Disappointed

[billiken_roy]

They had Quitman Dillard, Julian Winfield, and, for a while, myself and Melvin Robinson. I'd don't know if I'd take those returning players over Lisch and Liddell knowing what we know now (Robinson and I left). But that's as much if not more talent.

Did those frosh improve considerably? Highmark and Claggett averaged double figures. Were they better as frosh than Mitchell?

http://www.billikens.com/statistics/seasonstats/91-92.htm

winfield was also a freshman. you and melvin turned out to be cancers and didnt help the program a bit.

quitman indeed was a team leader, but he didnt have the skills of lisch or liddell.

and yes they did improve tremendously as freshmen. that is my point.

[Westy03]

i said yesterday that mitchell threw the switch around xmas and has been getting better and better. i would tend to disagree on willie. i think he is definitely exceeding preseason expectations, but i dont see a game by game betterment from early december.

as to lisch, yes, it is quite disappointing to see someone with the guts and determination of a kevin lisch be broken.

I share your frustration regarding K. Lisch but when the kid is consistently missing wide open shots and taking bad shots the past few games it just makes you think how good he really is without players around him which could be solely on the hands of Brad Soderberg not Kevin or Rick. As far as Willie, I think that his rebounding and positioning have become a ton better on game by game basis- we will just have to disagree on that.

[TheChosenOne]

i said yesterday that mitchell threw the switch around xmas and has been getting better and better. i would tend to disagree on willie. i think he is definitely exceeding preseason expectations, but i dont see a game by game betterment from early december.

as to lisch, yes, it is quite disappointing to see someone with the guts and determination of a kevin lisch be broken.

I would tend to agree with that. I think Mitchell has really elevated his game and has proven to be a fine point guard extremely early in his career. Willie has certainly exceeded my expectations, but I would agree with Roy here. I recall him being fantastic against UMBC and a number of other nonconference games and then during the majority of the conference games I have seen he seems to be overmatched. I think he provides a ton of energy and is extremely fun to watch, but I do not see much improvement with regards to his play now as compared to a month ago. I am still extremely excited about his potential. Brian Conklin is the guy that frustrates me. Where is his offensive game?

[Bay Area Billiken]

claggett and highmark did not have a lisch or a liddell on their team.

that said, i had a lot of fun watching those freshmen improve considerably under grawer throughout the season.

I was at the game that year at Santa Clara, sitting right behind the SLU Bench and Coach Grawer, amidst an extremely small gathering of fans at the then Toso Pavilion. SLU had all those freshmen- Julian Winfield, Scott Highmark, Erwin Claggett, et al. SLU also had Melvin "Big Chill" Robinson, who I think was a Junior. I'll never forget Big Chill fouling out of that game at the other end of the court from where I was sitting, and walking off the court, as it turned out, for the last time for SLU, as he announced he was leaving shortly thereafter.

That young SLU team went through the growing pains of a 5-23 season, 0-10 in the Great Midwest.

But within 2 short years, Claggett and Highmark, who stayed, found themselves playing in the NCAA Tournament, on an incredibly entertaining SLU team, a team that started the season 14-0, and a team that even drew the public attention of Bill Clinton, of all people.

[willie]

I would tend to agree with that. I think Mitchell has really elevated his game and has proven to be a fine point guard extremely early in his career. Willie has certainly exceeded my expectations, but I would agree with Roy here. I recall him being fantastic against UMBC and a number of other nonconference games and then during the majority of the conference games I have seen he seems to be overmatched. I think he provides a ton of energy and is extremely fun to watch, but I do not see much improvement with regards to his play now as compared to a month ago. I am still extremely excited about his potential. Brian Conklin is the guy that frustrates me. Where is his offensive game?

I think Brian will figure out how to score at the college level. Currently he just tries to power the ball up into bigger defenders. The good news is that he's getting fouled,the bad news is he can't get a field goal. All in all I think he's had a good freshman year.

[TheChosenOne]

I think Brian will figure out how to score at the college level. Currently he just tries to power the ball up into bigger defenders. The good news is that he's getting fouled,the bad news is he can't get a field goal. All in all I think he's had a good freshman year.

I do not disagree, I just expected him to have some kind of an offensive game based on what we heard about him coming out of high school. His shot beyond 5 feet has looked terrible, although some of that may be nerves. I love the effort and tenacity and for a freshman to have that kind of toughness is extremely nice to see, I just wish he could knock down some shots for us.

