Chaifetz Website and West Pine Gym

[Pistol]

Some joker apparently took the domain name www.chaifetzarena.com, so the official site is www.thechaifetzarena.com. I've been to the official site before, but never paid attention to this difference. Timmerman mentioned it in his blog recently, I thought it was interesting. The anonymous individual also took the .net and .org versions. The site is nothing but a blue page with the three site names listed. He or she probably thought that jumping on them early would force SLU to buy them. I assume this was also Steve's original intent with this site (just kidding, Steve). Anyway, looks like SLU isn't taking the bait.

Also from a comment from Timmerman when I asked what they planned to do with West Pine Gym in that post last week:

"It's hard for me to believe that you could successfully (or economically) renovate West Pine Gym, even if you gutted the interior and rebuilt it to install offices and classrooms. And as it currently exists, it would make lousy office space for any program moving in, and you'd still have a large gymnasium space in the middle. It's prime campus real estate, fairly centrally located, near the law and business schools and the library. I know there are plans for some departments to use that space, but I would think it would have to be in a new building. (I also have to admit I'm not sure as I write this if there are any historic building designations that would hinder what they call adaptive re-use.)

As for the seismology equipment, I assume it can be moved and relocated, but that was behind a locked door that I couldn't get to."

[Box and Won]

I wonder if West Pine could be converted to a theater or performing arts space, freeing up space in Xavier Hall for other uses.

[SLU_Nick]

SLU is still desperately in need for some housing. They did away with almost all of the single apartments when the enrollment kept increasing every year. Then they decided to destroy half of Grand Forest with the arena. West pine really should be replaced with student housing of some kind.

[davidnark]

I suspect that TT's belief that West Pine could not be converted into a separate use is just based upon his impression from a tour. If the foundation and support structure is solid, they could literally gut everything but the foundation and support structure and build anything they wanted that fit within the remaining space. Canon Design is doing this for an old warehouse/parking structure on Clark. This is also how the old Sporting News warehouse on 20th street was rennovated into condos.

[Box and Won]

I think Canon has done a lot of design work for SLU too - the new research building, Parks, etc.

[DoctorB]

I am checking into the latest update on West Pine gym, partly due to this board and partly because I got curious.... If I hear something I'll report next week.

Last I heard (last fall) is

1) yes it is historical and we will keep the shell; and 2) will reconvert into offices and classroom space.

2 options I heard a while back were -- combine with Des Pere next door for computer space/facilities; or possible extension for the library which is also very badly needed (did you know that the floors are sagging and that there are serious structural problems in Pius??) Main thing is I do not see SLU demolishing the shell of the building.

As for more student housing, if there are even one or 2 empty beds somewhere that is not going to happen. Last I heard there are always a afew empty beds on campus. Could be wrong on that one though.

stay tuned.

[MusicCityBilliken]

I wonder if West Pine could be converted to a theater or performing arts space, freeing up space in Xavier Hall for other uses.

Unless it changed from 35 years ago when I attended classes in Des Peres, I would take Des Peres Hall with it. We used to call the building 'Despair'.

This way they have a nice chunk of land to develop.

[SluSignGuy]

Unless it changed from 35 years ago when I attended classes in Des Peres, I would take Des Peres Hall with it. We used to call the building 'Despair'.

This way they have a nice chunk of land to develop.

Coming from the town of Des Peres, Missouri...one could say I come from Despair Misery

[NextYearBill]

They should move Pappy's into westpine. Has anyone been there yet??? Best kept secret in mid-town.

[jimbofive]

Coming from the town of Des Peres, Missouri...one could say I come from Despair Misery

Hahahaha, that's the worst sounding place I've EVER heard of. hahahahaha

[Box and Won]

Hahahaha, that's the worst sounding place I've EVER heard of. hahahahaha

Steve and I share the same hometown. It's a glorious, glorious place.

[Box and Won]

I am checking into the latest update on West Pine gym, partly due to this board and partly because I got curious.... If I hear something I'll report next week.

Last I heard (last fall) is

1) yes it is historical and we will keep the shell; and 2) will reconvert into offices and classroom space.

2 options I heard a while back were -- combine with Des Pere next door for computer space/facilities; or possible extension for the library which is also very badly needed (did you know that the floors are sagging and that there are serious structural problems in Pius??) Main thing is I do not see SLU demolishing the shell of the building.

As for more student housing, if there are even one or 2 empty beds somewhere that is not going to happen. Last I heard there are always a afew empty beds on campus. Could be wrong on that one though.

stay tuned.

I didn't know that about the library. I wonder what the long-term plans for it are. It really is a great building.

[Pistol]

I am checking into the latest update on West Pine gym, partly due to this board and partly because I got curious.... If I hear something I'll report next week.

Last I heard (last fall) is

1) yes it is historical and we will keep the shell; and 2) will reconvert into offices and classroom space.

2 options I heard a while back were -- combine with Des Pere next door for computer space/facilities; or possible extension for the library which is also very badly needed (did you know that the floors are sagging and that there are serious structural problems in Pius??) Main thing is I do not see SLU demolishing the shell of the building.

