble penetration and true point guard prowess like Marquee Perry and hopefully K Mitchell). In contrast, neither MR nor AK appear to have any strong skills - such as a really good defense (Chris Sloan earned playing time/starting status for his defense while adding little to none on the offensive side) or rebounding. Last night, neither AK nor MR attempted a shot or free throw, had an assist or made a rebound. DP always attempts a shot or two.

Further, DP is a senior and adds some leadership skills while AK is a sophomore and MR is a freshman and neither appear to be leaders at this point.

With LM still playing some at 4, there really are not that many minutes to share at the 4 and 5 position. BE gets the most minutes - 25 minutes with 4 fouls last night and BH got 13 minutes before fouling out with 5 fouls. 13 minutes from your center - against Pacific - is just not acceptable but that is another topic. Sure I would like to see BE and BH play together more. If last night is any indication, though, this could have only happened for 13 minutes. Many on this Board are concerned about conceding short term success for long term gain. Is that what we want? Pull LM from the 4, play the kids and see what happens? While AK and MR may personally benefit, the team most likely would suffer both in the short term (this year) and most likley in the long run (beginning next year) when Reed, Thompson and Conklin start playing and force both to the bench anyway.

In short, AK and MR need to step up now. Their time in practice, as well as their limited minutes during games, give them the opportunity to increase their own playing time. There is still time and RM has not forgot about them.

[kmbilliken]

The one thing AK did seem to be able to do is set picks. Now if he can just add some rebounding and defense to that he would deserve minutes. Still too early to tell with MR, but I think he needs to make it or break it at the 4. I just don't see the quickness or offense to play the 3.

AM certainly appears to be athletic, but doesn't seem to have a feel for what he can do out there. Right now he's too prone to turning it over on offense.

I think DB could certainly help at this point. Hopefully he'll be able to contribute soon.

[slufanskip]

The one thing AK did seem to be able to do is set picks. Now if he can just add some rebounding and defense to that he would deserve minutes. Still too early to tell with MR, but I think he needs to make it or break it at the 4. I just don't see the quickness or offense to play the 3.

AM certainly appears to be athletic, but doesn't seem to have a feel for what he can do out there. Right now he's too prone to turning it over on offense.

I think DB could certainly help at this point. Hopefully he'll be able to contribute soon.

So after playng his first 44 minutes as a freshman, you've assessed his career. That's pretty good. There are not many freshman that make an immediate impact. Right now it is hard to assess his quickness as he still seems to be thinking a lot out there and his movements are very calculated. Are you aware that in his first 44 minutes including last night he has 18 pts while shooting 58% from the field along with 7 boards and I think it was 2-3 steals. Not a bad first few games. We need to give the freshman time to develop. Yes we would like him to step in and go for 10 and 7 immediately, but it's not realistic. It's not his fault that we are short of inside depth, let him learn and grow at a normal pace. He may end up a 3 or he may end up a 4, time will tell.

[kshoe]

So after playng his first 44 minutes as a freshman, you've assessed his career. That's pretty good. There are not many freshman that make an immediate impact. Right now it is hard to assess his quickness as he still seems to be thinking a lot out there and his movements are very calculated. Are you aware that in his first 44 minutes including last night he has 18 pts while shooting 58% from the field along with 7 boards and I think it was 2-3 steals. Not a bad first few games. We need to give the freshman time to develop. Yes we would like him to step in and go for 10 and 7 immediately, but it's not realistic. It's not his fault that we are short of inside depth, let him learn and grow at a normal pace. He may end up a 3 or he may end up a 4, time will tell.

Statistics can be used to prove anything. For instance, if you were to subtract the Houston Baptist game (a semi-D1 team that doesn't even count in our RPI) MR's numbers would look more like this: 26 minutes played with 4 points on 2 of 5 shooting and 0 rebounds. So basically, at this point MR has proven he can play well against D2 teams, but little else.

