Bryan Burwell advocates SLU's return to the MVC.

[Bay Area Billiken]

To paraphrase Former President Reagan, well there they go again. One thing these media guys don't seem to get: If SLU actually returned to the MVC, how long would it be before that MVC Tournament gets moved out of St. Louis? I can't imagine the good citizens of Carbondale, Springfield, MO, et al. allowing that MVC Tournament to be played year after year some 22 blocks from the SLU campus if SLU is a participant.

Is this really being considered? Or is this just more media guys writing columns?

[thetorch]

We are not joining the Valley.

If we did watch the local perception of the league suddenly drop.

And say goodbye to St. Louis hosting the tourney.

[Schasz]

I actually liked the premise of his article which was what seemed like a good idea at the time has not turned out so good. He also stated that he was in favor of the move to the A10 when SLU made it and now even he has changed his mind.

No question that the A10 has been passed by the MVC, and the MVC is a hot commodity today. However, let's just say someone other than Xavier wins the A10 Tourney and I believe we all concede that Xavier is more than likely in the Dance...then the A10 would have 2 teams in the Big Dance this year in certainly a down year for the league. On the MVC side of the ledger we know Creighton and SIU are in, but who is the sure fire 3rd team on Selection Sunday. After Butler losing last night we know the Horizon will have two teams. It will be a very nervous day for that potential 3rd MVC team on Sunday.

This A10-MVC thing could all turn around as soon as next year, and then what will the BM's and Burwell's write about. The one area that the MVC does have a decided advantage over the A10 is in their leadership...Elgin is heads and tails above Bruno. The conference schools in the A10 should take a serious look at replacing her as in a word she sucks.

[davidnark]

I thought it was a fair, well-written article. No one anticipated that the A-10 would fall off the map in terms of TV exposure and excitement for the league tournament. Burwell acknowledges this, and openly admits that he is judging the situation based upon the facts this season.

The issue I struggle with is what is the real upside of most MVC schools? Sure, Carbondale has had a fantastic run this year, and Wichita State had a wonderful fun last year. However, is it realistic to expect these schools (or any other MVC school except for maybe Creighton) to ever become a regular in the top 15 and to compete for blue chip recruits year in and year out? UMass, Xavier, Rhode Island, Temple, LaSalle, Charlotte (am I missing anyone?) are all programs that have been there and done that and have the potential to do it again. SLU's hope and expectation, whether or not realistic, is to achieve that kind of success. To the extent conference success is cyclical, the upside of the A-10 and its premier programs is still probably much higher than the MVC. In fact, notwithstanding all the MVC hype this season, five days from now there is a very good chance that the MVC and the A-10 send the exact same number of teams to the big dance. The real issue that needs to be addressed is the management of the A-10. The bottom teams need to be held accountable for their scheduling, facilities, financial commitments, etc., and the TV contract and conference tournament situations need to be fixed.

[huzzah]

When we joined tha A-10, the commisioner's performance was under review. Also, the league was examining the lower eschelon schools. Nothing has been done. However, even if changes are made I don't believe this is the conference for us. The schools are too distant and the tournament location this year is remote. Dreaming - What I would like to see is Dayton, X, and SLU join the MVC. Geographically this would be a compact league. There would be a balance between state and private schools, and none of the schools have big football agendas. Natural rivalries for SLU would be in abundance w/ Bradley, Mo State, Southern IL, IL State, Dayton, X, Evansville, and Creighton. A question arises on the tournament location, but tickets are allocated, so I don't believe SLU would necessarily dominate attendance. Travel expenses during the year would be reduced and our little 10,000 seat arena will be sold out. I live downtown and the MVC loves St. Louis. The hotels and restuarants were doing good business. I ate @ St. Louis Fish Market and it was bustling. The MVC fans love Metro Link and they could ride free from the hotel to Scott during the eligible time zone. With the new casino going in I think it will take a lot for the tournament to move. Our band and a full compliment of cheerleaders could attend. I agree with Bryan that at the time this appeared to be a good decision, but it is not so attractive now. Sometime in the future there was to be a merger with bb schools in the Big East, but who knows if or when that may occur. And if it does happen what do we have in common with eastern schools such as Georgetown, St. John's, Seton Hall, etc. Three Big East schools we would have good rivalries with are Marquette, DePaul, and Notre Dame. My crystal ball is murky. I just can't see the future. I am reaching for the Windex. I will return at a later date.

[billiken_roy]

to any chance of ever forming the midwest private league.

we have to bond together with dayton and xavier.

[billiken_roy]

fantastic summary david.

it just amazes me how soon every one loses perspective of long term both historical and in the future.

just three years ago, the a-10 was the worlds baby of the month with two teams in the elite 8. the mvc only got two teams in the tourney because northern iowa got hot.

if anything, now is the time for biondi and levick to be meeting with dayton and xavier to make sure we are all on the same page. solidify that alliance.

