Disappointed

[kwyjibo]

well i dont have a response for that. point taken.

If you use tempo and opponent adjusted defensive stats like you should, Saint Louis is ranked 170th (the 50th percentile) in overall defense this year. I have not been very impressed with the defense I have seen this year (pretty limited admittedly). The "3-pt defense" prowess while partly an artifact of playing teams who do not shoot 3's much or well stands up as good. But SLU "2pt Defense" is actually well below average. Also click on other available years to see how this defense stacks up against other years.

http://www.kenpom.com/team.php?team=St.%20Louis

That said, this is a really good rebounding team, particularly for its size (Barry E, Tommie III, Brian C, Brett T all have good rebounding stats).

And I could use this time to note that the current Tempo of Saint Louis is ranked 332 (nearly the slowest). In absolute terms this is a tad faster than last year's record slow pace. I cannot help but remember how I was criticized for pointing out that Majerus's teams were likely to be slower than previous Saint Louis teams at the beginning of last year (I am sure you are apologizing in your heart where it counts!).

[willie]

In general, I agree with your premise, but these kids began lifting in June and July, not October. Heck, Femi John can lift everyday, but he's not any bigger. Players at BCS schools get bigger during the season.

Again, not trying to argue, just discuss, is it possible we'd be better off with less time watching film and more time lifting? From what I hear 2 and 3 hour film sessions are fairly normal. Again no offense to anyone, but if that's true, can't they watch a little less and get a little stronger?

Are KL, TL and PE appreciably stronger than last year? BE certainly is.

I also wonder about how much time we spend on watching tape. If the NCAA limits the time you can spend on basketball how much of that is devoted to tape? I can invision RM droning on in the locker room when that time might be better spent shooting free throws. Don't get me wrong, I'm convinced Rick will take us to the promised land, but he does have his quirks.

[billiken_roy]

And I could use this time to note that the current Tempo of Saint Louis is ranked 332 (nearly the slowest). In absolute terms this is a tad faster than last year's record slow pace. I cannot help but remember how I was criticized for pointing out that Majerus's teams were likely to be slower than previous Saint Louis teams at the beginning of last year (I am sure you are apologizing in your heart where it counts!).

and i truly cant think of one of the previous complainers about our style of play under soderberg and romar being too slow, mentioning the same now.

i personally couldnt care less about tempo. however i am concerned when the offense is as pointless as this one is.

[moytoy12]

and i truly cant think of one of the previous complainers about our style of play under soderberg and romar being too slow, mentioning the same now.

i personally couldnt care less about tempo. however i am concerned when the offense is as pointless as this one is.

A further point is that losing with such a plodding offense isn't likely to attract the casual fan.

[courtside]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but is anyone else disappointed that we've not gotten much better. We've played nearly 2/3 of the season, we have 2 senior playing nearly every minute, shouldn't we be getting a little better. I don't understand today's game at all.

We come out playing a junk defense, triangle and two. They should uncontested 3 after 3 and essentially the game is over at the half. Our difficulty in scoring makes overcoming a 10 point deficit nearly impossible.

I've watch SLU bball for over 40 years and our kids never get appreciably stronger. Obviously, BE got stronger, but the frosh look the same today as they did in November. They've been on campus for 6 months, and I assume lifting regularly. Shouldn't they be looking different?

The only frosh that has appreciably improved is KM. The others give great effort, but they haven't improved as players much. Has WR developed any new low post moves? BT, like AK last year, is so nervous he'll screw up that it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. BC gives terrific effort, does a bunch of little things, but hasn't improved his jump shot, to where he has to be guarded away from the basket. I'll take RM at his word and KC gets it, but his shot has been an issue all season.

Complain all we want about Kevin and Tommy, but how do we score next year? Given the last 2 years, and the time it takes to learn RM's system, can we expect an incoming frosh to be a major scorer? Heck, we need at least 2 of them.

I hope everyone I listened to is right and the problem was that KM didn't play, but I have my doubts. From my perspective, Richmond was the better team. They had better athletes, better bball players, and a system that played to their athleticism.

