Bench Bracket - Low Grad rates will drop schools out of March Madness

[billiken_roy]

Ruben Cotto, Brett Thompson, Jon Smith, Anthony Mitchell, etc. are all candidates. Basically anybody that left the program in the last 4 years could hurt the APR.

The APR is BS for a bunch of reasons (not the least of which it really doesn't measure graduation rates) but as others point out, it is the rules we have to live by. The real problem, is the NCAA for the longest time said if your rating drops below 925 you can lose a scholly or two, but nothing more than that. Then, they go and re-write the rules last summer and say 930 or higher or no NCAA tourney. They are giving teams a little slack time to get in in line but the APR is a 4 year average and it doesn't appear they are giving 4 years to do so. There is also a 2 year average that will likely save SLU from any punishment. Uconn was essentially legislated out of a potential appearance in 2013 and has never been given the opportunity to get their act in order.

The good news for SLU is that while our long term average isn't good, the most painful year was 2007-08 and that will roll of the average soon. With transfers slowing down materially we should be OK going forward.

while i agree that there are obvious loopholes for the likes of kentucky to not be on the list, the fact is the rules are what they are and we didnt make sure we stayed out of harms way. i dont care about the other schools that somehow are not on the list and probably should be on the list. we are saint louis university and should never be mentioned in the same breath with academic distress in any shape or form. if that meant we do everything we can to keep the students at slu until they have incompletes and dropped classes made up, by gosh at least do that. but seriously the white elephant in the room that no one wants to discuss is that we just shouldnt be running kids off in the numbers we have. i am hoping that the shear fact the borderline has now caught up to us, that this will stop or at least severly show down the revolving door.

[slu72]

It's appaling that schools like KY, UNC, et al are getting a pass on this when the term student athlete doesn't apply to them in any way, shape, or manner. You can bet KY's three frosh that are headed for the NBA won't ever see a lecture hall or classroom after they win the NCAA.

[TJHawk]

Why UNC? Roy Williams has always cared about the value of education.

[Taj79]

The Academic Progress Rate, as I understand it, is progress towards graduation. You need 12 credit hours per semester to be a full-time student to play as an undergrad. This would give you 96 credit hours over four years but you can add an additional 24 hours taking the same hours for your fifth year, hence the five-years-to-play-four mantra espoused by the NCAA. The so-called redshirt year. In those numbers, kids need to complete at least 24 credit hours per academic year to PASS the APR criteria. As long as you pass those numbers (and it's likely before the next school year starts, i.e. Fall 20xx), you and the school should be okay.

The issue is in when you don't. If Liddell and Eberhardt have not "graduated" and their five-year window expires, too bad. How long does their black marks stay on the book then? Let's say Jon Smith drops all his second semester classes before transferring to Ohio and leaves with only 12 or so hours passed in that academic year. Black mark too? When does that expire? Brett Thompson was ineligible at Lindenwood, where grades didn't reall ycount considering he was going from D1 to a lower school and did not have to sit out any tarnsfer time but did due to grades. Our black mark but again when does that expire?

If all the Kentucky kids quit classes come the fist week in April, then Kentucky too should be made to suffer. I wonder if that happens. Or do they take meaningless classes and have profs giving them the passing grades just to keep Calipari okay? There is no way John Wall did anything once his freshman year was done and he was identified as the lottery pick of choice. Same with Derrick Rose. I'd love to see the numbers but I agree with roy ------- no way in hell Saint Louis University should ever com eunder these scrutinizing eyes.

[slufanskip]

The NCAA ought to have a rule that you can't receive a scholarship to play at another school unless you are in good standing with the one you are leaving

[billiken_roy]

The NCAA ought to have a rule that you can't receive a scholarship to play at another school unless you are in good standing with the one you are leaving

most schools wont take a student athlete that cant "fix' their academic shortcomings during their waiting period. (i.e. when the student athlete transfers, they have to sit out a year. add the two probable summer terms, the student athlete in question has the time to fix their shortcomings.

however take the jordan kid that left slu after 'the incident" he was so far buried he originally could not get into the first school he tried to transfer to. so skip, i think the schools do a pretty good job of monitoring it now.

[Taj79]

And then there are the Ricky Clemons and 24 credit hours in one summer semester ......

[billiken_roy]

And then there are the Ricky Clemons and 24 credit hours in one summer semester ......

which speaks to the character of mi$$ouri. enough said. and in the long run that all bit them hard.

[Pistol]

The fundamental flaw with the APR is that it penalizes schools that don't manufacture ways to keep guys eligible and rewards those that do.

[kshoe]

The fundamental flaw with the APR is that it penalizes schools that don't manufacture ways to keep guys eligible and rewards those that do.

