Morality

[Pistol]

I don't know. I disagree agree you need to sell your morality to the highest talent to win. Jim Brown was amazingly successful with the Cleveland Browns and didn't tolerate immoral players. I acknowledge that is easier for professional sports teams, because people tend to mature as they age.

Why is the Jim Brown example irrelevant today? Because people would rather trade morality for the most talented sports players out there, and kids eventually internalize that they will not be held responsible for their actions or will be given greater latitude than say you or I. Those kids act that way through high school, college, and get to the pros, and the whole nature of sports has been changed.

Then again, if Majerus showing his junk in the SI example is in fact true, SLU has already made its decision -- it chose winning over the school's principles (which have long been gone in my opinion). Funny thing is, the "winning" hasn't really come to SLU. What, we made the NIT when I was a freshman? Some great trade!

I'd rather have SLU be mediocre than be like USC if it meant having to endure the conduct of players like theirs.

I'm also opposed to a "Win at all costs" mentality and sadly see it all over college sports these days (or lower levels, where it's even scarier in some ways). SLU was too harsh in its punishment of these guys in this situation, and could have made a statement about not accepting this kind of behavior in another way: suspensions from games, community service, serious statements/public conversations from the players involved. I don't think the school needed to go as far as it did to make a statement that it isn't an SEC-style 'win at all costs' school.

But the sanctimonious crap from Floridafan isn't helping anything- even though the initial post got me a great laugh at work yesterday afternoon. If players were subjected to that kind of preaching at Catholic schools, all Catholic schools would have to move to a lower division- Kevin Lisch only comes along once every decade, or maybe longer. SLU might be a Catholic school but it can't force all students to practice Catholicism (and hardcore Catholicism if Floridafan had his way) or prevent them from practicing another faith or none at all.

[Box and Won]

Jim Brown was amazingly successful with the Cleveland Browns and didn't tolerate immoral players.

Glad to hear that a wife-beater held his teammates to such high standards.

[Pistol]

Glad to hear that a wife-beater held his teammates to such high standards.

Really? I didn't know that. Editing the last line of my post...

[bomble]

Glad to hear that a wife-beater held his teammates to such high standards.

Good catch. I meant to say Paul Brown. I edited my post to reflect it but left my error as penance.

I would hope Jim Brown became a wife beater after leaving the browns.

[Major Majerus]

Not to mention: As my great uncle, The Rev. Sigmund Jankowski CSC, always preached to me,

"Nie ma piwa w niebie. Dlatego też napój tutaj."

Words to live by.

I would probably live by those words if I understood them. I even read them backwards, to no avail. Please translate.

[billiken_roy]

I would probably live by those words if I understood them. I even read them backwards, to no avail. Please translate.

bonwich was at the midnight viewing of harry potter last night and i doubt is awake yet.

joe, i trust you have a review for those of us not able to attend the showing last night.

[Billiken Rich]

I would probably live by those words if I understood them. I even read them backwards, to no avail. Please translate.

In heaven there ain't no beer, that's why we drink it here.....

Especially us Catholics...

Especially us Polish Catholics...

Especially us Polish Catholics after a wedding...

[bonwich]

In heaven there ain't no beer, that's why we drink it here.....

Especially us Catholics...

Especially us Polish Catholics...

Especially us Polish Catholics after a wedding...

Tak, pan Ricz! Bardzo dobrze!

[Billiken Rich]

Tak, pan Ricz! Bardzo dobrze!

Dzień dobry

[Deutschkind]

I would have thought there would be more people on this board who strive to follow Catholic moral teachings considering how many people here are SLU alums/students. The OP was pointing out that whether or not an assault occurred, what happened that night wasn't right. Of course, in today's society, it is viewed as right which is unfortunate.

[Pistol]

I would have thought there would be more people on this board who strive to follow Catholic moral teachings considering how many people here are SLU alums/students. The OP was pointing out that whether or not an assault occurred, what happened that night wasn't right. Of course, in today's society, it is viewed as right which is unfortunate.

Who on here said it's "right"? That's a distortion of every argument that's been made on here- no matter how strongly some posters have defended the players, no one said they were "right" in their actions.

Not every SLU student and alum is Catholic (about 50% last I checked).

Not every Catholic follows Catholic moral teachings.

Just playing the odds, most SLU-affiliated posters on this board likely do not follow Catholic moral teachings. And almost all of those who do are nice enough not to force their beliefs upon others.

[Deutschkind]

Who on here said it's "right"? That's a distortion of every argument that's been made on here- no matter how strongly some posters have defended the players, no one said they were "right" in their actions.