Please politely show me why I'm wrong!

I'll give it a shot.

You won't see noticeable differences in physical stature in that amount of time. You will however see it, not as much in bulk, but more so on strength, as the years go by. Guys also lift more, during the off-season on average.

You say that KM in your opinion is the only noticeably improved Frosh. Well, he also was the most ready to play Frosh, which factors into your thought process. He's also played higher competition prior to SLU than many of the other players and has more experience at higher levels. He also is not a front court player. Bigs and front court players always take longer to develop. WR is getting better and he will keep getting better. He will get stronger as long as he works. The same goes for other front court players at SLU. The levels to which they achieve will vary based on potential and work ethic. I believe your expectations are unrealistic for the levels of improvement you seek considering the time frame given. Be more patient. SLU will struggle at times next year. SLU isn't expected to be great or elite next year.

You simply cannot get the recruiting results SLU has had for many years and expect one class to change it all. And, contrary to what I believe Roy wrote, this is not a great current Frosh recruiting class. It is a good, solid class. It isn't exceptional by any means as far as talent, ability and potential. However with that said, there is much better potential than SLU has seen in recent recruiting memory.

[MB73]

I expected more, too.

I thought RM was a great "X's and O's guy"; supposed to be # 2 only to Don Nelson.

Enough to make a difference.

With two solid senior guards, and some 3 star freshmen, some decent "bigs", I thought we could hang in there on the road, not get blown out BIG.

Something is wrong, a la Tampa Bay in football (blown out last 4 games).

Maybe part of it is just that KL is hurting enough that he can play but not nearly to his standards, and we do not know it.

But something is wrong, we should be doing better than this.

Does not add up.

Maybe we will find out.

[courtside]

Face it, there was a lot of hype this year. New Arena, best recruiting class in years, TL and KL's 2nd year in RM's system , the weeding out of our supposed deadwood, and, of course, our potential HOF coach. The hype didn't go as far as to say, "we're dancing in 2009", but it did up our expectations a lot over last year. So, SLU 72 fan's concerns are shared by many. The reality of the situation is only two of the frosh were even semi ready for the leap to D1, KM and BC. WR didn't even play HS ball last year so he's definitely a work in process, BT, like many big men, will take time, KC, although hoops savvy, needs some heavy work on his shot over the summer. All this coupled w/ KL and TL not seemingly able to carry the Billikids on their back has led to some demoralizing losses. As has been pointed out many times on this board, TL and KL's best seasons were in their Soph year. Why? IV was getting double teamed which allowed them more open looks. Now the D's are geared to stop them and let our frosh be frosh. Bottom line: we are still probably another season away from being what that NBA scout called a D1 team capable of competing even in the A-10. RM didn't have a magic wand afterall, an $80mm facility doesn't guarantee W's, and, as every coach worth his salt will tell you, you win with players and ours are just way too young at this point. For the time being, it's still "hard being a Billiken fan. "

What hype? Where? Did I miss it? Perhaps a few posters on one internet message board were excited comparable to past recent seasons, but there hasn't been a lot of hype for this season outside of that. I believe most average observers understood that SLU would be very up and down this season. Just because KL, and TL are Seniors, doesn't mean SLU will automatically overcome the lack of other Seniors, Juniors, and Sophomores to go with them.

I believe your expectations were in the minority. As long as SLU continues annual solid recruiting classes, and as long as those kids develop, SLU will be much more competiive in the W-L column in a few years.

[eastsidejoe]

I expected more, too.

I thought RM was a great "X's and O's guy"; supposed to be # 2 only to Don Nelson.

Enough to make a difference.

With two solid senior guards, and some 3 star freshmen, some decent "bigs", I thought we could hang in there on the road, not get blown out BIG.

Something is wrong, a la Tampa Bay in football (blown out last 4 games).

Maybe part of it is just that KL is hurting enough that he can play but not nearly to his standards, and we do not know it.

But something is wrong, we should be doing better than this.