Skip, you have always been the king of giving young guys a few years to develop but whether you are ready for it or not, our coach does not have the same attitude. His history at Utah suggests that if he has a freshman in his program and he decides the frosh isn't good enough to provide significant help in a couple years (not just be the 7th or 8th off the bench as a senior) he will not make it to his sophomore year. I don't know what this means for MR, but I think its fair to say a bunch of our younger players have a lot of proving to do for RM.

[jjray]

So after playng his first 44 minutes as a freshman, you've assessed his career. That's pretty good. There are not many freshman that make an immediate impact. Right now it is hard to assess his quickness as he still seems to be thinking a lot out there and his movements are very calculated. Are you aware that in his first 44 minutes including last night he has 18 pts while shooting 58% from the field along with 7 boards and I think it was 2-3 steals. Not a bad first few games. We need to give the freshman time to develop. Yes we would like him to step in and go for 10 and 7 immediately, but it's not realistic. It's not his fault that we are short of inside depth, let him learn and grow at a normal pace. He may end up a 3 or he may end up a 4, time will tell.

Agree with Skip on Relphorde that he has shown some level of ability at the 4 ... but temper my enthusiasm for his stats when keeping in mind that he scored 14 of the 18 against Houston Baptist (I believe). Relphorde is a converted wing who I hope can grow into contributing at 4. He looks taller than BE to me. Has some hops. If he gets stronger, I see no reason Marcus can't help us at 4 in the future. Right now, he's a work in progress.

[slufanskip]

Statistics can be used to prove anything. For instance, if you were to subtract the Houston Baptist game (a semi-D1 team that doesn't even count in our RPI) MR's numbers would look more like this: 26 minutes played with 4 points on 2 of 5 shooting and 0 rebounds. So basically, at this point MR has proven he can play well against D2 teams, but little else.

Skip, you have always been the king of giving young guys a few years to develop but whether you are ready for it or not, our coach does not have the same attitude. His history at Utah suggests that if he has a freshman in his program and he decides the frosh isn't good enough to provide significant help in a couple years (not just be the 7th or 8th off the bench as a senior) he will not make it to his sophomore year. I don't know what this means for MR, but I think its fair to say a bunch of our younger players have a lot of proving to do for RM.

Until we start signing 4 and 5 star caliber players we are going to win with the majority of our starters being Jr's and Sr's.

Of course our young players have a lot to prove.

I'm the king of not being an idiot and thinking I can determine who will be a good player 2 years down the road after seeing them play all of probably 20 minutes. Marcus has some skill, it just seems logical to let him develop before a bunch of guys who besides the fact they watch a lot of basketball don't really have much of a clue about the game decide is career at SLU is on the way to being over.

[JaleJarr]

Until we start signing 4 and 5 star caliber players we are going to win with the majority of our starters being Jr's and Sr's.

Of course our young players have a lot to prove.

I'm the king of not being an idiot and thinking I can determine who will be a good player 2 years down the road after seeing them play all of probably 20 minutes. Marcus has some skill, it just seems logical to let him develop before a bunch of guys who besides the fact they watch a lot of basketball don't really have much of a clue about the game decide is career at SLU is on the way to being over.

I'm with you on this Skip. The last thing you want to develop is a reputation of discarding your players after 2 years.

[kshoe]

Until we start signing 4 and 5 star caliber players we are going to win with the majority of our starters being Jr's and Sr's.

Of course our young players have a lot to prove.

I'm the king of not being an idiot and thinking I can determine who will be a good player 2 years down the road after seeing them play all of probably 20 minutes. Marcus has some skill, it just seems logical to let him develop before a bunch of guys who besides the fact they watch a lot of basketball don't really have much of a clue about the game decide is career at SLU is on the way to being over.

I'm still reading KMBilliken's post and trying to figure out what set you off so much. Basically, he said he thought Marcus had potential at the 4 but not the quickness to play the 3. How dare he make such an assessment! How dare any billikenboarder ever make an assessment on a freshman without waiting to see how they perform as juniors and seniors.

