The mass exodus has begun

[jjray]

As much as I like the recruits coming in, I do think we're going to see kids come and go every year. When you're talking about bringing in seven new kids next year (possibly more) you know all seven are not going to last for four years. So of that seven you're going to lose a couple of various reasons and some of them just aren't going to cut it playing for Majerus.

I believe we're going to see some very good results on the floor here soon but we'll also see some roster turnover every offseason.

Agree with Nate. Seven (maybe 8) new comers plus Tommie, Kevin, Barry and whoever else survives the purge means some of these prize recruits will not find themselves in the rotation come next season. No playing time while dealing with the relentless Majerus coaching style in practice = some kid(s) gets disenchanted. And then you have the following year's class of recruits for this bloated 2008 class to deal with in 2009. There will be casualties.

[Billiken Law]

Not quite accurate but close.

Jordan Armstrong is transferring to a DII where he will actually get some playing time.

Brandon Wood didn't see eye to eye and it was a MUTUAL seperation.

Christian Cornelius has an athritic knee due to an ACL tear and is contemplating whether he can play bball any more. If he can't play, he will still receive an academic scholarship since it is a physical ailment.

Those are the only 3 that are leaving....not quite the circumstances to be considered "cleaning house".

actually, should it be determined he should not play then he will continue to receive his athletic scholarship, however, it will not count towards the 13 scholarship limit. Medical evidence is necessary in order to do this.

[kshoe]

The way I understood it was that if the player is on pace to graduate then it will not affect the graduation rate. But I would like to know how that exactly works.

That is my understanding also. I posted on this topic a while back and got no response but best I can tell if a player is on pace to graduate within 5 years and he leaves the school it does not count against the graduation rate. Now, when guys like Obi and Horace Dixon make their way into our graduation rates you may see an issue as they were rumored to have grade issues in addition to never being factors on the court.

[AlumniFan]

And while we hang on to four of Sodies recruits that will never get off the bench we can continue to have people make snide remarks about how our million dollar coach isn't any good and how they expected immediate gratification for the million dollar investment etc.

Who is saying that "our million dollar coach isn't any good"? I have not seen that view expressed by anyone on this board. Maybe you are just trying to make a point, but I think most people understand that Majerus will build a program OVER TIME and not overnight.

Majerus clearly fumbled the ball on several facets of managing the team and his position THIS first season, but that is not any where near the same as saying he isn't any good.

I subscribe to a different philosophy than many on this board, partially because I have had two sons go through college, and that is that even at DUKE, the whole point is first to work for and attain a college level education and second, to use athletics as the mechanism to allow that. Given that philosophy, I have a moral distaste for dismissing "four of Sodies recruits" unless it is handled in a manner that is respectful of the desires of the student (not the athlete) to attain a college degree at an institution equal to or better than the one that he committed to and that committed to him in the first place.

[TheA_Bomb]

The problem with both sides of the argument in this situation is that there are too many assumptions. Some assume that Majerus is running off players and some assume the players leaving don't want to leave.

1. we don't know who is leaving if anyone (perhaps a recruit doesn't qualify etc)

2. maybe if players are leaving it is their choice or mutual

We just don't know at this point.

[Clock_Tower]

cowboy i have no idea what point you are trying to make.

my point was just because other schools cheat or send players away for no reason, is no reason we should be cutting players as well. i would hope saint louis university is better than that and treats our student athletes better than other schools. i have no idea how sending these kids away 2-3 years away from a degree they were promised by saint louis university is going to make us a better basketball team all that much faster. sure we get to recruit 4 more kids now, but why cant we coach up the kids we got and do the best we can and then gradually insert the 4 rickma players over the next 3 years? instead we treat our student athletes like possessions.

if nothing else if you are just about how fast our basketball team can get better, well maybe rickma does get 4 better players now, what coach isnt going to use this against us. "are you sure you want to play for rickma? you know if you dont make it big immediately at saint louis, rickma will send you down the road and you will have to find a new school. i cant guarantee you i will have a spot for you then. i got one now and if you come to xyz university now, you do indeed have a scholarship for four years." i guarantee you i would do it if i was an opposing coach.