[billiken_roy]

anything that involves dayton, xavier saint louis and creighton together would be very good. that said, to do make that happen in the mvc likely means booting a team or two or three from the mvc. the last thing that needs to happen is another disasterous 14 team conference. 12 is too many imo.

[brianstl]

And that league still hasn't reached the level the A-10 did.

Here is what is going to start to hurt the MVC...coaching changings. Not losing the best to bigger jobs, but when replacing the fired and resigning coaches at the lesser schools. When these school try to hire new coaches one thing the new coaches will ask for is scheduling relief. These new coaches will want to rack up some victories early and try to jump start the program.

This will lead to those schools scheduling weaker OOC games. Which leads to the busting up of Doug Eglin's magic RPI formula. Good-bye bloated RPIs.

[AJ]

I agree with Nark's thoughts on this. True, the A-10 has experienced 2 down years and the MVC has experienced 2 up years, but the situation could very easily reverse itself in a year or two. Recall 4 years ago the A-10 had the number one ranked team in the country at this point in the season and everyone was declaring them the next Big East. The MVC will never be able to sustain status as a major longterm because all the schools are in relatively small media markets and all located in states where they will NEVER be the marquee program. As great a year as SIUC has had, for example, they will never replace U of I as the state's primary program. From a recruiting standpoint big-time players are never going to get as excited about bus trips to Cedar Falls as they are flying to New York, Philly, and DC. Agreed, we need to demand a different TV package and other changes if we are going to stay long-term. If we eventually do leave the A-10, I am still not sure that the MVC is the answer for us. A better alternative is to look towards a long-term association with Dayton, Xavier, Charlotte and perhaps teams like DePaul and Marquette when the football schools in the Big East eventually push them out. Meanwhile, we need to continue to schedule SIUC, Mo. State and other Valley schools and keep all our options open.

[Bay Area Billiken]

The MVC has 3 coaching changes at the bottom right now: Illinois State, Indiana State, and Evansville.

I'm a bit torn on whether SLU should go back to the MVC. The A-10 has big problems with the TV situation, the conference tournament situation (likely to be played this year in deserted obscurity in Atlantic City), and the schools at the bottom. Travel is an issue for SLU, as evidenced by the grounding of the Band for the A-10 Tournament. That scored some points for the MVC for me.

MVC supporters will call me "arrogant" for typing this, but the MVC has a number of 3rd and 4th tier state schools with different academic visions than SLU. This is not arrogance; this is the truth. The MVC is in smaller markets.

I agree that SLU should be forming a firm alliance with Dayton and Xavier. Hopefully, that has already happened or is happening.

Overall, I thought Bryan Burwell wrote a good article. But from the standpoint of St. Louis itself, not just SLU, I don't think the media is giving consideration to that MVC Tournament leaving St. Louis for say a Kansas City if SLU rejoins the MVC. Look at that reaction out of Springfield this season after the SLU-Mo. State regular season game. With an NCAA Tournament bid on the line year after year, I still think those Valley schools would eventually demand the movement of that post-season tournament. Now if the Valley really wants SLU back, perhaps SLU could make some contractual demands of its own, such as the MVC Tournament stays in St. Louis.

I wish I had a crystal ball. My prediction is that the A-10 in the long term will prove to be more successful than the MVC, and that the MVC's time at the top of the mid-major mountaintop will be coming to an end. But the A-10 is such an unwieldy, divergent league with a lot of problems, some of them seemingly self-imposed (TV, conference tournament).

[davidnark]

Within the next several months, the MVC is expected to either sign a long-term contract with the Scotttrade Center of jump ship to KC's new arena. Keep in mind that the MVC is headquartered in downtown St. Louis at 18th and Chouteau and there is a long history of holding the tournament here, so I would be surprised if KC wins out. Once that contract is signed, the MVC isn't going to move the tournament for a long time regardless of who joins or leaves the conference. Further, by the time SLU could make any switch, the Scotttrade Center will no longer be SLU's home court.

I am not advocating for a move to the MVC, just pointing out that it is unlikely any move by SLU would impact the location of the conference tournament in the foreseeable future.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I did read that Kansas City was making a push for the MVC Tournament for the new arena being built there.

Kansas City is also going after the Pittsburgh Penguins hockey team.

But from the standpoint of St. Louis, those huge crowds this year at the MVC Tournament have to help the cause of keeping that tournament at Scottrade Center.

[Pistol]

Anyone who still thinks SLU belongs in the MVC should be hit repeatedly on the temple with a tack hammer. It makes no sense.

