kshoe Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 If we are voting at this point, I LOSE. I guess what it comes down to is the fact that I don't view GG or JM as top quality A-10 players and I'm much more hopeful about the ability of our freshmen than the great majority of posters. As long as one side is right we'll be good, however, if GG and JM meet my expectations and RA, TL and MC meet your expectations, then we are headed to the NIT. (I'm not expecting that) If its NIT you or anyone else are worried about, I concern myself to injuries to players like Evans, McCall or Jett. Quite frankly, I'm not sure we have a replacement for DE. The health of the seniors will go a lot further to determining our success than the performance of the 7-9 guys in the rotation (whether they are freshmen or Barnett, Grandy or John) will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SShoe Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Based on what they have done in two years in the program, what gives you any basis at all for thinking they will be significantly improved? JM earned few minutes and GG only started for a reason not associated with his skill, but rather his energy. I think it would be great if you all are right and I am wrong about both of them, but again, what leads you to believe they will be much improved, other than hope and some unfounded belief that all players improve every year. Having watched both of them I'm going to take the position that "I'm from Missouri and need to be shown." Call it a leap of faith. The Show Me State motto is stupid. We need more risk-taking in this state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bauman Posted August 16, 2013 Author Share Posted August 16, 2013 Neither player (Meyer or Sloan) did anything of consequence their first two seasons while they were playing on mediocre squads, yet your overall impression of those two is very positive. Yet, you seem to have a low opinion of a couple of our guys because they have not made major contributions while playing on two NCAA tournament teams. That seems to be an odd way of looking at things. Ace, apples vs oranges. Different time/different level of teammates/different level of opponents. Also, falling into the "that's not what I said category," I think I said they were "ok." If that's "very positive" then so be it. Sloan did improve over his four years, but that's because he came to SLU as a inside post player and needed to completely change his game and develop a outside shot, which he worked hard to so. (He was better as a SR than as a FR.) Chris's situation does not apply to GG or JM-they both are continuing to play position wise as they had previously. Regarding my comments on Luke, if you view "LM improved very little" as very positive I guess we just have a different definition of "very positive." Having said what I just did, I still view them overall as making a positive reflection on the SLU basketball program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 DE 32 MM 31 JJ 30 RL 26 AM 22 GG 12 JB 19 JM 14 TL 10 RA 2 MC 1.5 Walk ons 0.5 Total 200 As much as I like the "Ashanti Warrior" thing, I think Lancona gets more minutes than Reggie. TL just fits into the vacated Ellis spot so nicely it is hard to ignore. Despite having the year in prep school, I think RA will still be still raw and need to learn. I also think that JB will get a few more minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bauman Posted August 16, 2013 Author Share Posted August 16, 2013 Call it a leap of faith. The Show Me State motto is stupid. We need more risk-taking in this state. Thanks, finally someone fesses up that there is no basis in fact to expect significant improvement from GG or JM. While I certainly hope to see it and as I've stated, I hope I'm wrong in my expectation, I kinda want more than a "leap of faith." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SShoe Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Thanks, finally someone fesses up that there is no basis in fact to expect significant improvement from GG or JM. While I certainly hope to see it and as I've stated, I hope I'm wrong in my expectation, I kinda want more than a "leap of faith." I was being facetious. Reason 1: Bigs rarely produce much in their first few years, particularly on top 20 teams. Reason 2: Bigs also tend to make their biggest leaps between their sophomore and junior seasons. Reason 3: Granted it was against weak comp, in the 5 games prior to the concussion, Manning averaged 6.4 ppg in roughly 12 minutes of play and showed a soft touch, good post moves, and an ability to finish around the basket. After the concussion, he never really saw the floor again, sans a few minutes here and there. While Manning struggled in those later games, I firmly believe that he is more like the player we saw during the 5-game stretch than the one we saw in conference play. Anybody who has ever played competitive basketball past the 8th grade can tell you it's not easy to play comfortably in just 2 minutes of action. Reason 4: Maybe Glaze is not the most skilled 4 we've ever had, but his strength, energy, and rebounding ability has considerable value, which I think you're discounting a little too much. Not every player on the floor needs to be a big scoring threat. If the frosh are better than these 2 and get more minutes, great, the future is bright. But I see an expanded role for Manning, with a similar (not diminished) role for Glaze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Ace, apples vs oranges. Different time/different level of teammates/different level of opponents. Also, falling into the "that's not what I said category," I think I said they were "ok." If that's "very positive" then so be it. Sloan did improve over his four years, but that's because he came to SLU as a inside post player and needed to completely change his game and develop a outside shot, which he worked hard to so. (He was better as a