[jjray]

I'm still reading KMBilliken's post and trying to figure out what set you off so much. Basically, he said he thought Marcus had potential at the 4 but not the quickness to play the 3. How dare he make such an assessment! How dare any billikenboarder ever make an assessment on a freshman without waiting to see how they perform as juniors and seniors.

I can only speak for myself.

>>In contrast, neither MR nor AK appear to have any strong skills ... Pull LM from the 4, play the kids and see what happens? While AK and MR may personally benefit, the team most likely would suffer both in the short term (this year) and most likley in the long run (beginning next year) when Reed, Thompson and Conklin start playing and force both to the bench anyway. ... In short, AK and MR need to step up now.<<

Admittedly, this is pulling out parts of the post but it is the gist of what I read: i.e., AK and MR have to produce immediately or they are a waste at SLU as we overrecruited them with the incoming class. A harsh assessment, especially in the case of Relphorde who, as Skip has mentioned, has played 44 minutes in his college career to date and has been converted from wing to PF. I for one do not want to rely upon the vaunted 2008 recruiting class to solve all our problems up front. Freshman take time to develop. They have Willie Reed listed at 195. Sodie would redshirt him. I think we'll need one of, if not both, of Knollmeyer and Relphorde to contribute next year despite the arrival of the recruits.

[kshoe]

I can only speak for myself.

>>In contrast, neither MR nor AK appear to have any strong skills ... Pull LM from the 4, play the kids and see what happens? While AK and MR may personally benefit, the team most likely would suffer both in the short term (this year) and most likley in the long run (beginning next year) when Reed, Thompson and Conklin start playing and force both to the bench anyway. ... In short, AK and MR need to step up now.<<

Admittedly, this is pulling out parts of the post but it is the gist of what I read: i.e., AK and MR have to produce immediately or they are a waste at SLU as we overrecruited them with the incoming class. A harsh assessment, especially in the case of Relphorde who, as Skip has mentioned, has played 44 minutes in his college career to date and has been converted from wing to PF. I for one do not want to rely upon the vaunted 2008 recruiting class to solve all our problems up front. Freshman take time to develop. They have Willie Reed listed at 195. Sodie would redshirt him. I think we'll need one of, if not both, of Knollmeyer and Relphorde to contribute next year despite the arrival of the recruits.

That was from the original post by Clock Tower. Skip was responding to KMBilliken and included KM's post in his reply.

[slufanskip]

That was from the original post by Clock Tower. Skip was responding to KMBilliken and included KM's post in his reply.

my reply was meant for the whole thread and a previous one that said that RM was looking to get rid of MR. So really it's just the tone the last couple of days. KM's post wasn't bad, but I'm curious as to how many minutes he has seen MR play to decide he isn't quick enough to play the 3. My bad, I should have been clear. There are a few people on this board who are pretty quick to dismiss a player. It's silly

[billiken_roy]

my reply was meant for the whole thread and a previous one that said that RM was looking to get rid of MR. So really it's just the tone the last couple of days. KM's post wasn't bad, but I'm curious as to how many minutes he has seen MR play to decide he isn't quick enough to play the 3. My bad, I should have been clear. There are a few people on this board who are pretty quick to dismiss a player. It's silly

skip it is not the posters trying to get rid of players as much as wondering why the likes of a statistical non producer like polk plays 35+ minutes almost every nite and a very ordinary freshmen like eckerle plays 20 some minutes every nite and then the three bigger players like mitchell, relphorde and knollmeyer rarely see the floor.

if the top seven players were all contributing mass quantities of points, rebounds, etc i wouldnt have a problem. but basically you got lisch, liddell, meyer, eberhardt and husak doing it all. i would think that if there werent other motives more would play under those circumstances.

