DoctorB Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 folks; on a somewhat related topic (ie the state of our universities, and even possibly basketball): wow! ! ! . . . I heard about this new book A NATION OF WIMPS, by Hara Estroff Marano. former editor for Psychology Today; so I went to the web-site: www.nationofwimps.com hit the button for "articles" and read some of these descriptions of today's student clientele; it will really help explain some of the jawdropping entitlement and other issues that have become our bread and butter. The problems are skyrocketing at an alarming rate, also, according to the author. There is one in particular for this board; about the difficulties finding referees, who are simply sick of dealing with mad parents and idiotic, entitlement players. Welcome to my world ... I may be hallucinating, but already this semester some of the "requests" that my undergraduates have been making seem so preposterous, and presumptuous, that I feel like telling them to do something that SLU professors should not be telling their students to do. I cannot imagine speaking to any of my own professors in the 70s the way I frequently am spoken to here at SLU. It reeks of entitlement and a mindless self-centeredness that is frankly quite alarming. Wimps, indeed. I told one wan young man to feel free to drop my course. Boy did that seem to rock his world. I'm sure I will be hearing from the Dean. (This attitude may even affect the "feelings" of student athletes, who cannot cut the mustard, or take constructive criticism, so just quit. No names here. . . .) comments? can I get a witness? any amens??? I would be particularly interested in hearing how some of our younger members, especially current SLU students, feel about this growing critique of today's adolescents. ps -- you might be interested to know that the term "adolescents" is now frequently used by many professionals to denote people in their 20s -- and even beyond!!! Dylan: the times they are a-changing . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 folks; on a somewhat related topic (ie the state of our universities, and even possibly basketball): wow! ! ! . . . I heard about this new book A NATION OF WIMPS, by Hara Estroff Marano. former editor for Psychology Today; so I went to the web-site: www.nationofwimps.com hit the button for "articles" and read some of these descriptions of today's student clientele; it will really help explain some of the jawdropping entitlement and other issues that have become our bread and butter. The problems are skyrocketing at an alarming rate, also, according to the author. There is one in particular for this board; about the difficulties finding referees, who are simply sick of dealing with mad parents and idiotic, entitlement players. Welcome to my world ... I may be hallucinating, but already this semester some of the "requests" that my undergraduates have been making seem so preposterous, and presumptuous, that I feel like telling them to do something that SLU professors should not be telling their students to do. I cannot imagine speaking to any of my own professors in the 70s the way I frequently am spoken to here at SLU. It reeks of entitlement and a mindless self-centeredness that is frankly quite alarming. Wimps, indeed. I told one wan young man to feel free to drop my course. Boy did that seem to rock his world. I'm sure I will be hearing from the Dean. (This attitude may even affect the "feelings" of student athletes, who cannot cut the mustard, or take constructive criticism, so just quit. No names here. . . .) comments? can I get a witness? any amens??? I would be particularly interested in hearing how some of our younger members, especially current SLU students, feel about this growing critique of today's adolescents. ps -- you might be interested to know that the term "adolescents" is now frequently used by many professionals to denote people in their 20s -- and even beyond!!! Dylan: the times they are a-changing . . . . doc, i feel for you. unfortunately you have to deal with the result of poor management at home by self centered spoiled parents that have taught their children to act that way. on a good note though doc, if my daughter comes to slu next year (50-50 chance) trust me she wont give you a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SShoe Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Sounds like an interesting read and one worth checking out. Honestly, I don't think I have any argument against the notion that my generation has become "entitled" or "soft". So many of us grew up with the advantages that previous generations never had and/or without any real hardships such as war w/ a draft, depressed economy, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postcard Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Back in my day, we had to walk to school, uphill - both ways, in the snow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I may be hallucinating, but already this semester some of the "requests" that my undergraduates have been making seem so preposterous, and presumptuous, that I feel like telling them to do something that SLU professors should not be telling their students to do. I cannot imagine speaking to any of my own professors in the 70s the way I frequently am spoken to here at SLU. It reeks of entitlement and a mindless self-centeredness that is frankly quite alarming. comments? can I get a witness? any amens??? I would be particularly interested in hearing how some of our younger members, especially current SLU students, feel about this growing critique of today's adolescents. Doc, I would be interested to hear some of the "requests" if you feel you could elaborate. Also, it be interesting to hear how students are speaking to you (again, if it's something you think you could post on a message board). I think SShoe brings up some good points and it's hard to refute the growing sensitivity of this