SR than as a FR.) Chris's situation does not apply to GG or JM-they both are continuing to play position wise as they had previously. Regarding my comments on Luke, if you view "LM improved very little" as very positive I guess we just have a different definition of "very positive." Having said what I just did, I still view them overall as making a positive reflection on the SLU basketball program. You also said they made "above average contributions to the program." Different time indeed. GG and JM have been in a lineup much more difficult to crack than what Sloan and Meyer faced. BTW, look at Grandy's numbers last year compared to the numbers of Meyer and Sloan as sophomores. How much playing time do you think the sophomore version of Meyer and Sloan would have gotten on last year's team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Thanks, finally someone fesses up that there is no basis in fact to expect significant improvement from GG or JM. While I certainly hope to see it and as I've stated, I hope I'm wrong in my expectation, I kinda want more than a "leap of faith." But your leap of faith belief that 3 freshmen are going to be significant contributors is OK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 But your leap of faith belief that 3 freshmen are going to be significant contributors is OK? Ballgame! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b.hayes Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Ballgame! Bazinga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 You also said they made "above average contributions to the program." Different time indeed. GG and JM have been in a lineup much more difficult to crack than what Sloan and Meyer faced. BTW, look at Grandy's numbers last year compared to the numbers of Meyer and Sloan as sophomores. How much playing time do you think the sophomore version of Meyer and Sloan would have gotten on last year's team? they would have gotten grandy and manning's and barnett's minutes since they are both better than all three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bauman Posted August 17, 2013 Author Share Posted August 17, 2013 You also said they made "above average contributions to the program." Different time indeed. GG and JM have been in a lineup much more difficult to crack than what Sloan and Meyer faced. BTW, look at Grandy's numbers last year compared to the numbers of Meyer and Sloan as sophomores. How much playing time do you think the sophomore version of Meyer and Sloan would have gotten on last year's team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bauman Posted August 17, 2013 Author Share Posted August 17, 2013 You also said they made "above average contributions to the program." Different time indeed. GG and JM have been in a lineup much more difficult to crack than what Sloan and Meyer faced. BTW, look at Grandy's numbers last year compared to the numbers of Meyer and Sloan as sophomores. How much playing time do you think the sophomore version of Meyer and Sloan would have gotten on last year's team? It really is difficult to have a disagreement on this Board when those on the other side of an issue, either can't read complete sentences or just intentionally misstate things. Ace, I hate to correct your grammar, but in this case your mistake resulted in either an accidental or intentional mis-statement of what I wrote. To be fair, your first line above should have ended to the program...." or if you were not intending to mislead or quote out of context, "to the program, INCLUDING how they represented themselves as individuals/students...." Your feeble attempt to use my positive feelings about two of the better examples of SLU sports is a real reach to support your contridictory position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM28 Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 @JonRothstein: Saint Louis freshman Tanner Lancona will remind people of Cody Ellis. 6-7 forward will be in Billikens' rotation. Stretch 4. This isn't the first time Rothstein has sung Lanconas praises. It will be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 @JonRothstein: Saint Louis freshman Tanner Lancona will remind people of Cody Ellis. 6-7 forward will be in Billikens' rotation. Stretch 4. This isn't the first time Rothstein has sung Lanconas praises. It will be interesting. I feel like I may have seen a tweet saying he was golfing with tanner at some point. If so, he's probably not a neutral observer. Hopefully he's right of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 they would have gotten grandy and manning's and barnett's minutes since they are both better than all three. That is simply not true. I remember watching Chris during the early part of his career trying to figure out why he was getting so much playing time. The answer was simple, there just wasn't much talent on some of those Bills teams. Thankfully, the picture is most definitely different now with the program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyJumpUp Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 they would have gotten grandy and manning's and barnett's minutes since they are both better than all three. you make me sick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Why? Because i think two former 4 year starters were better players than our current substitutes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bauman Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 you make me sick Very professional and extremely mature post! While this topic has gotten way off track, I don't think we'll ever see the contributions CS made on the court from GG and/or JM. In addition, I think the senior JB will be pretty much the equal of the senior LM, but then I guess all of the above is just my speculation. No need for you to get sick about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Very professional and extremely mature post! While this topic has gotten way off track, I don't