Roy. First, your feelings are well known on this topic. Second, I respect your basketball knowledge but statements, in this post and all season long, such as "why cant we coach up the kids we got ..." are just plain foolish. Have you not watched any of the NCAA Tournament? Even the lesser seeds have talented players, particularly "big men." Soon this will Board will not go wild over things like DB's dunk 4 weeks ago. Such plays are routine for the top 64 teams. Sure, some "big men" who played in the NCAA Tourney are more talented than others but I have not watched anyone of AK's ability, or lack thereof. Same with DM and AM. If this was an isolated comment, then I'd let it pass. Unfortunately, it is not. You have blamed RM all year long because of his coaching. All year long you have said RM needs to adapt to his players. The 4 rumored players, quite simply, cannot adapt, be coached and/or play on the level we need to achieve. Possibly, MR has a future; however, because he rarely played in games, because we could not watch him in practice and, when he did play, he appeared to play "out of position" - at the 4, it is hard to tell as to his future. Third, get used to players (both his "step-children" and his own recruits) leaving. See his record at Utah for proof. Fourth, your comments about Cotto and Cassity are equally foolish. In short, we now have verbals for 7 players but only 5 available spots. Just because no one has officially left the program yet does not mean they Cotto and Cassity do not know what is going on. Clearly, they are verbally commiting to a scholarship that is not currently available. Clearly they know that RM is running off players and yet, this fact, is not negatively affecting their decision to commit to the SLU/RM. You aren't implying that Cassity and Cotto are either stupid, oblivious to the situation, not aware of the 13 scholarship limit or verbally agreeing upon the condition that they only replace an existing recruit (such as possibly WR) who might not qualify? Fifth, requiring RM to win with only 9 scholarship quality players is also just plain silly. Keep the 4 who cannot play, out of some notion of honor to them, unless they are replaced by "OJ Mayo type" recruits is also silly. Are you implying that it is OK to run off players as long as you replace them with OJ Mayo talent? Reminds me of the joke about lady willing to sleep with the guy for $1 million but then get offend at an offer of $20. Prostitution is established but we're just haggling over the price? Cotto v. Mayo.

My guess is that RM, out of hono, respect and commitment for and to the kids who will leave, is not drawing attention to this issue and, in fact, is/has been deflecting attention while he and the students/players make arrangements for their new school/team. If one of the kids is awaiting a scholarship offer and/or is contemplating between offers/schools, then this is the reason for the lack of official announcement. This is the reason that Cotto and Cassity committed prior to any official announcement. Just because there is no official announcement yet for any of these rumored kids does not mean kids are staying.

[JMM28]

Given that philosophy, I have a moral distaste for dismissing "four of Sodies recruits"

It is an acquired taste I'd say. You'll learn to love it.

[Clock_Tower]

Who is saying that "our million dollar coach isn't any good"? I have not seen that view expressed by anyone on this board. Maybe you are just trying to make a point, but I think most people understand that Majerus will build a program OVER TIME and not overnight.

Majerus clearly fumbled the ball on several facets of managing the team and his position THIS first season, but that is not any where near the same as saying he isn't any good.

I subscribe to a different philosophy than many on this board, partially because I have had two sons go through college, and that is that even at DUKE, the whole point is first to work for and attain a college level education and second, to use athletics as the mechanism to allow that. Given that philosophy, I have a moral distaste for dismissing "four of Sodies recruits" unless it is handled in a manner that is respectful of the desires of the student (not the athlete) to attain a college degree at an institution equal to or better than the one that he committed to and that committed to him in the first place.