It gets rid of the fixed neutral court site for the MVC tournament and neutral headquarters for the league, for that matter. It completely counteracts SLU's mission to prove itself as a national university, and just entrenches us in the midwest, killing exposure outside a 400-mile radius. Part of the strategic move to the A10 was to gain more attention from east-coast students, a part of the country SLU has not recruited well from and wants to build. It puts a team in one of the 20 largest markets in the nation in a conference with teams from small-to-medium-sized midwestern cities. In the markets represented, the men's basketball team is THE show in town, whereas SLU basketball is several rungs down from the biggest show in town, so we don't have that naturally passionate community fan base. The A10 has a lot of teams in similar situations - large markets with a lot of other sports to choose from - and this was yet another part of the strategic move to the A10.

The final reason I will give for now, and there are plenty more, is that the conferences won't stay as they are for long. Anyone who thinks they will is an ignoramus; the conferences shift constantly. The move to the A10 puts us in the best position for the next conference fallout. We don't want to be stuck smack in the middle of the MVC when it's time to realign again. Someone mentioned before that we needed to be with teams like Dayton and Xavier, who make sense as conference rivals in so many ways.

What our great P-D writers don't seem to get is that this move to the A10 is not permanent. The university, AD, and coaches never saw it as such. It was a strategic move for the time being. The conference is down, yes, and it unfortunately coincides with the best years the MVC has had in its current format. These things are cyclical, as is the nature of sports. Look at the programs that make up the A10 and look at those in the MVC; the historical success is not even close. It's night and day. And trust me, the MVC is on the way down after this year. SIU will stay strong, and Creighton is always the same, but that conference is losing virtually all of its player strength after this year, graduating all the best players.

Burwell broke my heart with this one. I always liked him, but this issue is obviously a hot button for me. It's too bad sportswriters' jobs are dependent upon writing the hot topics of the time, the flashes in the pan, rather than looking at the big picture and thinking long-term. Have any of them bothered to ask anyone at SLU WHY we made this move? I would just like to see the other side of the story presented.

[billiken_roy]

pistol, a very good prsentation.

i want to comment on your last two sentences though:

"Have any of them bothered to ask anyone at SLU WHY we made this move? I would just like to see the other side of the story presented."

the question i have is why hasnt saint louis university been on the attack of the issue? our sports information and public relations departments prove their inefficieny by letting this issue get to this point. a real corporate public relations and media liason would have never let this issue get to this point where the most impassioned defenses come from message board anonomous posters. imo this illustrates what i have been preaching that saint louis university lacks the infrastructure to ever be a big time athletic department.

[Pistol]

I agree. A true investigative journalist would seek out this angle before spouting off, but we can't count on that. It should have been clear from the start, and that is on SLU's people to do. I heard the reasoning for the A10 move a lot from people around there when it happened, but they never made it publicly clear. I don't think it would cause any bad blood with the A10 to say that we're happy to be there, and this also puts us in a great long-term position as an institution and athletic program.

[GOPBilliken]

Big Ten HQ's are in Chicago...home of...Northwestern. I don't think people think much on this board. I realize NU is in Evanston, so it's like Wash U in relation to St. Louis. Kind of city, kind of suburb. I think the Valley has no other choice...where would they move to, Springfield, IL?? Moline?? Cedar Rapids??

[Box and Won]

The MVC would be foolish to leave St. Louis - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The city and the conference have been great for each other. The MVC is in the process of trying to build a new headquarters building on the city-owned parking lot directly south of the Scottrade Center, which would be PERFECT (nobody parks on that lot anyway). My guess is that any talk of KC is just posturing on the part of the MVC. The city needs to step up and make it happen though. If Frank Viverito and the Sports Commission are involved, I'd feel pretty good about our chances.

Also, I'm not sure why everyone seems so certain that the MVC tournament would not be played in St. Louis if we were a member of the MVC - the A-10 Tournament has been played in Philly and Dayton prior to this year's debacle, the Big East Tournament is played on St. John's home court, I just saw the Colonial Tournament played in Richmond - home of VCU, etc. Keep in mind that in a year, Scottrade will no longer be our home - it would be a neutral court that just happens to be in our home city.

[Battlecat455]

I agree as well. As an alum, I'm annoyed that the Ad's office and the SID allow negetive reporting, particularly from that blowhard BM, to go by without response. I find myself defending the program to those that would like to see SLU succeed but have no direct allegiance to the University. Of course, this is a duty I impose on myself, but what the Hell does the SID spend his doing? I sincerely do not believe things are as bleak as they are often portrayed to be, but you would never know that from the resounding quiet on West Pine.

[Box and Won]

Speaking of that, Cheryl is going to be on Bernie's show today.

[courtside]

>I thought it was a fair, well-written article. No one

>anticipated that the A-10 would fall of the map in terms of

>TV exposure and excitement for the league tournament.

>Burwell acknowledges this, and openly admits that he is

>judging the situation based upon the facts this season.

>

>The issue I struggle with is what is the real upside of most

>MVC schools? Sure, Carbondale has had a fantastic run this

>year, and Wichita State had a wonderful fun last year.