Does not add up.

Maybe we will find out.

as much as tl and kl have underachieved by all standards, who do we replace them with next year that's going to make a difference???

[kmbilliken]

and i truly cant think of one of the previous complainers about our style of play under soderberg and romar being too slow, mentioning the same now.

i personally couldnt care less about tempo. however i am concerned when the offense is as pointless as this one is.

I'm also at a loss in trying to figure out our offense. Our bigs come out to set screens, but it rarely frees anyone for an open look. When other teams do this to us the screeners man steps out to stop the dribbler and the screener slides inside often with an uncontested path to the basket. Are our bigs too slow or are we just not executing?

[moytoy12]

as much as tl and kl have underachieved by all standards, who do we replace them with next year that's going to make a difference???

Great question and this should be a BIG concern as it's obvious that, for the most part, our freshman will not be able to step in and be difference makers in RM's system.

[courtside]

Great question and this should be a BIG concern as it's obvious that, for the most part, our freshman will not be able to step in and be difference makers in RM's system.

I believe you and some others in this thread grossly underestimate the transitional period of development for front court players, and to a lesser extent other positions. The difference between being a Freshman and being a Sophomore in the same system is huge in terms of development, play, strength, etc..

I'm sure KM would look even better if he had another point guard of which to share time as a Frosh. As it is, there isn't any doubt he will be a high level point guard for SLU as an upperclassman.

Willie Reed's potential is obvious, He's farther along than some other Frosh I have seen in recent years at some pretty good schools. Recently graduated Ousmane Barro at Marquette comes to mind as a guy who didn't even play high school ball, yet developed into a very serviceable front court player at Marquette. In fact, they had a kid in the mid 90's who also played one year at most of high school ball who eventually played several years in the NBA. Reed has more potential than that, and Majerus has a lot of experience developing front court players.

Conklin has some potential as an undersized 4 who can rebound and do a lot of little things to win.

SLU has had to play a lot of kids who wouldn't be getting nearly as much time as Frosh, and with that comes ups and downs all season long, not just part of it.

[moytoy12]

I believe you and some others in this thread grossly underestimate the transitional period of development for front court players, and to a lesser extent other positions. The difference between being a Freshman and being a Sophomore in the same system is huge in terms of development, play, strength, etc..

I'm sure KM would look even better if he had another point guard of which to share time as a Frosh. As it is, there isn't any doubt he will be a high level point guard for SLU as an upperclassman.

Willie Reed's potential is obvious, He's farther along than some other Frosh I have seen in recent years at some pretty good schools. Recently graduated Ousmane Barro at Marquette comes to mind as a guy who didn't even play high school ball, yet developed into a very serviceable front court player at Marquette. In fact, they had a kid in the mid 90's who also played one year at most of high school ball who eventually played several years in the NBA. Reed has more potential than that, and Majerus has a lot of experience developing front court players.

Conklin has some potential as an undersized 4 who can rebound and do a lot of little things to win.

SLU has had to play a lot of kids who wouldn't be getting nearly as much time as Frosh, and with that comes ups and downs all season long, not just part of it.

I don't underestimate it, but simply observe the progression (or lack thereof) of TL and KL from juniors to seniors. Quite frankly, that's the only tangible evidence we have of SLU players in RM's system on a year-to-year basis.

And let's assume the freshman have the progression you speak of, who is going to replace KL and who is going to replace TL next year? Femi? Cassity? KM? For all of the bluster about KL and TL's season this year, we have gigantic hole next year and I'm not sure we have the players to fill it next year. Now granted, 2, 3 and 4 years down the road, I believe the hole will be filled.

[billiken_roy]

courtside, let's compare the three bigs to the last set of bigs that all came in relatively together, baniak, heinrich and tatum.

stats of our current big youngsters are actually worst than those three. and while all three had fair billiken careers, they were by no means billiken hall of famers.

i truly felt at the beginning of the year that all three, conklin, reed and thompson would easily surpass that three and they very well might by career end, but right now it isnt looking like they have had comparable freshmen season to that three.

btw, i truly remember porter moser telling us at a late billiken club meeting last year that this year's class (our current freshmen) was indeed loaded. but now you assure us that was not the case. now if you want to tell us why we take your word over moser, i'm all ready to read and learn.

