Last Years UAB Game

[billikenfan05]

I was watching the UAB game from last year that i tivoed and i noticed that IO was knockin' down mid range jumpers like it was nothing. My question is who are we expecting to make up for that

[ACE]

Johnson can knock down mid-range jumpers. I hope Tommie would be able to knock some down from the 3 position.

[cheeseman]

We did not win with him so it is a moot point - we simply need to find other ways to score if someone can not provide type of scoring for us.

[Scoop]

If SLU plays motion with a high-low setting, Ian, JJ, and VN can all hit the mid-range. Obi is supposed to have touch as well. We'll be fine.

[kevinfootes]

I.O. had some bigs games last year and put some come consistent numbers. I was pretty critical of him, particularly in the way he performed in the clutch. In all fairness, he really wasn't supposed to be the go-to guy when the season started. What really upset me last year was that the team was so thin behind Reggie and Tom. Ian showed a lot of spark as the season progressed. I look for him to be better this year, especially since the A10 big men are not as tough overall as the old CUSA.

I'm also concerned about who is going to score this year. I see upside to Ian, but the rest of the team will have to improve dramatically and they'll have to rely on true freshmen. Hey, I like the tough defenseive approach of Brad, but they need to score more than 50 points/game to have a chance at even .500 this year. I'm not sure how you can predict a team that will average around 60 per game next year unless you're sure that uproven freshmen will contribute significantly.

[Taj79]

Look out .. some will same its doom and gloom .. so be it.

The first few answers to this riddle are JJ, Tommie, Ian, Newbourne and Obi with Tommie and Obi both freshmen and Obi coming off a knee injury taht has even a respected tsuegnekillib talking about a possible redshirt year. Now he's knocking down jumpers. I'm a little confused as to whichit is because jumpers knocked down in street clothes didn't count last time I checked.

Ian averaged 6.9 points per game last year. Vas'Shun scored at a 3.9 ppg pace. JJ a whopping 2.7. Together that's 13.5 ppg which is only 1.7 ppg slightly ahead of Izik's 11.8. Yeah, yeah ... I know, if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullsh*t and if that fails use statistics.

Izik and Reggie combined for 246 BASKETS last year. In a SLO-MOTION type of offense. With Reggie out and hurt a lot. I think the question is legitimate. I also think the answers are entertaining. Pure conjecture. The "what-are-you-smoking" category kind.

But you know what .. these five guys with the addition of some from Polk, some from Lisch, some from Meyer and some from Brown and some from Drejaj are going to have to be the answer. I realize we have no other options. I am hopeful, but I am not real optimistic.

No returning shooter. No returning rebounder. And a whole bunch of wings and prayers. We shall see.

[ACE]

>Look out .. some will same its doom and gloom .. so be it.

>

>The first few answers to this riddle are JJ, Tommie, Ian,

>Newbourne and Obi with Tommie and Obi both freshmen and Obi

>coming off a knee injury taht has even a respected

>tsuegnekillib talking about a possible redshirt year. Now

>he's knocking down jumpers. I'm a little confused as to

>whichit is because jumpers knocked down in street clothes

>didn't count last time I checked.

>

>Ian averaged 6.9 points per game last year. Vas'Shun scored

>at a 3.9 ppg pace. JJ a whopping 2.7. Together that's 13.5

>ppg which is only 1.7 ppg slightly ahead of Izik's 11.8.

>Yeah, yeah ... I know, if you can't dazzle them with

>brilliance, baffle 'em with bullsh*t and if that fails use

>statistics.

>

>Izik and Reggie combined for 246 BASKETS last year. In a

>SLO-MOTION type of offense. With Reggie out and hurt a lot.

> I think the question is legitimate. I also think the

>answers are entertaining. Pure conjecture. The

>"what-are-you-smoking" category kind.

>

>But you know what .. these five guys with the addition of

>some from Polk, some from Lisch, some from Meyer and some

>from Brown and some from Drejaj are going to have to be the

>answer. I realize we have no other options. I am hopeful,

>but I am not real optimistic.

>

>No returning shooter. No returning rebounder. And a whole

>bunch of wings and prayers. We shall see.

Of course the answers are conjecture. So what? It was a very simple question - Who can knock down the mid-range jumpers. What is so "entertaining" about the answers? I mentioned JJ as a guy that could knock down the mid-range jumper. Even JJ's harshest critics would agree that he has demonstrated an ability to hit that shot. Now you can say Johnson isn't a great defender or rebounder, but that's off the subject of the thread - which is mid-range jumpers. I have seen Tommie play about a half dozen times and he has also shown an ability to hit mid-range, so that's why I mentioned his name. Of course, it's "conjecture" at this point whether he will be able to do it immediately at the next level. Are we not allowed for "conjecture" on a message board? Maybe Coach should just cancel the season because Taj79 believes all the answers at this point are "conjecture" and the "what are you smoking kind." Why even play the games.