[Westy03]

I do not disagree, I just expected him to have some kind of an offensive game based on what we heard about him coming out of high school. His shot beyond 5 feet has looked terrible, although some of that may be nerves. I love the effort and tenacity and for a freshman to have that kind of toughness is extremely nice to see, I just wish he could knock down some shots for us.

He did hit a couple of nice jumpers from 8-12 feet out in the blowout against Temple, so hopefully he will gain some confidence in his shot. I also remember him saying that he is not used to playing facing the basket as much as he is doing now so he has a big adjustment to make.

[courtside]

Essentially, you accused Roy of allowing his negative bias to drive his opinions re: RM. . "Danny" was an example of where your bias has come into play in my opinion. Hence, the "e.g." I don't need every example where you have talked about a coach, I only need to raise one where it is fairly obvious that your subjective feelings has clouded your "objective" judgment. Soderberg, Joey, Jesus...they're irrelevant to this discussion.

You're a piece of work and obviously misunderstanding point after point. I'm not here to rehash the DD discussion.

Now, back to the current team. You said you don't believe RM is above criticism. Are you just saying that in general? If so, how insightful.

Ok, let's try again. Do you believe there are things he could rightly be criticized for in his first year and a half? I don't need examples. You don't need to "bash" a coach. It's simple enough, that I didn't think I'd have to ask you the question numerous times. Heck, forget DD, it's becoming obvious that your personal bias favoring RM is not allowing you to answer a simple question.

Keep up the good fight Mr. I Am Always Objective and Never Allow Subjective Feelings to Influence My Opinion.

I pointed out to you that I have referred to Brad as "Brad," and not Soderberg in some posts. I have referred to Joe Clarke as Joey in some posts. Jack Jewsbury as Jackie, etc...I do this all the time with a variety of people that are not exclusive to Donigan. This would refute your assertion of bias based on how I say someone's name. You initiated the relevance of name pronunciation, and therefore you made it relevant, and I provided information to refute your assertions.

You seem obsessed with wanting me to criticize multiple SLU coaches more than I apparently do. The topic here has been overall RM program evaluation. That topic is different than say SLU's on the ball and rotation help defense was poor vs Temple.

[courtside]

I don't doubt that, but that doesn't mean he should get a free pass for the first 2 seasons.

What were/are your expectations for the first two seasons?

[moytoy12]

I pointed out to you that I have referred to Brad as "Brad," and not Soderberg in some posts. I have referred to Joe Clarke as Joey in some posts. Jack Jewsbury as Jackie, etc...I do this all the time with a variety of people that are not exclusive to Donigan. This would refute your assertion of bias based on how I say someone's name. You initiated the relevance of name pronunciation, and therefore you made it relevant, and I provided information to refute your assertions.

You seem obsessed with wanting me to criticize multiple SLU coaches more than I apparently do. The topic here has been overall RM program evaluation. That topic is different than say SLU's on the ball and rotation help defense was poor vs Temple.

You continually miss the point. I wasn't trying to explain your bias by the use of a nickname. The nickname was a metaphor.

This post is proof-positive that you are a bit off the rocker. I'm not obsessed with you criticizing multiple (or any) coaches. But hey, feel free to continue to make things up. I haven't "wanted" you to criticize anyone. I've asked multiple times about whether one coach should be subject to criticism for his performance over the 1st year and a half of his tenure. And guess what, you still won't answer that question.

[courtside]

You continually miss the point. I wasn't trying to explain your bias by the use of a nickname. The nickname was a metaphor.

This post is proof-positive that you are a bit off the rocker. I'm not obsessed with you criticizing multiple (or any) coaches. But hey, feel free to continue to make things up. I haven't "wanted" you to criticize anyone. I've asked multiple times about whether one coach should be subject to criticism for his performance over the 1st year and a half of his tenure. And guess what, you still won't answer that question.

You mentioned it several times in this thread alone. And you complained of personal attacks, and yet you just called me off my rocker.

Sure any coach can be subject to criticism starting their first minute on the job.

[moytoy12]

What were/are your expectations for the first two seasons?

Honestly, I didn't know what to expect with RM. I knew of him, but didn't have an in-depth understanding of how he ran things. My hope was for this to be a competitive team that played a good brand of basketball. By competitive, I was hoping for 2-5 games over five hundred with a couple of tough losses to good teams, win the ones we should and maybe sneak in a good win or two.