[courtside]

I don't underestimate it, but simply observe the progression (or lack thereof) of TL and KL from juniors to seniors. Quite frankly, that's the only tangible evidence we have of SLU players in RM's system on a year-to-year basis.

And let's assume the freshman have the progression you speak of, who is going to replace KL and who is going to replace TL next year? Femi? Cassity? KM? For all of the bluster about KL and TL's season this year, we have gigantic hole next year and I'm not sure we have the players to fill it next year. Now granted, 2, 3 and 4 years down the road, I believe the hole will be filled.

You aren't going to replace a 4 year senior of KL and TL quality with 2nd year players, nor incoming Frosh, unless you bring in comparable level talent and let that talent play for a few years. You seem overly concerned that SLU will be unable to replace TL and KL next season, as opposed to a few seasons from now.

You will also see that some younger players will leapfrog returning players in terms of playing time and ability some of the time in different years. You also aren't accounting enough imo for player development, nor for the notion that players will get leapfrogged by better players. I don't hold the opinion that because there is a thought out there that KL and TL have had some uneven play, that this automatically translates that all other current and SLU players will follow suit.

Building a program is a long-term process.

[billiken_roy]

Building a program is a long-term process.

how come when i used to say that i got ripped to shreds?

[moytoy12]

You aren't going to replace a 4 year senior of KL and TL quality with 2nd year players, nor incoming Frosh, unless you bring in comparable level talent and let that talent play for a few years. You seem overly concerned that SLU will be unable to replace TL and KL next season, as opposed to a few seasons from now.

You will also see that some younger players will leapfrog returning players in terms of playing time and ability some of the time in different years. You also aren't accounting enough imo for player development, nor for the notion that players will get leapfrogged by better players. I don't hold the opinion that because there is a thought out there that KL and TL have had some uneven play, that this automatically translates that all other current and SLU players will follow suit.

Building a program is a long-term process.

Yes, as a fan, I'm concerned with this season and next, and 2 years from now and 10 years from now.

However, my central point was that eastsidejoe raised a good point in that next year could be even worse than this year due to the departure of TL and KL. You seem to agree with us (even though you couldn't come to say it in your initial response).

Building is a long-term process? Really. Thanks, I was unaware of this. Long-term success and short-term improvement shouldn't be mutually exclusive. You consistently make excuses for RM's lack of success and I understand (and agree with) half of your argument in that long-term success takes patience. However, RM is also getting paid a ton of money to effect some improvement in the short-term, which to this point has been nominal at best. I think RM should be getting a little heat for the poor performances on the court (especially on the road). No one is immune to criticism.

[SShoe]

courtside, let's compare the three bigs to the last set of bigs that all came in relatively together, baniak, heinrich and tatum.

stats of our current big youngsters are actually worst than those three. and while all three had fair billiken careers, they were by no means billiken hall of famers.

i truly felt at the beginning of the year that all three, conklin, reed and thompson would easily surpass that three and they very well might by career end, but right now it isnt looking like they have had comparable freshmen season to that three.

btw, i truly remember porter moser telling us at a late billiken club meeting last year that this year's class (our current freshmen) was indeed loaded. but now you assure us that was not the case. now if you want to tell us why we take your word over moser, i'm all ready to read and learn.

Tatum never really had a "freshman" year, as he came in midway during his sophomore season and already had the body.

Also, IMO, Baniak's best season was as a freshman, which I think is primarily because of Larry, who tended to make everybody on the team that year better, especially Baniak.