[Majerus Magic]

skip it is not the posters trying to get rid of players as much as wondering why the likes of a statistical non producer like polk plays 35+ minutes almost every nite and a very ordinary freshmen like eckerle plays 20 some minutes every nite and then the three bigger players like mitchell, relphorde and knollmeyer rarely see the floor.

if the top seven players were all contributing mass quantities of points, rebounds, etc i wouldnt have a problem. but basically you got lisch, liddell, meyer, eberhardt and husak doing it all. i would think that if there werent other motives more would play under those circumstances.

How is Eckerle an ordinary freshman? I think he has exceeded all expectations and is playing very well aside from a few freshman mistakes. Just because Mitchell and Relphorde are more athletic and bigger does not mean they are better players.

-Dwayne Polk will always start because he is a favorite of Majerus. He is a vocal leader who plays his heart out on offense and Defense. Defense is far more important to Majerus than offense.

- Knollmeyer is a stiff. Why do we need him out there?

[kmbilliken]

my reply was meant for the whole thread and a previous one that said that RM was looking to get rid of MR. So really it's just the tone the last couple of days. KM's post wasn't bad, but I'm curious as to how many minutes he has seen MR play to decide he isn't quick enough to play the 3. My bad, I should have been clear. There are a few people on this board who are pretty quick to dismiss a player. It's silly

I've seen him play the same amount as anyone else whose been to all the home games and watched the tv game. That's why I said it's still too early to tell. However, from what I've seen I don't think he'll be a three. Time could prove me wrong, but that's my opinion now. I haven't dismissed him as a player. He's got the body to be a 4. I think he has long term potential at that position and hope he hits the weights and works on his post moves.

[billiken_roy]

How is Eckerle an ordinary freshman? I think he has exceeded all expectations and is playing very well aside from a few freshman mistakes. Just because Mitchell and Relphorde are more athletic and bigger does not mean they are better players.

-Dwayne Polk will always start because he is a favorite of Majerus. He is a vocal leader who plays his heart out on offense and Defense. Defense is far more important to Majerus than offense.

- Knollmeyer is a stiff. Why do we need him out there?

how is he not an ordinary freshmen? an extraordinary freshmen is someone that comes in and makes a major impact. you are taking my comments the wrong way and making it worst. paul has done a good job but he isnt anything special at this point. do you compare him to lisch or liddell as freshmen? i dont. he is having more of a freshmen impact like chris sloan or maybe luke meyer had. and while that deserves playing time it doesnt deserve the lions share of freshmen minutes imo.

[TheA_Bomb]

I think Polk plays because we are in dire need of a true PG and he is the closet thing we have.

I like what I have seen from Eckerle he is already contributing more than Diener or Troy Robertson did in their Sr. year.

[Majerus Magic]

how is he not an ordinary freshmen? an extraordinary freshmen is someone that comes in and makes a major impact. you are taking my comments the wrong way and making it worst. paul has done a good job but he isnt anything special at this point. do you compare him to lisch or liddell as freshmen? i dont. he is having more of a freshmen impact like chris sloan or maybe luke meyer had. and while that deserves playing time it doesnt deserve the lions share of freshmen minutes imo.

Roy, again, how does he not deserve the lion share of the minutes? The only justification that you have is that "they are bigger and more athletic" Awesome. I know some really big and athletic guys and they suck at basketball. Until they start to show improvement they don't deserve playing time based on their size.

[booyaa87]

I think RM will be a decent PF before it is all said and done. He is extremely athletic and seems to have good basketball sense. Right now he is missing the muscle but that will come over the next year or two.

Giving up on a guy because he can't make major contributions as a freshman is really really dumb.

Will Daniels from Rhode Island and Ahmad Nivins from St. Joe are both preseason all conf 1st team selelctions and were less than spectacular as frosh.

[MusicCityBilliken]

I think RM will be a decent PF before it is all said and done. He is extremely athletic and seems to have good basketball sense. Right now he is missing the muscle but that will come over the next year or two.

Giving up on a guy because he can't make major contributions as a freshman is really really dumb.