group. Perhaps, these kids are merely a by-product of a citizenry that has a larger sense of entitlement. An interesting question is whether we are becoming more sensitive in our responses to their requests. Are we also "wimps" when we become offended by their actions? My dad and I have had this generation conversation on a number of occasions. Of course, my generation is lazier, dumber, has a larger sense of entitlement, etc. than his generation. Very thought provoking, Doc, thanks for the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdog Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 folks; on a somewhat related topic (ie the state of our universities, and even possibly basketball): wow! ! ! . . . I heard about this new book A NATION OF WIMPS, by Hara Estroff Marano. former editor for Psychology Today; so I went to the web-site: www.nationofwimps.com hit the button for "articles" and read some of these descriptions of today's student clientele; it will really help explain some of the jawdropping entitlement and other issues that have become our bread and butter. The problems are skyrocketing at an alarming rate, also, according to the author. There is one in particular for this board; about the difficulties finding referees, who are simply sick of dealing with mad parents and idiotic, entitlement players. Welcome to my world ... I may be hallucinating, but already this semester some of the "requests" that my undergraduates have been making seem so preposterous, and presumptuous, that I feel like telling them to do something that SLU professors should not be telling their students to do. I cannot imagine speaking to any of my own professors in the 70s the way I frequently am spoken to here at SLU. It reeks of entitlement and a mindless self-centeredness that is frankly quite alarming. Wimps, indeed. I told one wan young man to feel free to drop my course. Boy did that seem to rock his world. I'm sure I will be hearing from the Dean. (This attitude may even affect the "feelings" of student athletes, who cannot cut the mustard, or take constructive criticism, so just quit. No names here. . . .) comments? can I get a witness? any amens??? I would be particularly interested in hearing how some of our younger members, especially current SLU students, feel about this growing critique of today's adolescents. ps -- you might be interested to know that the term "adolescents" is now frequently used by many professionals to denote people in their 20s -- and even beyond!!! Dylan: the times they are a-changing . . . . I work with several recent grads of the Cook School of business, and they are some of the most intelligent, caring and respectful people I have worked with, regardless of age. I am extremely proud to have them on my team. Doc, you will never be able to reach every one of your students, but if you are able to get through to even a few of them, your efforts will be worthwhile. Thanks for your work on the front lines in the battle to help kids make the passage to adulthood! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyjibo Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 folks; on a somewhat related topic (ie the state of our universities, and even possibly basketball): I certainly have heard similar things from people who work at universities and more commonly in my life with managers complaining about new hires. Recently, I was teaching at community college, and I was surprised not to find much of the entitled attitude that I had experience in universities many years earlier and had expected. Actually, the students were a pleasure to deal with on academic matters and were both respectful and grateful I was there (I probably did not deserve all of that either). There is a problem with limited interaction because most were busy with jobs/families as well as school. I know of at least one academic that intentionally demoted himself to teach at community college but that is not a very viable option as pay is very terrible around here. Anyway, there is an issue and if you live and work in an academic environment where you are primarily meeting people from a narrow range of social/economic backgrounds you would tend to generalize from that perspective. Frankly, I more concerned with the hostility toward knowledge and culturally constructed ignorance that is being perceived by some in universities as some sociological issue of entitlement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I wonder if the high cost of tuition has anything to do with the sense of entitlement. When you go to a Lexus dealer, you're going to be treated differently than if you're buying a Hyundai. Same goes for restaurants, clothing stores, or just about anything else you can think of. I'd be curious as to whether students think that just because they're paying hefty amounts of money for their tuition (or in many cases, their parents are paying hefty sums), that that gives them the right to be coddled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyddobbler Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I hate to tell you Doc, but it only gets worse. I graduated 5 years ago and it didn't seem nearly as bad then. I teach in a middle school now and the sense of entitlement drives me crazy. These kids demand, and expect, to be pampered and to receive everything they ask for. It's almost impossible to teach the basketball team anything. And my school isn't nearly as bad as when we interact with some wealthier schools. But as some others have mentioned, it's not everyone. There are hard workers and some wonderful people in every generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 BTW, they need to put an end to giving out trophies to everyone in kids' sports leagues. What a crock of shite that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Hoops Insider Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I'm just proud of today's youth and the way they mobilized, volunteered and