think we'll ever see the contributions CS made on the court from GG and/or JM. In addition, I think the senior JB will be pretty much the equal of the senior LM, but then I guess all of the above is just my speculation. No need for you to get sick about it. It is impossible to compare them using traditional stats because of numerous factors (different minutes per game, different eras, different coaches, different players surrounding them). I'm not sure what you mean by "contributions" but if you mean PPG, RPG, etc. then I suspect you are right. Sloan played so much more than either Grady or Manning will have played that his "contributions" were much greater. Does that mean Sloan was a better basketball player? I'm not so sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 You also said they made "above average contributions to the program." Different time indeed. GG and JM have been in a lineup much more difficult to crack than what Sloan and Meyer faced. BTW, look at Grandy's numbers last year compared to the numbers of Meyer and Sloan as sophomores. How much playing time do you think the sophomore version of Meyer and Sloan would have gotten on last year's team? It really is difficult to have a disagreement on this Board when those on the other side of an issue, either can't read complete sentences or just intentionally misstate things. Ace, I hate to correct your grammar, but in this case your mistake resulted in either an accidental or intentional mis-statement of what I wrote. To be fair, your first line above should have ended to the program...." or if you were not intending to mislead or quote out of context, "to the program, INCLUDING how they represented themselves as individuals/students...." Your feeble attempt to use my positive feelings about two of the better examples of SLU sports is a real reach to support your contridictory position. Spare me the lecture... You are missing the point. I started out by comparing the basketball contributions of Sloan and Meyer, two players who did very little on mediocre teams to the basketball abilities of Grandy, JM and Barnett. A lot of good posts have been made showing really how little Meyer and Sloan did their first two seasons, even though they each got quite a few minutes as sophomores. Did they get those minutes because they were productive players as sophomores or because those teams had few other options? I think the numbers tell the story. You concede they weren't great players on the court, but then shift the argument to how "they respresented themselves as individuals/students." Ok, if that is now what we are comparing, don't you think GG, JM and JB also fit into that tradition? JB, good student, involved with AIA... had a great relationship with Joshua Brown. Seems like a neat kid and a great teammate. I don't know much about JM but he talked a LOT about academics when he picked SLU. And Grandy, you should have heard Coach Harriman talk about the type of person GG is during a postgame show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB73 Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 DE 32 MM 31 JJ 30 RL 26 AM 22 GG 12 JB 19 JM 14 TL 10 RA 2 MC 1.5 Walk ons 0.5 Total 200 As much as I like the "Ashanti Warrior" thing, I think Lancona gets more minutes than Reggie. TL just fits into the vacated Ellis spot so nicely it is hard to ignore. Despite having the year in prep school, I think RA will still be still raw and need to learn. I also think that JB will get a few more minutes. Reggie 2 mpg? LOCK over of the year. He'll get much, much more time than that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HusakAttack Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 DE 32 MM 31 JJ 30 RL 26 AM 22 GG 12 JB 19 JM 14 TL 10 RA 2 MC 1.5 Walk ons 0.5 Total 200 As much as I like the "Ashanti Warrior" thing, I think Lancona gets more minutes than Reggie. TL just fits into the vacated Ellis spot so nicely it is hard to ignore. Despite having the year in prep school, I think RA will still be still raw and need to learn. I also think that JB will get a few more minutes. Do you remember how raw Cody was his freshmen year? If Lancona is like that, he will assuredly not crack the rotation this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Reggie 2 mpg? LOCK over of the year. He'll get much, much more time than that... Looking back at Grandy's freshman year stats, I guess we need to make a distinction between minutes per game played by the player and minutes per game played by the team. Obviously, these numbers are per game played by the team. Grandy averaged 3.2 per game, but only played in 9 games total. He would have been less than 1 minute per team game played. I just think Reggie is raw and will take a year to develop and get the system down. I'm optimistic he will develop into a great player, but I don't expect huge contributions from him his freshman year. Do you remember how raw Cody was his freshmen year? If Lancona is like that, he will assuredly not crack the rotation this year Cody averaged 28 minutes per game for the 1/2+ season he was here his freshman year. I understand that you are probably saying that team was not as deep as this years will be and therefore Cody played despite being raw. I think 10 mintues/game is reasonable. Basically, I agree with the poster who said they expect a 9 man rotation (8 non-freshman and 1 of the freshman). I am saying I expect that 1 freshman will be Lancona. My argument for him over Reggie is that I expect Lancona to be a better outside shooter and it seems that with the loss of Ellis, we will need another outside shooter. It will be fun to see how it works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Reggie 2 mpg? LOCK over of the year. He'll get much, much more time than that... It might take until the conference season to happen, but I think MB is on the money here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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