Alum. So now all kids who leave the program must "attain a degree at an institution equal to or better than the one he committed to and that committed to him in the first place."? Are you really the father of these rumored kids as well?

In all seriousness, not many schools (if any) exist which would be "equal or better" than SLU and still want these kids to play basketball. Most of these rumored kids did not get many Division 1 offers in the first place. Whether of their own choice or not, these kids will fit in better at SIU Edwardsville, Western IL or such type Div 1 school or UMSL, Quincy, or such other Division II school. Assuming these kids want to continue playing basketball, Division II (or lesser Division 1) is probably a reality. None of these schools are, IMO, equal or better to SLU. Equal or better to me, would be Marquette, Georgetown, BC, DePaul, Dayton, XU, etc. These schools are just not a reality.

[kevinfootes]

cowboy i have no idea what point you are trying to make.

my point was just because other schools cheat or send players away for no reason, is no reason we should be cutting players as well. i would hope saint louis university is better than that and treats our student athletes better than other schools. i have no idea how sending these kids away 2-3 years away from a degree they were promised by saint louis university is going to make us a better basketball team all that much faster. sure we get to recruit 4 more kids now, but why cant we coach up the kids we got and do the best we can and then gradually insert the 4 rickma players over the next 3 years? instead we treat our student athletes like possessions.

if nothing else if you are just about how fast our basketball team can get better, well maybe rickma does get 4 better players now, what coach isnt going to use this against us. "are you sure you want to play for rickma? you know if you dont make it big immediately at saint louis, rickma will send you down the road and you will have to find a new school. i cant guarantee you i will have a spot for you then. i got one now and if you come to xyz university now, you do indeed have a scholarship for four years." i guarantee you i would do it if i was an opposing coach.

I think it might be good to tell recuits right away that they'll have to work their butts off to stay on the team year after year. If opposing coaches use that line and players/parents bring it up to RM, he simply needs to say "if you don't think you're good enough to cut it or don't want to work hard at SLU, then maybe you should consider another school."

[kevinfootes]

i couldnt care less what others do. i only care about saint louis university.

If you only care about SLU, why did you make a post about how much you hate Duke and Marquette?

[davidnark]

Who is saying that "our million dollar coach isn't any good"? I have not seen that view expressed by anyone on this board. Maybe you are just trying to make a point, but I think most people understand that Majerus will build a program OVER TIME and not overnight.

Majerus clearly fumbled the ball on several facets of managing the team and his position THIS first season, but that is not any where near the same as saying he isn't any good.

I subscribe to a different philosophy than many on this board, partially because I have had two sons go through college, and that is that even at DUKE, the whole point is first to work for and attain a college level education and second, to use athletics as the mechanism to allow that. Given that philosophy, I have a moral distaste for dismissing "four of Sodies recruits" unless it is handled in a manner that is respectful of the desires of the student (not the athlete) to attain a college degree at an institution equal to or better than the one that he committed to and that committed to him in the first place.

I understand and respect your point, but big-time college basketball is big-time business. Majerus is being paid $1M per year to win games in the NCAA tournament, which will in-turn increase the reputation, prestige, and well-being of the university as a whole. (See Gonzaga, Marquette, and Xavier.) Having nearly a third of his roster tied up for over half of Majerus's contract with kids who aren't good enough to reach the lofty goals (and weren't recruited by Majerus) is a big, big problem. It is harsh, but not renewing these four kids' scholarships may ultimately benefit tens of thousands of students and alumni, not just four student-athletes who still have the potential for success elsewhere. I hope that Majerus and the school is doing everything they can to help these kid's land in a good situation for them. (If you believe his book, he did this for every Utah kid that left the program.) However, I don't believe that there is any amount of coaching and developing that can turn the four players at issue into contributors at the level SLU is expecting Majerus to build.

[davidnark]

I think it might be good to tell recuits right away that they'll have to work their butts off to stay on the team year after year. If opposing coaches use that line and players/parents bring it up to RM, he simply needs to say "if you don't think you're good enough to cut it or don't want to work hard at SLU, then maybe you should consider another school."