>However, is it realistic to expect these schools (or any

>other MVC school except for maybe Creighton) to ever become

>a regular in the top 15 and to compete for blue chip

>recruits year in and year out? UMass, Xavier, Rhode Island,

>Temple, LaSalle, Charlotte (am I missing anyone?) are all

>programs that have been there and done that and have the

>potential to do it again. SLU's hope and expectation,

>whether or not realistic, is to achieve that kind of

>success. To the extent conference success is cyclical, the

>upside of the A-10 and its premier programs is still

>probably much higher than the MVC. In fact, notwithstanding

>all the MVC hype this season, five days from now there is a

>very good chance that the MVC and the A-10 send the exact

>same number of teams to the big dance. The real issue that

>needs to be addressed is the management of the A-10. The

>bottom teams need to be held accountable for their

>scheduling, facilities, financial commitments, etc., and the

>TV contract and conference tournament situations need to be

>fixed.

This is all very accurate. What I would add, is that Bruce Weber happened to be SIU 's coach and happened to go another regional school after, and U of I and happened to get to the NCAA title game shortly after leaving. It also happened to be in St. Louis, and writers and media find stories and articles to write about, and Weber was interesting and likeable to the media. What if Weber coached a far away school, or even let's say hypothetically, Purdue, and what if that team made a Final Four in say New Orleans....would the STL media coverage have been the same? Would perception all around be what it is now, ...for the MVC, for SIU? The MVC tourney is covered well because it is in St. Louis. It's the Patty Viverito(Assistant MVC Commissioner for many years) and Frank Viverito(President of the STL sports commission who gets all of those college events etc...to St. Louis) show. These two are very good at their jobs.

[StLouBlue]

>MVC supporters will call me "arrogant" for typing this, but

>the MVC has a number of 3rd and 4th tier state schools with

>different academic visions than SLU. This is not arrogance;

> this is the truth. The MVC is in smaller markets.

As an MVC supporter, I don't think that is an arrogant statement, I think most would agree the state schools in the MVC are the ones without bigtime football and seen as below others within their state. The private schools in the MVC, especially Bradley & CU are pretty similar to SLU on an undergraduate level to me. It is just that SLU is trying to achieve a more national recognition while those in the MVC seem satisfied with regional recognition at this point.

>I agree that SLU should be forming a firm alliance with

>Dayton and Xavier. Hopefully, that has already happened or

>is happening.

This is probably the key to the whole move to the A10, establishing our relationship with X & Dayton and maybe St Joes & Charlotte if a more eastern type league forms. I don't think anyone thinks it is ideal to be in the current 14 school A10, the bottom dwellers are too far down at this point.

As far as the MVC tourney moving, I know the CU fans and probably the WSU fans would like to see KC get it or at least in a rotation. I guess Des Monies with a new arena might also want into the mix. Maybe even Indy could get into the mix if schools were added like X & Dayton to the MVC. I don't expect the MVC tourney to move from St Louis, if SLU were back in the MVC the schools might push for a rotation type thing. I doubt Elign would let it happen, but if Elign were to leave who knows.

By the way the MVC next year will start using the Family Arena as their neutral site for their WBB tournament. I can see this moving to SLU's new arena eventually to keep things more downtown though.

[Battlecat455]

How about a report from someone available to listen?

[StLouBlue]

>What our great P-D writers don't seem to get is that this

>move to the A10 is not permanent. The university, AD, and

>coaches never saw it as such. It was a strategic move for

>the time being.

I agree with your first point that the move to the A10 is not a permanent move. I don't think the University, AD or coaches have ever made a statement about this though and they shouldn't. If SLU wants to maintain good relations in the A10 they have to publicly support the A10. I think SLU working to make the A10 a better league is probably the best thing that could happen. The bottom teams have to get better or be encouraged to find another conference to move to, the A10 would be a much better league if about 4 schools left.

>The conference is down, yes, and it

>unfortunately coincides with the best years the MVC has had

>in its current format. These things are cyclical, as is the

>nature of sports. Look at the programs that make up the A10

>and look at those in the MVC; the historical success is not

>even close. It's night and day. And trust me, the MVC is

>on the way down after this year. SIU will stay strong, and

>Creighton is always the same, but that conference is losing

>virtually all of its player strength after this year,

>graduating all the best players.

I agree things are often cyclical, but I am not ready to say the MVC is on its way down. The programs in the MVC are probably stronger now than ever before as far as infastructure and money and attendance. While several very good seniors are graduating in the league, there is still a lot of talent on the rosters and coming in with their recruiting classes. While I think the A10 should be improved next year, I expect the MVC to still be the higher rated conference between the 2.

[NashvilleBilliken]

What time is Bernie's show and what station does it come on? I'll listen if it's streaming.