Not every SLU student and alum is Catholic (about 50% last I checked).

Not every Catholic follows Catholic moral teachings.

Just playing the odds, most SLU-affiliated posters on this board likely do not follow Catholic moral teachings. And almost all of those who do are nice enough not to force their beliefs upon others.

I could see this topic getting was off track, so I won't try to continue it down that path. I just thought there'd be more than just Floridafan saying anything like this. As for it being "right" or even. Even if it was just KM hooking up with this girl, it does not follow the values the SLU supposedly tries to live by. That's a fact. Whether something should have been done about it, is another matter.

[StLouisSportsStream]

I don't think religion even needs to be mentioned when speaking about the morality of this case. IMO, I feel what they did is wrong morally. In a court of law, they are innocent and that can not be disputed. As a teenager living in today's society, this is another example of what scares me. These kinds of activity disturb me about what is going on today in high school and college. I don't know how we fix it. Is a student/faculty court correct? I don't know because who do you punish and how do you punish them. In this case, both parties should be guilty for the actions that took place in that apartment

[bomble]

Who on here said it's "right"? That's a distortion of every argument that's been made on here- no matter how strongly some posters have defended the players, no one said they were "right" in their actions.

Not every SLU student and alum is Catholic (about 50% last I checked).

Not every Catholic follows Catholic moral teachings.

Just playing the odds, most SLU-affiliated posters on this board likely do not follow Catholic moral teachings. And almost all of those who do are nice enough not to force their beliefs upon others.

Pete, I'll agree with you on odds, but a school can "force" their beliefs on people. And if you don't like it -- don't go to that school.

My dad, as a Catholic, attended a Methodist school, and had to -- by requirement -- attend their chapel once a week. Schools typically don't do that now for a few reasons.

First, most schools, including SLU, have whored themselves out for prestige or money, although either hasn't worked out too well for SLU.

Second, most religious schools (except maybe BYU), shed the forced preaching because it caused fewer people to go there. (See #1)

Years and years later, the SLU 10pm mass that is a joke and hardly Catholic. I couldn't stand mass there because it was geared at "including" the people who go there who aren't Catholic. SLU, as a "Catholic" school made me less Catholic because they were weak at the knees.

Want to go to SLU? Great.

Not Catholic? Awesome. Welcome.

Should we gear our masses towards including you? Of course not, but you can come here and don't have to go to our mass.

Don't want to take any religion classes? Too bad FIND ANOTHER SCHOOL.

Don't want to be bound by the judicial system of the school, which is based in part on the church's teachings? Fine, FIND ANOTHER SCHOOL.

I think our judicial system is a sham, religion aside. I have tons of first-hand experiences to prove it. I don't think, in light of the police report, these two should have been suspended. I don't think that we should be "forcing our religious beliefs upon others" -- but SLU can use its mission to impose punishment. That much, to me, is clear, and if you don't like -- don't go there. Go to USC.

[Tonka]

Tak, pan Ricz! Bardzo dobrze!

Billikan Rich is a highly intelligent guy. I've learned that through the years of posting here.

One thing I did not know, is that Billiken Rich strongly resembles Chris Heinrich.

[courtside]

It always humors me when some people think all Catholics think and believe the same about Catholicism. One has to look no farther than any given priest on any given day in any given country, state, city, parish, school, etc...and you will often times find a wide variety of interpretation, teaching, and beliefs. ...as if there is one way to do or be a Catholic and any other interpretation is incorrect.

[Band Legend]

It always humors me when some people think all Catholics think and believe the same about Catholicism. One has to look no farther than any given priest on any given day in any given country, state, city, parish, school, etc...and you will often times find a wide variety of interpretation, teaching, and beliefs. ...as if there is one way to do or be a Catholic and any other interpretation is incorrect.

This is an excellent point. However, the Church hierarchy has become more willing to press this issue in recent years. There has been a concerted effort to reign in liberal Catholicism, especially with our present Pope.

[The Dude]

This is an excellent point. However, the Church hierarchy has become more willing to press this issue in recent years. There has been a concerted effort to reign in liberal Catholicism, especially with our present Pope.

Really disappointed in this post BandLegend. Please take it down into the gutter.

[Floridafan]

If players were subjected to that kind of preaching at Catholic schools, all Catholic schools would have to move to a lower division- Kevin Lisch only comes along once every decade, or maybe longer. SLU might be a Catholic school but it can't force all students to practice Catholicism (and hardcore Catholicism if Floridafan had his way) or prevent them from practicing another faith or none at all.

[Floridafan]

Sorry I fumbled the previous post.

