Disappointed

[brianstl]

without tl and kl next year, i hope i'm wrong, it will be a trying year. believe me, i want to win now, i also know what it takes to build a program, but next year will not be pretty.

I believe this team might be better off without both of them next year. The fact is that something is very wrong with the way the offense operates right now. I think the young kids at many times show too much deference to them and I think that causes a big problem with the offense.

[MB73]

I believe this team might be better off without both of them next year. The fact is that something is very wrong with the way the offense operates right now. I think the young kids at many times show too much deference to them and I think that causes a big problem with the offense.

Good theory, might be the answer or part of the answer.

Anotehr one would be "are KL and TL "going thru the motions'"?

Two kids, outstanding as sophs, digress with new coach, not "his kids", and see that the team is going nowhere?

Not accusing, just trying to figure what is wrong, because something "is".

[slufanskip]

Thats what I am thinking...

With TL and KL, and now with KM exceeding expectations, I sure thought RM would X and O us closer in the road games and steal one or two... thats why the blowouts are so discouraging. And althoug KM is playing well, and was out, we should be able to eek out a win at home vs Richmond with the veteran guards we have... something is wrong.

We did steal one .....forget about BC.

[MB73]

We did steal one .....forget about BC.

Nice win, but home game, Rice played lousy, BC not up for Billikens, looking past us to ACC, etc... and

obviously BC is capable of letting down (Harvard after NC).

[pdolwick]

I know it's been beaten to death, but while we're complaining ...

I don't think we did our freshmen any favors w/ the amazingly weak out of conference schedule. Pomeroy ratings have our non-conf schedule as 316th (of 342). Beating SC Upstate, NC A&T, and MD Baltimore County at home don't prepare you for what you will face once conference season rolls around.

The schedule has to be better next year, even if we have to go on the road to play the teams we need to play.

Pat D.

[satrap]

I don't think we did our freshmen any favors w/ the amazingly weak out of conference schedule. Pomeroy ratings have our non-conf schedule as 316th (of 342). Beating SC Upstate, NC A&T, and MD Baltimore County at home don't prepare you for what you will face once conference season rolls around.

We beat Stanford , NC, and USC, what are you complaining about??

Err, it was Samford and University of South Carolina-Upstate and Carolina A and T?? Never mind.

One overlooked thing, which I have convinced myself of, is that KL is out of shape and slow. Is ANYBODY else seeing this?

[TheA_Bomb]

I'm not letting this year get to me. Prior to the season I'm always hoping for the Billikens to make a run into the tournament but I didn't think it would really happen. I'm ok with this season as I know it is a rebuilding year 8 new players!

The main reason I'm ok with this season is that it is alot like the last 8 seasons. We will probably be right above .500 but this time we are doing it with 8 freshman and before we did it with SRs, JRs, Sophs.

I thought Rick had a magic wand but I've read the Sporting News article and realized it was only six inches. Ain't too much you can get with that (right ADPis) so I'll have to wait for the team to develop.

[satrap]

The main reason I'm ok with this season is that it is alot like the last 8 seasons. We will probably be right above .500 but this time we are doing it with 8 freshman and before we did it with SRs, JRs, Sophs.

I don't know. There's a tough .500 noncon/con and there's this year, with the wins coming over dreck, BC notwithstanding. Our wins over UMass and

GW were good wins too, though, and I'm not completely negative; it's just that our noncon was very weak overall, so our record should be worse...

[BIG BILL FAN]

Pretty simpleton analysis.

What's to understand?

WITH KM, we got POUNDED on the road by Temple, Neb, Detroit, and a sub-par SIUC team.

So, explain that.

Yeah, I forgot who reads this board, so I will try to explain it to you. The losses you were talking about were ROAD games! The game against Richmond was a home game. If you can not realize that KM is our best player at this point in the season, then you are a moron, or have never seen the team play.

[slufanskip]

Nice win, but home game, Rice played lousy, BC not up for Billikens, looking past us to ACC, etc... and

obviously BC is capable of letting down (Harvard after NC).

well the Temple game wasn't really a loss either, in fact we have no real losses .... just games where the situations had us with the lower score when time ran out.

So it's bad when we win, but it's just lucky circumstances when we win?

You think BC was looking about 10 games ahead?

[Quality Is Job 1]

and i will say this, lisch and liddell have to be the worst at using on the ball screens i have ever watched. considering we have all heard the story about rickma in practice insisting on defending on a screen by the "twelve inches" line, i wonder why he hasnt also insisted that when using a screen you dribble your defender into the screen instead of circling out 4 feet or going in the opposite direction.

It could depend on the hedge. If the opposing team hedges, taking the defender into the screener might result in a turnover.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Thank you all for the cordial responses. Again, I'm not picking on anyone, but we're all saying pretty much the same thing. I'd like to take it a step further. Why aren't our kids stronger and quicker? That's the point of the lifting and conditioning programs. They've been at it for at least 5 months. Some of our on the court issues have to do with strength, we are easily pushed around. This has always been an issue at SLU. Why?