There is no amount of anti-SLU leverage that could ever cause Majerus and his staff to recruit worse than Soderberg. Nobody was telling recruits that Soderberg would run them off, but it didn't help Brad from recruiting a class that consisted of Dustin Maguire, Horace Dixon, Obi Okeafor, and at least one "saved" scholarship.

[kevinfootes]

I understand and respect your point, but big-time college basketball is big-time business. Majerus is being paid $1M per year to win games in the NCAA tournament, which will in-turn increase the reputation, prestige, and well-being of the university as a whole. (See Gonzaga, Marquette, and Xavier.) Having nearly a third of his roster tied up for over half of Majerus's contract with kids who aren't good enough to reach the lofty goals (and weren't recruited by Majerus) is a big, big problem. It is harsh, but not renewing these four kids' scholarships may ultimately benefit tens of thousands of students and alumni, not just four student-athletes who still have the potential for success elsewhere. I hope that Majerus and the school is doing everything they can to help this kid's land in a good situation for them. (If you believe his book, he did this for every Utah kid that left the program.) However, I don't believe that there is any amount of coaching and developing that can turn the four players at issue into contributors at the level SLU is expecting Majerus to build.

Do you really think a better basketball team will somehow help your career? Having a better team can help attract more students to a school. That, in turn, can allow the school to be more selective. But do you really think HR recruiters are scouring the country for Memphis grads right now?

SLU's wins and losses will have very little impact on the professional lives of most people who are decades removed from attending the school.

[davidnark]

Do you really think a better basketball team will somehow help your career? Having a better team can help attract more students to a school. That, in turn, can allow the school to be more selective. But do you really think HR recruiters are scouring the country for Memphis grads right now?

SLU's wins and losses will have very little impact on the professional lives of most people who are decades removed from attending the school.

Will it help me? Probably not. Will it help the 10,000 current students or the thousands of recent graduates? Probably. Do you think employers outside of Washington had heard of Gonzaga before their basketball team put the school on the map? Marquette graduates have educational recognition the world over, but graduates of SLU--which is historically ranked higher academically--get little name-recognition value outside of St. Louis.

From another angle, great succes in basketball and football is known to significantly increase giving, including giving that funds the endowment and scholarships. If four new players mean the difference between more basketball purgatory and the sweet sixteen, then those four players may enable increased giving that provides scholarship opportunities for many students, including those who don't play sports.

[Clock_Tower]

Will it help me? Probably not. Will it help the 10,000 current students or the thousands of recent graduates? Probably. Do you think employers outside of Washington had heard of Gonzaga before their basketball team put the school on the map? Marquette graduates have educational recognition the world over, but graduates of SLU--which is historically ranked higher academically--get little name-recognition value outside of St. Louis.

From another angle, great succes in basketball and football is known to significantly increase giving, including giving that funds the endowment and scholarships. If four new players mean the difference between more basketball purgatory and the sweet sixteen, then those four players may enable increased giving that provides scholarship opportunities for many students, including those who don't play sports.

Great series of posts.

[Clock_Tower]

Will it help me? Probably not. Will it help the 10,000 current students or the thousands of recent graduates? Probably. Do you think employers outside of Washington had heard of Gonzaga before their basketball team put the school on the map? Marquette graduates have educational recognition the world over, but graduates of SLU--which is historically ranked higher academically--get little name-recognition value outside of St. Louis.

From another angle, great succes in basketball and football is known to significantly increase giving, including giving that funds the endowment and scholarships. If four new players mean the difference between more basketball purgatory and the sweet sixteen, then those four players may enable increased giving that provides scholarship opportunities for many students, including those who don't play sports.

Great series of posts.

[slu72]

Great series of posts.