I have not said that all students should become Catholic. The moral values that I have raised are held by all major Christian faiths. I don't expect all student, athletes or otherwise to be perfect. The actions that night were far from perfect and I am concerned about the spiritual damage. I think all of the major Christian faiths would call for or at least hope for some sort of reconciliation. My hope is that the young people that night would look at their conduct that night and say "I didn't do anything wrong".

I would hope this view is not considered extreme Catholicism.

I don't think the players should have been expelled. Maybe suspended for a few games and or probation. Repentence should be followed by forgiveness and the players should have been given a second chance on campus.

[TheA_Bomb]

It always humors me when some people think all Catholics think and believe the same about Catholicism. One has to look no farther than any given priest on any given day in any given country, state, city, parish, school, etc...and you will often times find a wide variety of interpretation, teaching, and beliefs. ...as if there is one way to do or be a Catholic and any other interpretation is incorrect.

On any given Sunday but they all drive off in the Hyundais.

[cheeseman]

Look, this situation is really about two things: 1. Non moral act 2. Pragmatic Understanding. First, no one would say that what happened that night was morally correct by all involved but to expect that young men and women who make poor decisions are without a moral compass is wrong. There is gradients of behavior that have to be taken into account. Is the person who leaves something small off their income tax filing immoral? - technically perhaps but his behavior does not mean he would be willing to steal money from the old widow next door. My point is as human beings we have to make choices based on lots of very gray areas/factors and sometimes we all fudge - anybody who says they don't or have not is in denial. Second, SLU makes pragmatic decisions all the time such as - sell Tenet the hospital - claim in court that you are not a religious organization and therefore eligible to accept TIF money. I am not judging here just pointing out that pragmatic practices of SLU when it meets their needs. In life, we all have to make pragmatic decisions but that does not mean we have to sell our souls to the devil either. The fact that the University changed the original decision on appeal supports this. Should the kids have been suspended - given what was at stake and how it all played out, probably not in my opinion. They could have sanctioned the players and the girl by putting them on student code probation and still given them the requirements to do community service and receive counseling. The end result would have been the same. As Bernie M said Friday on his show - he has no problem with a school having different behavior rules then the legal system but what happened that night is what is going to take place tonight about 6 million times. Life is too complicated for people to be so black and white and self moralizing.

[courtside]

That's just it Cheese...most people were not there and do not know what happen. We can guess this or that but most will never know everything.

Hypothetically speaking I have a problem with a guy and his buddies plotting to take advantage of a vulnerable girl, even if consensual. It doesn't equate fudging on your taxes to me. I'm well aware it happens...and as long as everyone involved knows about it ahead of time and is on board...whatever floats your boat...gay straight group etc...as long as it isn't a group of guys taking advantage of one girl.

In terms of colleges and Universities...say a Jesuit U...the religious influence and component is there for those that want to pursue it, but it's not thrown in people's faces who simply want the good education without the in your face religion. That seems to work pretty well.

I am a firm believer in no person of one religion telling anyone else of that same religion they are a good or bad this or that...I.e...good Catholic or bad Catholic. That's rather hypocritical and ridiculous. Everyone's religion or non-religion is individually personal to themselves.

Two people within the same religion can have opposing views regarding different specific aspects of that religion.

[bonwich]

I am a firm believer in no person of one religion telling anyone else of that same religion they are a good or bad this or that...I.e...good Catholic or bad Catholic. That's rather hypocritical and ridiculous. Everyone's religion or non-religion is individually personal to themselves.

Congratulations, courtside: You've just been de facto excommunicated. Anathema sit! Do not pass God, do not collect your 200 indulgences.

The charge: Denying papal infallibility. Re-read the quote. You've just pled guilty. (Don't worry too much about it, though. I'm pretty sure I'm in the same boat from having attended "Mass" at St. Stan's twice since the great schismski.)

That said, it's all off-topic in terms of Saint Louis University suspending two students. So is any mention of the St. Louis prosecutor. This was solely a matter of the codes and procedures of Saint Louis University.

The only first-hand witness we have to this process has been proven to be questionable, but we still have his statement. Saint Louis University violated the written code of conduct of Saint Louis University. It really doesn't matter what the he's said, or what she said, or whether this was a crime in the eyes of the law, or whether it was immoral in the eyes of the Church, or whether or not Saint Louis University is a "Catholic university." If (and this is still an unestablished fact) what WR Sr. said about the process is true, then Saint Louis University itself is clearly guilty of violations of its own code, of most people's moral codes and of more than a few torts in civil case law.

[courtside]

"Code.". ..."I beg your pardon." "Unit Corps God Country."..."Well...that's your code."