I think, in general, that physique-altering conditioning is the focus in the offseason, not during the season. Working on building muscle during the season would sap their energy for the practices and games. And freshmen haven't had an offseason during which to work out in a collegiate-level strength-and-conditioning program. That was one of the primary problems with the 1991-92 squad that won only 5 games.

[Quality Is Job 1]

What hype? Where? Did I miss it? Perhaps a few posters on one internet message board were excited comparable to past recent seasons, but there hasn't been a lot of hype for this season outside of that. I believe most average observers understood that SLU would be very up and down this season. Just because KL, and TL are Seniors, doesn't mean SLU will automatically overcome the lack of other Seniors, Juniors, and Sophomores to go with them.

I believe your expectations were in the minority. As long as SLU continues annual solid recruiting classes, and as long as those kids develop, SLU will be much more competiive in the W-L column in a few years.

I know I didn't get my hopes up for this season. I even purposely abstained from participating in the record-projection thread because: 1.) with so many freshmen, I didn't know what to expect; and 2.) I prefer to project optimistically but didn't feel I could foresee that this year.

[Quality Is Job 1]

how come when i used to say that i got ripped to shreds?

And yet now it seems you're less patient with Coach Majerus than you've always preached with previous coaches -- based on salary and past performance.

[billiken_roy]

And yet now it seems you're less patient with Coach Majerus than you've always preached with previous coaches -- based on salary and past performance.

past coaches didnt make as much. past coaches didnt have the resume. past coaches didnt have the asst coach staff. past coaches didnt have the arena and practice facility. you are correct, i am less patient with rickma and i believe deservedly so. especially when i see more players regressing each year than improving.

[MB73]

Yeah, I forgot who reads this board, so I will try to explain it to you. The losses you were talking about were ROAD games! The game against Richmond was a home game. If you can not realize that KM is our best player at this point in the season, then you are a moron, or have never seen the team play.

So you are saying that everything is just fine, we are looking sharp, except that KM was out one game and we lost at home.

Brilliant.

[MB73]

past coaches didnt make as much. past coaches didnt have the resume. past coaches didnt have the asst coach staff. past coaches didnt have the arena and practice facility. you are correct, i am less patient with rickma and i believe deservedly so. especially when i see more players regressing each year than improving.

Agree.

I expected much more from RM. Losing all road games, bad, getting blown out on the road by Temple, out of the game in the 1st half (down 30) does not make sense to me. I expected TL and KL to be as good, or better, than soph yrs. I expected RM to out manuever other coaches and get a few unexpected wins on the road. This yr = looking bleak, thought there would be some progess. Yes, I understand freshman "bigs" take longer to develop, etc, etc. KM only one one team playing above expectations. Something is wrong.

[drkelsey55]

Agree.

I expected much more from RM. Losing all road games, bad, getting blown out on the road by Temple, out of the game in the 1st half (down 30) does not make sense to me. I expected TL and KL to be as good, or better, than soph yrs. I expected RM to out manuever other coaches and get a few unexpected wins on the road. This yr = looking bleak, thought there would be some progess. Yes, I understand freshman "bigs" take longer to develop, etc, etc. KM only one one team playing above expectations. Something is wrong.

I could understand this rant IF you where writing his check. But since I don't know you, you might be doing that, If so complain on otherwise why don't we all sit back and enjoy the journey.

[moytoy12]

I could understand this rant IF you where writing his check. But since I don't know you, you might be doing that, If so complain on otherwise why don't we all sit back and enjoy the journey.

Fans aren't allowed to be critical? There is plenty of blame to go around for some of our performances and part of it should be directed RM's way.

[Clock_Tower]

Agree.

I expected much more from RM. Losing all road games, bad, getting blown out on the road by Temple, out of the game in the 1st half (down 30) does not make sense to me. I expected TL and KL to be as good, or better, than soph yrs. I expected RM to out manuever other coaches and get a few unexpected wins on the road. This yr = looking bleak, thought there would be some progess. Yes, I understand freshman "bigs" take longer to develop, etc, etc. KM only one one team playing above expectations. Something is wrong.

No. Something was wrong. Brad recruited TL and KL and then no one else. We are paying the price for Brad's poor recruiting. RM has had only 1 year to bring in recruits - and thank goodness for them. Would you prefer cheering for Adam Knollmeyer and Dustin McGuire? Would Anthony Mitchell handle the point better than KM? Do you think we'd have a better front line with it anchored by Marcus Relephorde? Of I forgot, he wants to play guard.

As to KL and TL, they don't like RM. Its obvious and we get it. At the same time, get over it. It's a shame but I'll take my chances with RM.