[Scoop]

Seriously Taj, It wasn't thier job last year to knock down the mid-range. IO and Reggie were taking most of the shots. Our motion O will be more upbeat this year and Obi would not even be in STL if he didn't possess these kind of skills.

[kshoe]

it will likely be largely in part to contributions from Tommie and Kevin. We've been told by those that saw them play a bunch in highschool that they were better than any current Billiken. Reports from the summer scrimmages indicate Kevin is healthy and Tommie is considerably better than his highschool days.

It stands to reason that both of these two will contribute significantly to the success of our team next year. If they disapoint, the team will disapoint. If they suceed, we will succeed. Its that simple. The "realists" or "negative" people will tell you freshmen can't do it but I choose to believe these two aren't normal freshmen and will be as good as advertised. This of course, is conjecture, but realisitcally any predictions from any team in the country in the middle of August are based on a lot of conjecture.

p.s. Ian average about 10 points a game once he was named a starter. Barring injury, he will start this coming year so use that as your basis for estimating Ian's contributions.

[kevinfootes]

It's pretty hard to say things like "I saw this kid play against Hazelwood West...he's better than anybody on the Bills...he's ready for Cincy and Marquette."

I hope all of the freshmen do well. It's just hard to come into D1 basketball and average more than 10 points/game. I think Ian will probably average around 10-12/game. SLU needs somebody else to average in that range, plus 2-3 more guys around 7-9 ppg.

[kshoe]

"I saw KL play Shaun Livingston heads up and he more then held his own." or "TL has been playing very well on a team with 8 high d1 propsects that plays primarily teams with only d1 signees".

These are the type of quotes we've seen here for the past two years. If the people that said these are wrong then we are in for a long season. If they are right though, all the naysayers are going to realize that talented freshmen CAN do quite well in today's watered down college basketball.

Its all conjecture though!

[3star_recruit]

Xavier's Stanley Burrell and Fordham's Bryant Dunston and Marcus Stout averaged well over double figures as freshmen. None of them were ranked in the top 200 out of high school. Skillwise, I think our freshmen are just as qualified to score double figures as their freshmen. I've got my fingers crossed.

[billikenmetz]

And Shuan Livingston told him "another year of Prep School wouldn't hurt," as he put on his Nike-endorsed shoes and watch that costs more than a SLU tuition. I'm sure Shuan kicked his ass.

[tseugnekillib]

kshoe,....how about the others who stated that they wanted to see KL actually "do it" against players that were older and more experienced than what he was facing in high school.

Both KL and TL are talented and may well average 10pts per game, along with good assist and rebound numbers. As 3-star stated, other freshman have played well in the A-10....why not KL and TL. If I was a betting man, and I am, I would wager that they approach expectations.

While KL and TL have to play near expectations, all others Billikens have to be improved players for a 16-17 win season. Time will tell!

[cheeseman]

Lets look at this from a practical position - Avg. 10 pts a game by a freshman is not an impossible task - given that DP and Ian will be getting a lot of attention from the defense, why would it be so un heard of for KL and TL to avg. 10 pts? Just because they are freshmen - nonsense. Will they avg 10 pts - who knows but I would not rule it out - all you have to do is hit one three and couple of other baskets a game along with 3-4 FTs a game - would only require a 4 of 10 shooting night and that is not something that would be considered unheard of.

[Billiken Rich]

It's been a long while since I expected any where near 10 a game from a freshman. Luke, JJ, Ian, Drejaj, Danny, Bryce, Dwayne (was hoping maybe) were not impact recruits generating high, immediate, expectations. Tommie and Kevin are. I'm not setting the bar at double figures but it's certainly doable. They'll get the attempts.

[kevinfootes]

Only a few freshmen have averaged more than 10 PPG in recent years:

Hughes

Highmark

Claggett

Bonner

Douglass

Gray

Winfield and Irvin just missed. I can't remember if Orlando Stewart was a freshman or a juco.

Granted, if you have a good team freshmen won't play much. So it's been done about 6 times in 20+ seasons. I'm not saying it can't or won't be done, I just wouldn't bank on it.

[Taj79]

.... and I know if I say Saint Louie Ewey ain't a normal basketball school, the naysayers on that topic will jump me. But we ain't.