Bingo. It's not hard to imagine a situation where school XYZ gets in a situation where they need every kid to pass their classes to be eligible for the NCAA tournament the next year. Think about the pressure teachers will be under to give fake grades to completely undeserving students.

Its a classic case of the fox guarding the hen-house and the NCAA pisses me off because they give all this lip service about how academics matter and then put very strict restrictions on passing classes but have absolutely no protections to ensure that grades and class content are at all appropriate for college. In fact, the harder your classes really are the worse your APR will look.

Something tells me UGA has no problem with the APR:

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/quiz/_/id/600

[billiken_roy]

no argument that the apr is greatly flawed. but i also beleive creating it is at least a step in the right direction. now close the loopholes. and for us to sit around and sad mouth it is worthless. saint louis university is supposed to be a school of integrity and high academic values and achievement and the fact we have continued to allow our score to fall and now are mentioned as a borderline institution is careless. it needs to be fixed for a lot of reasons but for those of you that always talk about "just win", etc, imagine the negative recruiting that will be done against slu who is out there preaching to kids about slu's great academics and our great help academic services and then the opposing coach throws that at a parent that hasnt had a chance to read the pistol or kshoe reasons to ignore everything they read from the ncaa about APR.

[Pistol]

no argument that the apr is greatly flawed. but i also beleive creating it is at least a step in the right direction. now close the loopholes. and for us to sit around and sad mouth it is worthless. saint louis university is supposed to be a school of integrity and high academic values and achievement and the fact we have continued to allow our score to fall and now are mentioned as a borderline institution is careless. it needs to be fixed for a lot of reasons but for those of you that always talk about "just win", etc, imagine the negative recruiting that will be done against slu who is out there preaching to kids about slu's great academics and our great help academic services and then the opposing coach throws that at a parent that hasnt had a chance to read the pistol or kshoe reasons to ignore everything they read from the ncaa about APR.

SLU still has its integrity intact, Roy. The problem is that we took a flyer on kids like Jordan, Smith, Cotto, Reed, Thompson, and a couple others, not all of whom were able to cut it academically here. So they transfer out, short on credits, and have a year to get up to speed while they sit and become eligible for the year after. Should SLU's program be punished for taking a chance on guys who don't turn out to be smart enough, hard working enough, or whatever the reason may be they're unable to accrue all the credits they need?

The NCAA already has minimum standards for GPA and test scores to be eligible for competition. So why is it that students who meet those guidelines but who fail to meet the academic standards of the school they attend become major detriments to that school's athletic program because of an arbitrary "academic progress" measurement created by the NCAA? Doesn't it seem insane that the NCAA is penalizing schools for having higher academic standards than the NCAA itself has?

I understand why the rule was set up- to prevent programs like Huggins-era Cincinnati from doing what they do, just recruiting any guys the coach wants but none of who ever have any intention of performing academically, let alone graduating. I don't think it had the foresight, though, to realize it would be penalizing places like SLU, who aren't going to have professors keeping kids eligible no matter what. Not to mention, is it really fair to keep punishing a program 3-4 years after a kid signed, couldn't cut it academically, and had to leave?

[mrslu]

SLU still has its integrity intact, Roy. The problem is that we took a flyer on kids like Jordan, Smith, Cotto, Reed, Thompson, and a couple others, not all of whom were able to cut it academically here. So they transfer out, short on credits, and have a year to get up to speed while they sit and become eligible for the year after. Should SLU's program be punished for taking a chance on guys who don't turn out to be smart enough, hard working enough, or whatever the reason may be they're unable to accrue all the credits they need?

The NCAA already has minimum standards for GPA and test scores to be eligible for competition. So why is it that students who meet those guidelines but who fail to meet the academic standards of the school they attend become major detriments to that school's athletic program because of an arbitrary "academic progress" measurement created by the NCAA? Doesn't it seem insane that the NCAA is penalizing schools for having higher academic standards than the NCAA itself has?

I understand why the rule was set up- to prevent programs like Huggins-era Cincinnati from doing what they do, just recruiting any guys the coach wants but none of who ever have any intention of performing academically, let alone graduating. I don't think it had the foresight, though, to realize it would be penalizing places like SLU, who aren't going to have professors keeping kids eligible no matter what. Not to mention, is it really fair to keep punishing a program 3-4 years after a kid signed, couldn't cut it academically, and had to leave?

I think the point is that SLU needs to master the system AND keep the academic standards. It shouldn't be that hard to do, and I don't think we'll have a problem. I agree that, if a school has higher standards than the NCAA, that school should be able to handle the academic part of things on there own. I think we'll be fine.

[Pistol]

I think the point is that SLU needs to master the system AND keep the academic standards. It shouldn't be that hard to do, and I don't think we'll have a problem. I agree that, if a school has higher standards than the NCAA, that school should be able to handle the academic part of things on there own. I think we'll be fine.