So far, we are fairly close to that except for the horrible road losses that have plagued the team over the last two years. RM is to be commended for his recruiting.

To the brand of basketball. However, I think he should be questioned on his offense. I don't know anything about basketball, but it seems we should be able to run a better offense than what we are doing. Also, I question him dropping AK and MR. These were two big bodied kids that I think could have supplied some helpful minutes, especially when our team is in the middle of a conference season with only 7 scholarship players.

I think RM should be held accountable for our poor starts on the road. The guys have lacked intensity. I don't know if it's fatigue or cramming too much into their heads, not preparing adequately for the opponent, but it appears to me that our road games look increasingly similar and not in a good way.

I think he should be criticized for cramming too much info into the guys' heads last xmas break. RM himself admitted as much.

In relation to my expectation, I would grade RM a "B" for past results to date and would give him a "B+ to A-" for the future of our program.

As I agreed with Nark, i'm not so concerned with other (e.g. P.R.) aspects of the job.

[moytoy12]

Sure any coach can be subject to criticism starting their first minute on the job.

Are you incapable of answering the question directly?

[moytoy12]

You mentioned it several times in this thread alone. And you complained of personal attacks, and yet you just called me off my rocker.

You are off your rocker.

[billiken_roy]

You are off your rocker.

i'll tell you this moy, if courtside now quits giving us the all things great and wonderful for marquette past, present and future because of your remarks in this string, i for one will be very upset.

[moytoy12]

i'll tell you this moy, if courtside now quits giving us the all things great and wonderful for marquette past, present and future because of your remarks in this string, i for one will be very upset.

LOL. I knew you couldn't get enough of hearing those things.

I also hope he continues with his arrogant and patronizing comments.

[eastsidejoe]

i'll tell you this moy, if courtside now quits giving us the all things great and wonderful for marquette past, present and future because of your remarks in this string, i for one will be very upset.

where is thicks when we need him.

[courtside]

i'll tell you this moy, if courtside now quits giving us the all things great and wonderful for marquette past, present and future because of your remarks in this string, i for one will be very upset.

I knew you would help me illustrate the point I made about you Roy. You allow your personal dislikes of different schools, programs, coaches, whether it is at SLU or other places to interfere with your objective opinions at other times. Your thoughts positive or negative regarding Majerus, Lisch, Soderberg, Marquette, etc...

Drive by shots at past Marquette posts. You have such distaste for Marquette that you cannot allow for objective discussion, especially as how it can be relative to SLU. And why? Because they joined the Big East. SLU would have done anything to join. SLU has also left conferences and programs in the dust to join different conferences, but this isn't as important to you. Was Marquette supposed to say, no, we'll follow SLU wherever they want to go? This somehow causes you to hate and despise. I simply don't think that way. And, I don't let that envy, or hate based on league affiliation to influence my opinions. Is it their obnoxious fans? C'mon Roy, Marquette gets 19k a game often times, and a few hundred internet posters or probably less. Or is it BillikenLaw's past posts here. Are a handful of people really going to form your opinion on a school or program? That's a bit short-sighted. Don't you think? Every school has good and bad fans. Should I judge SLU's fan base based on Metz?

We can run through the same with the people listed above.

When I post things on other schools, people don't seem to be as interested in the topic, nor do they seem to have such a negative reaction. I think the venom for them is silly. I don't share it. I don't hold venom for Mizzou either. I don't post dollar signs when posting their school's name on here. Should I check with you or the board and get a list of schools that I cannot say anything indifferent or objective about? Who's on the list? Marquette, Mizzou, UC, Louisville, DePaul, etc..let's see, West Virginia because they have Huggins most likely, ...anybody else?

You also didn't continue the discussion on front court players that you initiated.

I didn't start this thread.

I'm not going to say that any SLU guard at the time was every bit as good as Dwyane Wade, as you did on multiple occasions, or compare Novak to Braun, or to even say that Deane wasn't roughly speaking similar in results to Spoon over their time periods. When I say Larry Hughes puts up 40 on Mike Bargen, it doesn't get as much of a reaction.

[moytoy12]

I knew you would help me illustrate the point I made about you Roy. You allow your personal dislikes of different schools, programs, coaches, whether it is at SLU or other places to interfere with your objective opinions at other times. Your thoughts positive or negative regarding Majerus, Lisch, Soderberg, Marquette, etc...

And your personal bias won't let you acknowledge that RM should be criticized for certain things in his first 1.5 years. What's your point?