[MB73]

No. Something was wrong. Brad recruited TL and KL and then no one else. We are paying the price for Brad's poor recruiting. RM has had only 1 year to bring in recruits - and thank goodness for them. Would you prefer cheering for Adam Knollmeyer and Dustin McGuire? Would Anthony Mitchell handle the point better than KM? Do you think we'd have a better front line with it anchored by Marcus Relephorde? Of I forgot, he wants to play guard.

As to KL and TL, they don't like RM. Its obvious and we get it. At the same time, get over it. It's a shame but I'll take my chances with RM.

So its OK with you ("we"?) that KL and TL are playing poorly, don't like RM, according to you (that is probably correct), and we are getting pounded.

Not OK with me, although like you I still am taking my chances with RM that in 2-3 yrs we will be better.

But expected better, that he could get KL-TL support and win some of the games that we lost.

[courtside]

past coaches didnt make as much. past coaches didnt have the resume. past coaches didnt have the asst coach staff. past coaches didnt have the arena and practice facility. you are correct, i am less patient with rickma and i believe deservedly so. especially when i see more players regressing each year than improving.

Roy,

You have a consistent pattern in your approach. If you do not like someone or something, you let your bias get in the way of objective evaluation and expectation. You have done this with opposing schools that changed conferences, just as SLU has changed conferences over the years. You have done this with coaches, depending on how much you like them from afar as people. You have also done this with players too.

[moytoy12]

Roy,

You have a consistent pattern in your approach. If you do not like someone or something, you let your bias get in the way of objective evaluation and expectation. You have done this with opposing schools that changed conferences, just as SLU has changed conferences over the years. You have done this with coaches, depending on how much you like them from afar as people. You have also done this with players too.

Courtside, you're definitely not immune to this either (e.g. "danny"). I don't think I've seen you acknowledge any valid criticism of RM, rather, you just prefer to patronize us by telling us that long-term success takes time.

[courtside]

Courtside, you're definitely not immune to this either (e.g. "danny"). I don't think I've seen you acknowledge any valid criticism of RM, rather, you just prefer to patronize us by telling us that long-term success takes time.

You are not comparing apples to apples, when comparing soccer to basketball. One is the school's main revenue sport, and the other is non-revenue. With that said I will oblige the topic.

Regular soccer board posters know that I am objective when critiquing the program and/or players or coaches etc..

Look up past threads from past seasons. In the past I had not endorsed the dismissal of Donigan as SLU soccer coach, and the opinion was formed after careful objective consideration based on a wide variety of things, of which I have posted here annually. You may or may not disagree with that, but my posts speak for themselves and regular soccer posters would tell you that my conclusions have been well supported objectively based on logic. ...fair conclusions if you will. I believe more than post season results go into any program, though of course they play an important role. Donigan had success as an assistant at SLU, and that is undeniable. SLU's coach at the time endorsed Donigan as his successor choice after also being the one to hire him as an assistant. That coach has been successful at SLU and elsewhere and is well respected Nationally. Donigan's play and previous coaching experience was well respected.

When Donigan's team missed the NCAA's, his program was outmanned in terms of funds, resources, coaches, etc..and even more importantly, SLU lossed several talented players who left early as underclassmen to play professionally. It has been argued simply to me that oh other schools have that problem too. Well, if you a little deeper, kids leaving early were unique to SLU at that time, and that is relevant. The number of kids leaving early was significantly higher than at even the most successful programs Nationally. Also, one of which was the National Freshman of the year, that of course has gone on to lead Germany's top professional division in scoring this year prior to recent season ending injury. This would also qualify some of these things as unique and not comparable to most everywhere else. While no one enjoys or wants adversity, it happened, and it was overcome. I'd also argue very reasonably that in one of those two seasons, SLU should have been invited to the NCAA's and weren't. Kids are graduating under Donigan, and there have been several Academic All-Americans as well. Donigan has added newer assistants, to make the program more competitive with more elite teams Nationally, and to help in some recruiting ways in which he could use the support.

So, as you can see, with this mere small partial look into the soccer program, I evaluate and opine objectively with reasonable conclusions supported by fact. And that's how I do it.

As for soccer itself, and posts regarding soccer, often times I post even more in soccer threads, because basketball doesn't need it nearly as much as soccer does on the board. Basketball is much more popular with the board. Soccer could use all the publicity it can get. So, I often times promote SLU soccer or the team itself in hopes of its success, regardless of coach or this or that. I don't feel the need to do that as much with basketball on here.

Back to basketball of which more people care. My opinion on Soderberg was to give him a few years and see what he could do, preferably 5. I have repeatedly posted good things about "Brad," as a person. You can read those posts, but they don't help make your point, at least in terms of Donigan, and possibly Majerus.