[courtside]

courtside, let's compare the three bigs to the last set of bigs that all came in relatively together, baniak, heinrich and tatum.

stats of our current big youngsters are actually worst than those three. and while all three had fair billiken careers, they were by no means billiken hall of famers.

i truly felt at the beginning of the year that all three, conklin, reed and thompson would easily surpass that three and they very well might by career end, but right now it isnt looking like they have had comparable freshmen season to that three.

btw, i truly remember porter moser telling us at a late billiken club meeting last year that this year's class (our current freshmen) was indeed loaded. but now you assure us that was not the case. now if you want to tell us why we take your word over moser, i'm all ready to read and learn.

C'mon Roy, you know better. Baniak and Heinrich were Freshman with Larry Hughes. As I recall Larry Hughes was pretty good (sarcasm, understatement, ...for full disclosure purposes he was named the National Frosh of the year). Their numbers had better be better than SLU's current Frosh front court players their year with Hughes. Are you now comparing Lisch and Liddell to Hughes? On that same team, SLU had a lot more balance and experience in other areas as well.

I am not Porter Moser. I am not responsible for what Porter Moser says or does. I am not aware of what Porter Moser said or didn't say to you or to a booster group. I can tell you that coaches speak to booster groups, alumni groups all the time, and I've yet to hear one that didn't say they weren't excited about the new crop of incoming players.

Were you really expecting Al-Farouq Aminu this year for SLU's bigs? Are they playing with the same supporting cast too?

As long as Willie Reed works, takes care of business in all facets of being a student athlete, he'll be a very good upperclassmen front court player at SLU. He has more potential than the 3 past players you mentioned. He's more athletic and longer than Baniak and Heinrich, and has capable hands and footwork. He'll get stronger, and he'll develop more facets to his game.

I believe my favorite all time player comparison with you on here is Chris Braun, from your sample era above vs Steve Novak. Well, one of them is well on their way to a 10 year NBA career and one isn't. You can guess which one. Big men take longer to develop and to add more pieces to their game than backcourt players. I for one, like Reed's potential, and will see who else comes in the next couple of seasons in the front court.

Did you ever watch guys like Doleac, Mottola, etc...play at Utah their Frosh years and then a couple of years later?

Mottola averaged 6 points per game as a Frosh, and he made the NBA. Look at Michael Doleac's production at Utah his first two seasons vs his last two seasons, ...6, 7 points per game and then more than doubling it and yes, again, an NBA player.

[slufanskip]

C'mon Roy, you know better. Baniak and Heinrich were Freshman with Larry Hughes. As I recall Larry Hughes was pretty good (sarcasm, understatement, ...for full disclosure purposes he was named the National Frosh of the year). Their numbers had better be better than SLU's current Frosh front court players their year with Hughes. Are you now comparing Lisch and Liddell to Hughes? On that same team, SLU had a lot more balance and experience in other areas as well.

I am not Porter Moser. I am not responsible for what Porter Moser says or does. I am not aware of what Porter Moser said or didn't say to you or to a booster group. I can tell you that coaches speak to booster groups, alumni groups all the time, and I've yet to hear one that didn't say they weren't excited about the new crop of incoming players.

Were you really expecting Al-Farouq Aminu this year for SLU's bigs? Are they playing with the same supporting cast too?

As long as Willie Reed works, takes care of business in all facets of being a student athlete, he'll be a very good upperclassmen front court player at SLU. He has more potential than the 3 past players you mentioned. He's more athletic and longer than Baniak and Heinrich, and has capable hands and footwork. He'll get stronger, and he'll develop more facets to his game.

I believe my favorite all time player comparison with you on here is Chris Braun, from your sample era above vs Steve Novak. Well, one of them is well on their way to a 10 year NBA career and one isn't. You can guess which one. Big men take longer to develop and to add more pieces to their game than backcourt players. I for one, like Reed's potential, and will see who else comes in the next couple of seasons in the front court.

Did you ever watch guys like Doleac, Mottola, etc...play at Utah their Frosh years and then a couple of years later?

Mottola averaged 6 points per game as a Frosh, and he made the NBA. Look at Michael Doleac's production at Utah his first two seasons vs his last two seasons, ...6, 7 points per game and then more than doubling it and yes, again, an NBA player.