Will Daniels from Rhode Island and Ahmad Nivins from St. Joe are both preseason all conf 1st team selelctions and were less than spectacular as frosh.

Do you mean MR instead of RM?

[NH]

Are you guys kidding me? We are not even ten games into the season and some people on here are writing off our freshman. "MR's not quick enough to play the three" Can you really tell after seven games. Maybe hes a little slow picking up the system but that doesnt mean he wont get there. You guys act as if you can do a detailed scouting report on him. Not Many frosh can score 14 points in 19 minutes (divison I or II or III or NAIA) If RMS played him game after game it shows that he has a little faith in him.

Also what did many posters hero Luke Meyer do in his first seven games. I do remember having a great game late in the season when he scored, you guessed it, 14 points against IPFW. We took that as a sign to mean great things were to come. Now that we have a stricter coach we write it off as being a fluke against a lower level opponent. (Have you SEEN IPFW lately.

[Billikan]

how is he not an ordinary freshmen? an extraordinary freshmen is someone that comes in and makes a major impact. you are taking my comments the wrong way and making it worst. paul has done a good job but he isnt anything special at this point. do you compare him to lisch or liddell as freshmen? i dont. he is having more of a freshmen impact like chris sloan or maybe luke meyer had. and while that deserves playing time it doesnt deserve the lions share of freshmen minutes imo.

Roy, I do not understand why you have to rip a player like PE to try to make a point. The tone of your post was negative to Paul and in my view we are extremely lucky to have him soaking up minutes in a good way. The bench guys, AK, AM and MR have done very little to earn minutes and they are dangerous to play in a close game because they seem to make a lot of mistakes. In my view, AK has miles to go and MR is completely unproven. AM is a great athlete but it may take him a year or two to calm down and understand the game is very different from high school. Paul has earned every minute he has played with solid defense, good fundamentals and often some big shots. He is miles ahead of the others in understanding what this coach wants to see from his players on the floor. Let's hope the others start to "get It" but I for one do not see it happening with AK.

[thetorch]

Eckerle has been by far the best frosh out there. But these other guys have to get some playing time to make an impact.

Against Detroit AK got like 2 minutes. He was so nervous out there he looked like he was gonna wet himself. You have to get guys comfortable being on the court. That only comes with regular playing time.

[moytoy12]

Roy, I do not understand why you have to rip a player like PE to try to make a point...Let's hope the others start to "get It" but I for one do not see it happening with AK.

Do as I say not as I do?

Regardless, I think Roy was pointing out the obvious. PE is not an extraordinary freshman in the general sense; however, given that PE was thought of as a walk-on, the amount he is contributing might seem extraordinary to us Billiken fans.

I don't think it's a slam and i don't think it is incorrect.

[booyaa87]

Do you mean MR instead of RM?

Yep, damn, the entire day of football turned my brain to mush.

[Guest 3pt.daddy]

how is he not an ordinary freshmen? an extraordinary freshmen is someone that comes in and makes a major impact. you are taking my comments the wrong way and making it worst. paul has done a good job but he isnt anything special at this point. do you compare him to lisch or liddell as freshmen? i dont. he is having more of a freshmen impact like chris sloan or maybe luke meyer had. and while that deserves playing time it doesnt deserve the lions share of freshmen minutes imo.

YOU need to open your stiff mind and give AK the opportunity to play and have some impact. DP should be playing as one of two guards and not three. WE NEED SIZE to set picks, rebound, and move the ball inside for easier shots. AK will be a very good player before his career is over at SLU. RM will eventually figure this out EBERHARDT is very weak at defense RM WILL eventually see this also. HE is LAZY and needs to have HIS minutes CUT. YOU are also banking on the next tall freshman class to have an impact. LET'S wait and see. I am not STIFF, I am open minded. DP can't have any impact getting 2-pts. and 1- rebound playing 25-30 minutes. I don't care what any body says about that. it is what it is. there are cheerleaders and the band and the crowd to motivate. we need players to play.