got involved and helped make January 20th, 2009 a day that forever changed the world as we know it and broke down one more barrier for those who dare to dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Thanks for the tip, Doc- always looking for a good read. I just put it on hold, but unfortunately the Cincinnati Public Library only has one copy so I could be waiting a while. What is the cut-off point for the "youngest generation" that the author discusses? I couldn't figure this out from the website. I'm 25, and I saw a lot of these spoiled, entitled, imbalanced, stupidly-named kids coming up through school, but I get the idea it keeps getting worse. My brother is a grade school teacher and sometimes the hardest part for him is having to sit there and bite his tongue while awful parents tell him that their awful child is really special and seeking the right way to express himself or herself. He'd love to look across the desk and tell them that their child is not special to anyone but them, of average or below-average intelligence, and emotionally unstable because of their lax parenting. On the other hand, STLHI makes a good point above. Whatever your political leanings, it's undeniable that a young generation rallied together unlike anything since the late 60s to get their candidate into the White House. A lot of it may have been done 'virtually', but they still banded together and moved in the same direction. It's also true that the younger generation's wimpiness is largely due to their baby boomer parents (and possibly now grandparents), who raised them this way- and divorced at a rate of near 50%. So as much as I believe the youngest generation has a ton of embarrassing shortcomings, let's not forget who's wagging the finger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Thanks for the tip, Doc- always looking for a good read. I just put it on hold, but unfortunately the Cincinnati Public Library only has one copy so I could be waiting a while. What is the cut-off point for the "youngest generation" that the author discusses? I couldn't figure this out from the website. I'm 25, and I saw a lot of these spoiled, entitled, imbalanced, stupidly-named kids coming up through school, but I get the idea it keeps getting worse. My brother is a grade school teacher and sometimes the hardest part for him is having to sit there and bite his tongue while awful parents tell him that their awful child is really special and seeking the right way to express himself or herself. He'd love to look across the desk and tell them that their child is not special to anyone but them, of average or below-average intelligence, and emotionally unstable because of their lax parenting. On the other hand, STLHI makes a good point above. Whatever your political leanings, it's undeniable that a young generation rallied together unlike anything since the late 60s to get their candidate into the White House. A lot of it may have been done 'virtually', but they still banded together and moved in the same direction. It's also true that the younger generation's wimpiness is largely due to their baby boomer parents (and possibly now grandparents), who raised them this way- and divorced at a rate of near 50%. So as much as I believe the youngest generation has a ton of embarrassing shortcomings, let's not forget who's wagging the finger. When I was hiring young adults from 91 until about 99, I found it amazing how hard it was to hire people who would care and work hard, more or less show up on time. Many of them college grads. Part of the problem is what we except, working for me if you were late (and late is 1 minute late) you got a verbal warning the 1st time, written the 2nd, and then fired, no ifs ands or buts. The thing is my peers thought I was nuts. They would constantly complain to me about there employees, but never had the balls to do something about what they were complaining about, mainly because it's easier to put up with it than to fire someone and have to go through the rehire mode. Obviously, their results suffered, but the trend continued. People will come to expect anything you continually let them get away with as the norm. Now today coaching young girls, I find the opposite to be true. I deal with girls from 8 to 13 or 14 years old. I almost never have a problem, and I am very demanding, but I lay the rules out in the 1st practice and then follow through with problems immediately. The result is the girls no what is expected of them and quickly learn what is or isn't acceptable. The girls work hard, never complain and honestly 9 out of 10 give everything they have. In 6 years, I've only had one parent complain or make an issue of playing time and that was because her girl played for me in a rec league (and played alot) but didn't get but maybe half the minutes in the select league. The parents are the thing that has surprised me the most. The large majority of them are so involved and supportive. So my point is, maybe we are seeing a change back to a more disciplined society. At least my experiences dealing with the girls I coach and the young adults I hired 10 years ago is vastly different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SShoe Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 When I was hiring young adults from 91 until about 99, I found it amazing how hard it was to hire people who would care and work hard, more or less show up on time. Many of them college grads. Part of the problem is what we except, working for me if you were late (and late is 1 minute late) you got a verbal warning the 1st time, written the 2nd, and then fired, no ifs ands or buts. The thing is my peers thought I was nuts. They would constantly complain to me about there employees, but never had the balls to do something about what they were complaining about, mainly because it's easier to put up with it than to fire someone and have to go through the rehire mode. Obviously, their results suffered, but