What were Douglas and Gray ... freshmen when? In 1982? For arguments sakes and simple math, let's say 1984. Which means 20 years of freshmen coming in and out of this school. We have what, six freshmen over that time average 10 ppg? And two were sets as Douglas & Gray and Claggett & Highmark were frosh at the same time. So over those 20 years, we've had three years in which freshmen averaged 10 ppg.

Now, I will say that the time is ripe for Liddell and Lisch to do it. Freshmen have to lead when there is nothing on the shelves to bank on. And that is the case this year. But I think it is a huge responsibility to assume and only time will tell if they can handle it. And let's bar injury into that mix as well.

[slu72]

would agree that it is a lot of pressure to place on TL and KL...but it's the hand we're holding. It would have been nice to have one returning player like a Mo Jeffers or Marque Perry to be the go to, but instead the go to is going to have to be discovered this year. My guess is it will be a different go to every game.

[ACE]

>"I saw KL play Shaun Livingston heads up and he more then

>held his own." or "TL has been playing very well on a team

>with 8 high d1 propsects that plays primarily teams with

>only d1 signees".

>

>These are the type of quotes we've seen here for the past

>two years. If the people that said these are wrong then we

>are in for a long season. If they are right though, all the

>naysayers are going to realize that talented freshmen CAN do

>quite well in today's watered down college basketball.

>

>Its all conjecture though!

Conjecture is not allowed by Taj, so stop it. Crying about rebounding and other potential weaknesses is.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Well, while it remains to be seen what will happen, I think there's a pretty good chance that Tommie Liddell and Kevin Lisch will both average at least 10 points per game. However, I expect Liddell to get at least 10 per game but don't expect Lisch to do so. Kevin is still coming off of a knee injury which will limit his speed and explosiveness somewhat, so it won't be as easy for him to create shots some games. And then there will be some games when his jumper isn't falling. I think he'll average just short of 10.0, but I wouldn't mind being wrong.

How many players will average double digits for this team? There were two each of the last two years. I don't know if we can expect much more than that this year. The Bills scored about 63 points per game two years ago and around 56 last year. In 2003-04 (63 ppg), there were almost three double-figure scorers (Chris Sloan fell 10 points short, because he shot poorly during the postseason tourneys -- though he led the team in rebounding during that stretch). I think that the Bills may approach that this year: around 60 ppg and two double-digit scorers with one just short of 10.0. It's just that I expect Ian Vouyoukas to be the player joining Liddell scoring in double figures.

Now, the 2006-07 season is the one I'm looking forward to. That year the Bills should be able to score 70 per game and have three or four double-figure scorers (if three, then at least one with an average above 15).

[cheeseman]

Taj - was the 3 pt shot in when Douglas and Gray were here?

[tseugnekillib]

According to the 2004-5 A-10 media guide, there were 42 freshmen across the 12 teams. I'm guessing a couple of Dayton's 7 freshmen were walk-ons, bringing the actual/scholarship A-10 freshmen number closer to 40.

According to the A-10 2004-5 post-season stats, the top 30 scorers averaged between 20.3 pts per game and 10.6 pts per game. Of those 30 top scorers 4 were seniors, 15 were juniors, 6 were sophs and 5 were freshmen.

The top five freshmen scorers in the 2004-5 A-10 season were:

Bryant Dunston - Fordham - 14.9 pts per game

Marcus Stout - Fordhham - 13.6

Stanley Burrell - Xavier - 12.7

Mark Tyndale - Temple - 12.5

Darnell Harris - LaSalle - 11.3

Botton line, only 15% of the A-10 freshmen averaged 10.6 pts per game or more in 2004-5. Can KL and TL average 10 pts per game or better?

Yes, those two have a real good shot at getting to that level or higher, in fact, I would wager that they do just that.

However, according to the A-10 stats, not a whole lot of freshmen can get a 3pter, a couple of 2's, and 3 of 4 free throws every night out.

Sounds easy enough....but.....

[3star_recruit]

"However, according to the A-10 stats, not a whole lot of freshmen can get a 3pter, a couple of 2's, and 3 of 4 free throws every night out."

I'd be interested in seeing what percentage of A-10 freshmen were starters. I'd guess that it was about 1 in 5, or 20%.

[tseugnekillib]

3-star, I think you are on to something tying the points to minutes played (starters).

Four of the five freshmen I listed above made the A-10 all-rookie team. To average 10-15 pts per game for the season, I guessing they averaged 26-30 minutes per game. I'll research that next week as I am heading out of town for a few days.