Only 2 of the 3 Baniak and Heinrich played together as freshmen.

CH and MB 39mpg, 13ppg, 8.3rpg in their fresman year

BC and WR 36mpg, 14.4ppg, 8.8rpg in their freshman year.

[courtside]

Only 2 of the 3 Baniak and Heinrich played together as freshmen.

CH and MB 39mpg, 13ppg, 8.3rpg in their fresman year

BC and WR 36mpg, 14.4ppg, 8.8rpg in their freshman year.

Yep, and that's why I only mentioned them in the first line. Tatum began a year later, in the 7 point 19 minute per game range.

[BIG BILL FAN]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but is anyone else disappointed that we've not gotten much better. We've played nearly 2/3 of the season, we have 2 senior playing nearly every minute, shouldn't we be getting a little better. I don't understand today's game at all.

We come out playing a junk defense, triangle and two. They should uncontested 3 after 3 and essentially the game is over at the half. Our difficulty in scoring makes overcoming a 10 point deficit nearly impossible.

I've watch SLU bball for over 40 years and our kids never get appreciably stronger. Obviously, BE got stronger, but the frosh look the same today as they did in November. They've been on campus for 6 months, and I assume lifting regularly. Shouldn't they be looking different?

The only frosh that has appreciably improved is KM. The others give great effort, but they haven't improved as players much. Has WR developed any new low post moves? BT, like AK last year, is so nervous he'll screw up that it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. BC gives terrific effort, does a bunch of little things, but hasn't improved his jump shot, to where he has to be guarded away from the basket. I'll take RM at his word and KC gets it, but his shot has been an issue all season.

Complain all we want about Kevin and Tommy, but how do we score next year? Given the last 2 years, and the time it takes to learn RM's system, can we expect an incoming frosh to be a major scorer? Heck, we need at least 2 of them.

I hope everyone I listened to is right and the problem was that KM didn't play, but I have my doubts. From my perspective, Richmond was the better team. They had better athletes, better bball players, and a system that played to their athleticism.

Please politely show me why I'm wrong!

You didn't understand today's game? What's to understand, we played the game without our best offensive and defensive player, and had no competent replacement. With KM we win the game.

[MB73]

You didn't understand today's game? What's to understand, we played the game without our best offensive and defensive player, and had no competent replacement. With KM we win the game.

Pretty simpleton analysis.

What's to understand?

WITH KM, we got POUNDED on the road by Temple, Neb, Detroit, and a sub-par SIUC team.

So, explain that.

[Majerus Magic]

Did you ever watch guys like Doleac, Mottola, etc...play at Utah their Frosh years and then a couple of years later?

Mottola averaged 6 points per game as a Frosh, and he made the NBA. Look at Michael Doleac's production at Utah his first two seasons vs his last two seasons, ...6, 7 points per game and then more than doubling it and yes, again, an NBA player.

This is actually a good point. I didn't realize that about Doleac and Mottola. This is the one thing that gives me hope..they are freshman.

On another note, I really really really thought RM's coaching would have been able to "steal" us at least ONE win. I mean, I knew we would struggle this year but seriously...this is bad. A HOF coach should be able to steal a couple, not matter how "bad" the talent is.

[MB73]

This is actually a good point. I didn't realize that about Doleac and Mottola. This is the one thing that gives me hope..they are freshman.

On another note, I really really really thought RM's coaching would have been able to "steal" us at least ONE win. I mean, I knew we would struggle this year but seriously...this is bad. A HOF coach should be able to steal a couple, not matter how "bad" the talent is.

Thats what I am thinking...

With TL and KL, and now with KM exceeding expectations, I sure thought RM would X and O us closer in the road games and steal one or two... thats why the blowouts are so discouraging. And althoug KM is playing well, and was out, we should be able to eek out a win at home vs Richmond with the veteran guards we have... something is wrong.

[eastsidejoe]

without tl and kl next year, i hope i'm wrong, it will be a trying year. believe me, i want to win now, i also know what it takes to build a program, but next year will not be pretty.