the trend continued. People will come to expect anything you continually let them get away with as the norm. Now today coaching young girls, I find the opposite to be true. I deal with girls from 8 to 13 or 14 years old. I almost never have a problem, and I am very demanding, but I lay the rules out in the 1st practice and then follow through with problems immediately. The result is the girls no what is expected of them and quickly learn what is or isn't acceptable. The girls work hard, never complain and honestly 9 out of 10 give everything they have. In 6 years, I've only had one parent complain or make an issue of playing time and that was because her girl played for me in a rec league (and played alot) but didn't get but maybe half the minutes in the select league. The parents are the thing that has surprised me the most. The large majority of them are so involved and supportive. So my point is, maybe we are seeing a change back to a more disciplined society. At least my experiences dealing with the girls I coach and the young adults I hired 10 years ago is vastly different. Skip, you may be blessed with a great group of girls, but I'd be willing to bet that once these girls go through adolescence, some of their attitudes will change. I don't think anything has changed in 10 years, but that you have been dealing with two very different groups. The difference between a 13 year old and an 18 year old is pretty dramatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Skip, you may be blessed with a great group of girls, but I'd be willing to bet that once these girls go through adolescence, some of their attitudes will change. I don't think anything has changed in 10 years, but that you have been dealing with two very different groups. The difference between a 13 year old and an 18 year old is pretty dramatic. Maybe so, but it seems to me the problem is the kids at whatever age will expect whatever we as coaches, parents, and teachers allow them to expect. The problem isn't the kids, it's us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postcard Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 folks; on a somewhat related topic (ie the state of our universities, and even possibly basketball): wow! ! ! . . . I heard about this new book A NATION OF WIMPS, by Hara Estroff Marano. former editor for Psychology Today; so I went to the web-site: www.nationofwimps.com hit the button for "articles" and read some of these descriptions of today's student clientele; it will really help explain some of the jawdropping entitlement and other issues that have become our bread and butter. The problems are skyrocketing at an alarming rate, also, according to the author. There is one in particular for this board; about the difficulties finding referees, who are simply sick of dealing with mad parents and idiotic, entitlement players. Welcome to my world ... I may be hallucinating, but already this semester some of the "requests" that my undergraduates have been making seem so preposterous, and presumptuous, that I feel like telling them to do something that SLU professors should not be telling their students to do. I cannot imagine speaking to any of my own professors in the 70s the way I frequently am spoken to here at SLU. It reeks of entitlement and a mindless self-centeredness that is frankly quite alarming. Wimps, indeed. I told one wan young man to feel free to drop my course. Boy did that seem to rock his world. I'm sure I will be hearing from the Dean. (This attitude may even affect the "feelings" of student athletes, who cannot cut the mustard, or take constructive criticism, so just quit. No names here. . . .) comments? can I get a witness? any amens??? I would be particularly interested in hearing how some of our younger members, especially current SLU students, feel about this growing critique of today's adolescents. ps -- you might be interested to know that the term "adolescents" is now frequently used by many professionals to denote people in their 20s -- and even beyond!!! Dylan: the times they are a-changing . . . . All this might be true. I guess some people could say that the greatest generation and their three martini lunches was a nation of drunks. People change. Society changes. Attitudes change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLUBALLS Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Maybe so, but it seems to me the problem is the kids at whatever age will expect whatever we as coaches, parents, and teachers allow them to expect. The problem isn't the kids, it's us. I second Skip's comments as it relates to coaching. I coach both high school girls and ten year old boys and I haven't seen the type of outright entitlment attitude with either group. Yes, the kids change as they enter their teenage years and there were bumps during that transition, but for the most part the girls maintained a healthy dose of respect for me and other coaches. The boys are still at the age where they normally will respond to adult authority but even there I haven't seen any lack of understanding that to gain you must lose a little every now and then, whether it be individually or as a team. The parents I've had have never questioned my expectation for hard work and respect. I don't doubt that society has a larger contigent of the entitlement generation but I've been pleased with the kids I've worked with the last several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saluki762 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 doc, i feel for you. unfortunately you have to deal with the result of poor management at home by self centered spoiled parents that have taught their children to act that way. on a good note though doc, if my daughter comes to slu next year (50-50 chance) trust me she wont give you a problem. 