[courtside]

And your personal bias won't let you acknowledge that RM should be criticized for certain things in his first 1.5 years. What's your point?

Actually no, I have never said that. Please post the link where I said that, thanks.

[slufanskip]

I would tend to agree with that. I think Mitchell has really elevated his game and has proven to be a fine point guard extremely early in his career. Willie has certainly exceeded my expectations, but I would agree with Roy here. I recall him being fantastic against UMBC and a number of other nonconference games and then during the majority of the conference games I have seen he seems to be overmatched. I think he provides a ton of energy and is extremely fun to watch, but I do not see much improvement with regards to his play now as compared to a month ago. I am still extremely excited about his potential. Brian Conklin is the guy that frustrates me. Where is his offensive game?

for Willie and Brian ... it's a bit different going against USC overthere as compared to Temple, UMass and X. Of course they don't look as good

[moytoy12]

Actually no, I have never said that. Please post the link where I said that, thanks.

You didn't have to say it, your reluctance to answer a simple question directly is proof enough. I will assume that in your eyes RM has done nothing worthy of being criticized during his tenure so far.

[courtside]

You didn't have to say it, your reluctance to answer a simple question directly is proof enough. I will assume that in your eyes RM has done nothing worthy of being criticized during his tenure so far.

And that's where you would lead yourself down a path of micommunication, misinformation, and false conclusions.

I answered your question above. I also even explained that there is a difference between small things, such has on the ball defense and defensive rotations, such as v Temple, and overall program evaluation. In terms of overall program evaluation, it'd be premature to evaluate the newer coach, just as it was with Soderberg, Donigan, Warming, Romar, and everyone else through similar time frames.

[slufanskip]

I knew you would help me illustrate the point I made about you Roy. You allow your personal dislikes of different schools, programs, coaches, whether it is at SLU or other places to interfere with your objective opinions at other times. Your thoughts positive or negative regarding Majerus, Lisch, Soderberg, Marquette, etc...

Drive by shots at past Marquette posts. You have such distaste for Marquette that you cannot allow for objective discussion, especially as how it can be relative to SLU. And why? Because they joined the Big East. SLU would have done anything to join. SLU has also left conferences and programs in the dust to join different conferences, but this isn't as important to you. Was Marquette supposed to say, no, we'll follow SLU wherever they want to go? This somehow causes you to hate and despise. I simply don't think that way. And, I don't let that envy, or hate based on league affiliation to influence my opinions. Is it their obnoxious fans? C'mon Roy, Marquette gets 19k a game often times, and a few hundred internet posters or probably less. Or is it BillikenLaw's past posts here. Are a handful of people really going to form your opinion on a school or program? That's a bit short-sighted. Don't you think? Every school has good and bad fans. Should I judge SLU's fan base based on Metz?

We can run through the same with the people listed above.

When I post things on other schools, people don't seem to be as interested in the topic, nor do they seem to have such a negative reaction. I think the venom for them is silly. I don't share it. I don't hold venom for Mizzou either. I don't post dollar signs when posting their school's name on here. Should I check with you or the board and get a list of schools that I cannot say anything indifferent or objective about? Who's on the list? Marquette, Mizzou, UC, Louisville, DePaul, etc..let's see, West Virginia because they have Huggins most likely, ...anybody else?

You also didn't continue the discussion on front court players that you initiated.

I didn't start this thread.

I'm not going to say that any SLU guard at the time was every bit as good as Dwyane Wade, as you did on multiple occasions, or compare Novak to Braun, or to even say that Deane wasn't roughly speaking similar in results to Spoon over their time periods. When I say Larry Hughes puts up 40 on Mike Bargen, it doesn't get as much of a reaction.

Thanks for getting it out in the open ... No you cannot say good things about WV or Huggins or any of the team probation officers or wardens. Furthermore you can't say anything good about anyone who knew Huggins or even stood next to him in line at the bail bond office.

I'll give an exception for Spoon as everyone has their addictions.

[billiken_roy]

When I say Larry Hughes puts up 40 on Mike Bargen, it doesn't get as much of a reaction.

that was a great day.

for the record, my extreme taste for certain programs indeed comes from fans of those particular programs that have tried to ram down our throat their belief of their favorite programs superiority. if that shoe fits your beloved marquette, that is your problem. if you cant understand how that rankles slu fans besides just me, you are not even trying.

but you just keep on thinking you are the end all. in your own mind you have won. good for you.