This subject of "running" off players has been tossed about now for over six months or so. The moralists here have to put themselves in RM's shoes for a better perspective. You are hired for big $$ because of your resume. You get changes implemented in the program that cost the school big $$. Obviously the objective behind all this is to raise the level of the program. You'd better produce. Yet the talent you inherit will not allow you to do this no matter how much "coaching up" you do. Previous management filled open slots with people no one else really wanted, yet you, the new guy, are supposed to somehow win with them. Unreasonable. If you moralists were in RM's position you would be doing the same thing. That is, if you cared about keeping your job. To my way of thinking, moving on at this point, ie seeing these kids go elsewhere, is in the best interests of all involved . Would you really want to stay where you are not wanted, or can't contribute anything beyond being practice fodder? SLU's reputation will not suffer for this. If RM delivers us to the sweet 16 in two years, do you really think Dick Vitale or Billy Packer is going to bring up how RM ran off kids in order to build up the program? The most we can hope for at this stage, if indeed players are going to be run off, is to do it with class and compassion.

[billiken_roy]

Will it help me? Probably not. Will it help the 10,000 current students or the thousands of recent graduates? Probably. Do you think employers outside of Washington had heard of Gonzaga before their basketball team put the school on the map? Marquette graduates have educational recognition the world over, but graduates of SLU--which is historically ranked higher academically--get little name-recognition value outside of St. Louis.

From another angle, great succes in basketball and football is known to significantly increase giving, including giving that funds the endowment and scholarships. If four new players mean the difference between more basketball purgatory and the sweet sixteen, then those four players may enable increased giving that provides scholarship opportunities for many students, including those who don't play sports.

so how many kids have few or monson run off in the last 10 years?

[billiken_roy]

do you really think Dick Vitale or Billy Packer is going to bring up how RM ran off kids in order to build up the program? The most we can hope for at this stage, if indeed players are going to be run off, is to do it with class and compassion.

i dont care what dickie V or billy fudge are saying on tv. i do care what opposing coaches will be telling prospective recruits down the road about slu. and mostly i care what the parents of our student athletes and those student athletes are saying and thinking about having their lives f'd up.

note, as many have said, if the kids wanted to leave that is one thing. but if they were in anyway pushed out the door and end up playing at swic and then heading to siue or transferring to semo when what they really wanted was a marketing degree from saint louis university, no matter how you spray it, that is nasty. slu let those kids down.

[Clock_Tower]

i dont care what dickie V or billy fudge are saying on tv. i do care what opposing coaches will be telling prospective recruits down the road about slu. and mostly i care what the parents of our student athletes and those student athletes are saying and thinking about having their lives f'd up.

note, as many have said, if the kids wanted to leave that is one thing. but if they were in anyway pushed out the door and end up playing at swic and then heading to siue or transferring to semo when what they really wanted was a marketing degree from saint louis university, no matter how you spray it, that is nasty. slu let those kids down.

Roy. Your fears of what influence other coaches might have on recruits has proven to be none. See Cotto and Casssity.

If DM wants his marketing degree, I see no reason why SLU cannot kick him off the team, give him an academic scholarship for his remaining 2 years and let him be the star during intramurals. Would that satisfy your concerns?

[slu72]

i dont care what dickie V or billy fudge are saying on tv. i do care what opposing coaches will be telling prospective recruits down the road about slu. and mostly i care what the parents of our student athletes and those student athletes are saying and thinking about having their lives f'd up.

note, as many have said, if the kids wanted to leave that is one thing. but if they were in anyway pushed out the door and end up playing at swic and then heading to siue or transferring to semo when what they really wanted was a marketing degree from saint louis university, no matter how you spray it, that is nasty. slu let those kids down.