If Majerus does not have the program on good, solid, ground, moving in a strong, good, long-term projection after 5 years, then I'd have no problem if I believed it were the best thing, to say SLU needed to move into another direction.

Again, I'm not going to live and die with every game, especially in a coach's 2nd season, with all of the holes that will take years to fill.

Mike Anderson took plenty of heat at Mizzou for not doing things fast enough, and the verdict is certainly still out long term, but Anderson is getting more and more of the players he wants and is putting more and more of his personal stamp on the program as he puts in a few more years.

This is Majerus' 2nd season, and really his very first recruiting class, and they are Freshman. The absolute full class misses in previous recruiting, will slow the process a little, but when these Frosh are Juniors, I believe people will see results more to their liking.

As they say in the movie "Hoosiers," give the guy a chance, and let's see what he can or cannot do. So far, it hasn't really been much of a chance imo.

[moytoy12]

You are not comparing apples to apples, when comparing soccer to basketball. One is the school's main revenue sport, and the other is non-revenue. With that said I will oblige the topic.

Regular soccer board posters know that I am objective when critiquing the program and/or players or coaches etc..

Look up past threads from past seasons. In the past I had not endorsed the dismissal of Donigan as SLU soccer coach, and the opinion was formed after careful objective consideration based on a wide variety of things, of which I have posted here annually. You may or may not disagree with that, but my posts speak for themselves and regular soccer posters would tell you that my conclusions have been well supported objectively based on logic. ...fair conclusions if you will. I believe more than post season results go into any program, though of course they play an important role. Donigan had success as an assistant at SLU, and that is undeniable. SLU's coach at the time endorsed Donigan as his successor choice after also being the one to hire him as an assistant. That coach has been successful at SLU and elsewhere and is well respected Nationally. Donigan's play and previous coaching experience was well respected.

When Donigan's team missed the NCAA's, his program was outmanned in terms of funds, resources, coaches, etc..and even more importantly, SLU lossed several talented players who left early as underclassmen to play professionally. It has been argued simply to me that oh other schools have that problem too. Well, if you a little deeper, kids leaving early were unique to SLU at that time, and that is relevant. The number of kids leaving early was significantly higher than at even the most successful programs Nationally. Also, one of which was the National Freshman of the year, that of course has gone on to lead Germany's top professional division in scoring this year prior to recent season ending injury. This would also qualify some of these things as unique and not comparable to most everywhere else. While no one enjoys or wants adversity, it happened, and it was overcome. I'd also argue very reasonably that in one of those two seasons, SLU should have been invited to the NCAA's and weren't. Kids are graduating under Donigan, and there have been several Academic All-Americans as well. Donigan has added newer assistants, to make the program more competitive with more elite teams Nationally, and to help in some recruiting ways in which he could use the support.

So, as you can see, with this mere small partial look into the soccer program, I evaluate and opine objectively with reasonable conclusions supported by fact. And that's how I do it.

As for soccer itself, and posts regarding soccer, often times I post even more in soccer threads, because basketball doesn't need it nearly as much as soccer does on the board. Basketball is much more popular with the board. Soccer could use all the publicity it can get. So, I often times promote SLU soccer or the team itself in hopes of its success, regardless of coach or this or that. I don't feel the need to do that as much with basketball on here.

Back to basketball of which more people care. My opinion on Soderberg was to give him a few years and see what he could do, preferably 5. I have repeatedly posted good things about "Brad," as a person. You can read those posts, but they don't help make your point, at least in terms of Donigan, and possibly Majerus.

If Majerus does not have the program on good, solid, ground, moving in a strong, good, long-term projection after 5 years, then I'd have no problem if I believed it were the best thing, to say SLU needed to move into another direction.

Again, I'm not going to live and die with every game, especially in a coach's 2nd season, with all of the holes that will take years to fill.

Mike Anderson took plenty of heat at Mizzou for not doing things fast enough, and the verdict is certainly still out long term, but Anderson is getting more and more of the players he wants and is putting more and more of his personal stamp on the program as he puts in a few more years.

This is Majerus' 2nd season, and really his very first recruiting class, and they are Freshman. The absolute full class misses in previous recruiting, will slow the process a little, but when these Frosh are Juniors, I believe people will see results more to their liking.

As they say in the movie "Hoosiers," give the guy a chance, and let's see what he can or cannot do. So far, it hasn't really been much of a chance imo.

You completely missed the point of my original post. Soccer, basketball, politics, it doesn't matter, a bias is a bias and you have certain biases that underlie certain of your arguments/comments. I pointed out one with respect to "danny". That doesn't mean you don't have certain objective facts to point to, but I do question what drives your argument. Is it the personal affinity you have for DD or the objective facts?

And I see you're still unwilling to acknowledge that valid criticisms of RM exist (could this be your bias in favor of Majerus that prevents you from acknowledging that he could be doing a better job too?).