We'll be fine but the problem is that we don't get rewarded for things like GPA, guys getting advanced degrees, guys who gradually work up their GPA, and so forth. We just get punished for not gaming the system to make sure guys get credit hours. If we're going to remain a school that doesn't do that (and I don't want us to, nor do I think we will), then the only way to avoid getting punished by the APR is to only offer guys who are already great students. That's really hard to do with basketball; lots of guys are worth taking a chance on, and get it done in the classroom even though they don't have a strong academic background. Some don't.

[WestCoastBilliken]

Honestly curious, how does a school like Harvard get through this?

Surely, a team that was ranked in the top 25 this year + the #1 ranked school in the nation would offer some kind of path to follow on all this.

How do they get good players that can compete on and off the court. SLU isn't anywhere near Harvard academically.

[JMM28]

Honestly curious, how does a school like Harvard get through this?

Surely, a team that was ranked in the top 25 this year + the #1 ranked school in the nation would offer some kind of path to follow on all this.

How do they get good players that can compete on and off the court. SLU isn't anywhere near Harvard academically.

We are doing the same thing Harvard is. The problem is not with the current players whatsoever. It is with the Brett Thompson's of the world who leave without passing classes. If Thompson had transferred out with 24 credit hours, he would not have counted against us. Same with Justin Jordan.

[WestCoastBilliken]

Basically, we just need to get through the ###### storm we are getting from the 2007-2008 players, let them roll off the APR (wehnever that is), and move on...?

[Billboy1]

Most high profile academic schools, e.g. Georgetown, Duke, etc. have special programs (classes) for the athletes who cannot compete academically with the other students

[bgtholt88]

This all sounds like a load of bs to me.

And what's the point? I'm sure the goal of this is so schools focus more on the athlete's academics.. We all know what will really happen.. Coaches will get these kids A's and B's even if they are not earning them, defeating the purpose to begin with.

And then the best part: News of some school handing out A's to student athletes will leak, there will be a huge controversy, and ESPN will have 5 different programs talk about it for the next two years.. I'll pass on this..

[JMM28]

Basically, we just need to get through the ###### storm we are getting from the 2007-2008 players, let them roll off the APR (wehnever that is), and move on...?

Basically -yes. The extra hurt came from 2 of the seniors from that year, BE and TL not finishing up. A program can withstand the normal amount of transfers/drop outs regardless of status. But when your seniors don't carry the water is when trouble comes for the APR.

[slufanskip]

most schools wont take a student athlete that cant "fix' their academic shortcomings during their waiting period. (i.e. when the student athlete transfers, they have to sit out a year. add the two probable summer terms, the student athlete in question has the time to fix their shortcomings.

however take the jordan kid that left slu after 'the incident" he was so far buried he originally could not get into the first school he tried to transfer to. so skip, i think the schools do a pretty good job of monitoring it now.

I'm saying that if you aren't on pace or whatever the apr rules require, you cannot receive a scholarship to another school. Not have time to fix it at the new school. Say JJ transfered but he was behind, yet he caught up during the red shirt year at his new school, does he still count as not on track with us since he wasn't when he left? If they couldn't even receive a scholarship unless they were on track, it'd certainly give them incentive to take care of business before they left

[For-DaLove]

I'm saying that if you aren't on pace or whatever the apr rules require, you cannot receive a scholarship to another school. Not have time to fix it at the new school. Say JJ transfered but he was behind, yet he caught up during the red shirt year at his new school, does he still count as not on track with us since he wasn't when he left? If they couldn't even receive a scholarship unless they were on track, it'd certainly give them incentive to take care of business before they left

I believe that whenever the student gets back on track, they no longer count negatively towards our APR

[slufanskip]

I believe that whenever the student gets back on track, they no longer count negatively towards our APR

thanks.

[RiseAndGrind]

thanks.

Tommie Liddell is back in school - if that helps our APR at all.

[JMM28]

Not to go all mathy today, but here is how the APR is calculated.

If there are 13 scholarships for a team...

11 guys remain eligible and in school for both semesters.

1 is ineligible for 1 semester

1 leaves after spring semester

You lose 2 points total, because there are 2 points per semester per player. So 26 points total available, and a team gets 24 of them. Multiple that percentage by 1000. That puts you at the cut off line of 925 give or take. So all it takes is 2 total screwups to put you at the dangerzone.

So basically - a completely stupid rule.

Edit - I should mention you get a retention point reinstated once that player is enrolled into another 4 year program. Same with losing someone to a professional league. So if a player is eligible and transfers to another 4 year program, no loss. If he is ineligible and transfers/drops out, thats 0/2 and takes you to the danger zone right there.

So basically - someone like Thompson hurts the most. 0/2 on him. Someone like Relphorde wouldn't hurt at all because he transferred into a 4 year program and was eligible for the next semester when he left.