Look this is not a pleasant subject. Not for the player, whose basically being told, "you ain't good enough for what we're trying to do here", the school's image, and certainly not RM, who is in effect firing a 19-20 year old kid. I'm not sure what effect it will have on recruiting. It could spin the other way, "hey, these guys ain't fooling around they want to win and they're going to give me the best chance to be on a winner." To build a winner you need strong competition in practices. For example, if we were to play Davidson, can DM play the Stephen Curry role? Doubt it. As for comparing us to Zaga and the other school, all together different. Those coaches didn't have to settle for this level of talent. By the way, this is not RM's doing or fault. UB recruited these kids. Why? I don't know maybe he saw some potential. RM apparently doesn't. This is unfortunate, not pleasant, but necessary to build the program. I didn't even want to post on this subject as I think it's unfair to any player(s) that may be involved and the staff as well. Furthermore, none of us know if any of this is going to happen. Granted, there appears to be circumstantial evidence of it occuring, but to date nothing concrete. What bugs the hell out of me though is the apparent acceptance by some that we should just stick to our old ways of doing things and continue to produce mediocre teams. This amazes me. For years we have been crying for some kind of breakthrough with this program. We finally get it, and yet we have posters that don't like it, because there's a little pain involved. Just let RM do his thing. As long as he ain't cheating and putting the program at risk, let him go for it. We may never get this opportunity again.

[Clock_Tower]

Look this is not a pleasant subject. Not for the player, whose basically being told, "you ain't good enough for what we're trying to do here", the school's image, and certainly not RM, who is in effect firing a 19-20 year old kid. I'm not sure what effect it will have on recruiting. It could spin the other way, "hey, these guys ain't fooling around they want to win and they're going to give me the best chance to be on a winner." To build a winner you need strong competition in practices. For example, if we were to play Davidson, can DM play the Stephen Curry role? Doubt it. As for comparing us to Zaga and the other school, all together different. Those coaches didn't have to settle for this level of talent. By the way, this is not RM's doing or fault. UB recruited these kids. Why? I don't know maybe he saw some potential. RM apparently doesn't. This is unfortunate, not pleasant, but necessary to build the program. I didn't even want to post on this subject as I think it's unfair to any player(s) that may be involved and the staff as well. Furthermore, none of us know if any of this is going to happen. Granted, there appears to be circumstantial evidence of it occuring, but to date nothing concrete. What bugs the hell out of me though is the apparent acceptance by some that we should just stick to our old ways of doing things and continue to produce mediocre teams. This amazes me. For years we have been crying for some kind of breakthrough with this program. We finally get it, and yet we have posters that don't like it, because there's a little pain involved. Just let RM do his thing. As long as he ain't cheating and putting the program at risk, let him go for it. We may never get this opportunity again.

Two excellent posts.

[jimbofive]

If DM wants his marketing degree, I see no reason why SLU cannot kick him off the team, give him an academic scholarship for his remaining 2 years and let him be the star during intramurals. Would that satisfy your concerns?

Sounds like a horrible, unfair college experience, huh?

[ACE]

And while we hang on to four of Sodies recruits that will never get off the bench we can continue to have people make snide remarks about how our million dollar coach isn't any good and how they expected immediate gratification for the million dollar investment etc.

Outstanding post! Sodie's soldiers complained about the coach more during the first month of the season than they did the entire BS tenure. They want RM to be patient with some of these marginal players, yet they demonstrated no patience early this past season as the coach was trying figure out what to do with a team with major weaknesses at the 1, 4, 5 and little depth.

[ACE]

Who is saying that "our million dollar coach isn't any good"? I have not seen that view expressed by anyone on this board. Maybe you are just trying to make a point, but I think most people understand that Majerus will build a program OVER TIME and not overnight.

Majerus clearly fumbled the ball on several facets of managing the team and his position THIS first season, but that is not any where near the same as saying he isn't any good.

Can you cite a few examples to back up this claim that he "clearly fumbled the ball"... I'm not sure it is clear to everybody.

In contrast, the Sodie critics have been able to cite a series of recruiting failures that can't be disputed.