100% agreement with Roy. It is really frustrating but it all stems from an epic failure by an entire gereration of parents. Of course there are exceptions but generally my parents generation has completed failed in their duties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills10 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 doc, you say that you could never imagine talking to your professors in such a way, but I am at SLU right now, and can definitely say the same thing. So can most of my friends and fellow students, I'm sure. The thing is, there may have been other students when you were in college that would treat their professors as maybe some people have treated you currently, but no one cared to write about it or address it. Just a thought. My impression of SLU students at least is that the vast majority are good, caring people, who willingly put others before themselves. Sure, there are rotten eggs. But when I compare my college experience and friends to those of friends at other schools, it is so much less me-centered. And I certainly do not think that my friends are the exception, but that it is the general trend in the SLU population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 100% agreement with Roy. It is really frustrating but it all stems from an epic failure by an entire gereration of parents. Of course there are exceptions but generally my parents generation has completed failed in their duties. my observation is that far too many of today's parents want to be buddies (not friends, a friend is honest and does the right thing and is the next best thing to a real parent) instead of parents. buddies want to party, have fun and be partner's in "crime and mischief". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicCityBilliken Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I agree with Bills10. Generations have been critical of other generations since the beginning of time. There was no respect for youth when I was young, and now that I am old, there is no respect for age - I missed it coming and going. ~J.B. Priestly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorB Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 Hi guys; thanks for all the good responses and the pm's too. I will make a few additional observations/clarifications. 1. I do not want to imply that I would say all students are wimps, that is not my view at all. In fact, I truly admire the top third or so of SLU students; the 33% is just a rough estimate. The top students are so great, absolutely wonderful, hard workers who want to give back, and who adore being challenged. Many of our top students do Jesuit corps, teach for America, or other mission-type service after graduating, something I never would have had the guts or character to do. Great, great young people. These are the ones I teach to, generally. 2. My take on the wimp theory is what we often call the "bottom third"-- a group of students who seems so much unlike the ones I describe above. Truly immature and brainless in so many ways, some of which are simple interpersonal skills like respecting elders. They have never been criticized about anything, never worked for anything. Lately, I and some of my colleagues are wondering if this group at SLU is expanding -- i.e. possibly the "bottom third" should be regarded as the "bottom half." these are the ones that worry me. And one person worried that I was letting them get me down. the reality is, no, not really. One begins to ignore the entitled few, and one is most inspired and motivated by the students in part 1, above. 3. One person asked, how do you see it manifested? I do not wish to go into details, but many of these students view me as their employee, and question me openly about class routines, rules, or due dates, etc. they think nothing of asking for special deals even in the first week of class. And if you suggest that they do not write exactly on an A level, then you are "not fair." I am very unclear about what "fair" means to these students, but I believe it means I am critical of their work. I guess that would mean Coach Majerus is also "unfair,' though I believe be probably gets less of this than I do (none of my students have transferred out because I thought their essay was mediocre, as far as I know). Finally, entitlement kids are unable to discern critical thinking. They believe all opinions are equal, and have absolutely no feel for serious critique, and abhor being corrected. Again, if you challenge any student on anything, there are some (not all) who find that disturbing and highly intimidating. The Socratic method is just too jarring for many students today (i.e. the bottom third), but the best students love it. 4. The last thing is this: it is too easy, and possibly lazy thinking, to attribute all of this as the standard "generation gap" -- in fact, we need to think about this particular gap in our own historical context. Each generation of students has its own pros and cons, and savvy observers should be able to analyze and evaluate these differences, that's all. Again, any good psychologist/sociologist is interested in the particulars here. As such, this growing entitlement, I am convinced, is unique to this generation in ways that it simply was not to earlier cohorts. (ps -- I say nothing here about dependency on technology, and how that affects today's students; I will leave that for later, gotta go!) I would welcome further (civil) comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Doc B did you see this in todays NYT? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/educatio...ref=todayspaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Doc B did you see this in todays NYT? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/educatio...ref=todayspaper I was just about to post that same article! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I was just about to post that same article!The first thing I thought about when reading it earlier today was this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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