As for more student housing, if there are even one or 2 empty beds somewhere that is not going to happen. Last I heard there are always a afew empty beds on campus. Could be wrong on that one though.

stay tuned.

I knew Pius had some issues but libraries are the toughest buildings to change/renovate/expand/move. In a dream world, they would tear it down and rebuild a good one where it stands. That is near impossible, though. I don't understand how WPG could serve as an extra library space, either. I always hated Pius- very ugly and hard to navigate. Then again, I didn't even use it until the end of my sophomore year and probably went there about 5 or 6 times ever.

There are always a few empty beds on campus, but that is more a function of mid-semester changes than lack of demand. If they tore down WPG and built student housing, they could fill it. I worked for the housing department for two years. Unless something dramatic has changed since 2005, the housing department would absolutely love more rooms. They want to bring a lot of those off-campus students onto campus.

The main issue I have (and this is coming from a person Box and Won would call a "building hugger") is that WPG is essentially a big empty room surrounded by horribly undersized rooms. What use could any department possibly have for a former gym, and an ancient one at that? The offices around the gym are too small, the ceilings are too low, the hallways are too narrow, the cost to maintain the place is too high.

It would be short-sighted to try to reuse it now. Tear it down now before some other department starts depending on it.

[davidnark]

The main issue I have (and this is coming from a person Box and Won would call a "building hugger") is that WPG is essentially a big empty room surrounded by horribly undersized rooms. What use could any department possibly have for a former gym, and an ancient one at that? The offices around the gym are too small, the ceilings are too low, the hallways are too narrow, the cost to maintain the place is too high.

If you are going to reuse it, I think you would literally gut everything but the support beams, which would include the seating, gym floor, stairways, offices, etc. This would give a nice open space with flexibilty to build whatever you need inside.

[bonwich]

They should move Pappy's into westpine. Has anyone been there yet??? Best kept secret in mid-town.

Given that it's been selling out of food well before closing time almost every day, it ain't much of a secret.

[NextYearBill]

Given that it's been selling out of food well before closing time almost every day, it ain't much of a secret.

Who do you think buys all that food everyday? ME!

[Box and Won]

If you are going to reuse it, I think you would literally gut everything but the support beams, which would include the seating, gym floor, stairways, offices, etc. This would give a nice open space with flexibilty to build whatever you need inside.

My plan would be to keep the facade, tear down everything behind it, recycle the brick and use it to construct an entirely new building behind the facade. It really is handsome and even though it's been used as a gymnasium for years, it's still fairly academic-looking.

[Pistol]

My plan would be to keep the facade, tear down everything behind it, recycle the brick and use it to construct an entirely new building behind the facade. It really is handsome and even though it's been used as a gymnasium for years, it's still fairly academic-looking.

That seems more likely to me than just gutting the inside per Nark's suggestion, but even that would be a challenge. The walls, floors, stairs, etc.- everything in there is very, very thick old brick, stone, or concrete. Some of those walls are like a bomb shelter. I would also suspect most of them are load-bearing and that it would be nearly impossible to change the layout at all. I'm guessing they'll either keep it pretty close to what it is now or raze it completely. I hope they just demolish it to keep the campus modern. If I were a prospective student or parent interested in a particular department of the school and that department was using an 80+ year old former gym for offices, I might have some second thoughts.

[Box and Won]

That seems more likely to me than just gutting the inside per Nark's suggestion, but even that would be a challenge. The walls, floors, stairs, etc.- everything in there is very, very thick old brick, stone, or concrete. Some of those walls are like a bomb shelter. I would also suspect most of them are load-bearing and that it would be nearly impossible to change the layout at all. I'm guessing they'll either keep it pretty close to what it is now or raze it completely. I hope they just demolish it to keep the campus modern. If I were a prospective student or parent interested in a particular department of the school and that department was using an 80+ year old former gym for offices, I might have some second thoughts.

I guess whatever happens, like Tom T. said, WPG is on a prime piece of campus real estate, so it would be a great place for something prominent. The U. could use WPG, Des Peres Hall and the swimming pools for a really substantial building.

[bonwich]

If I were a prospective student or parent interested in a particular department of the school and that department was using an 80+ year old former gym for offices, I might have some second thoughts.

Yeah, the University of Wisconsin has been having application shortfalls for just such a reason. How could they possibly house their admissions office in, and start all their campus tours, in a facility just like that called, ironically, "the old gym"?

[davidnark]

My plan would be to keep the facade, tear down everything behind it

Box, I thought I had you figured out, but now you have lost me. Last week, you were upset because they tore down this generic-looking and dilapidated apartment building at Olive and Sarah that I personally believed was one of the scariest structures in the entire city

but you are OK with demolishing all but the facade of this amazing and historic building?

[Pistol]

Yeah, the University of Wisconsin has been having application shortfalls for just such a reason. How could they possibly house their admissions office in, and start all their campus tours, in a facility just like that called, ironically, "the old gym"?

Comparing the WPG with the Old Red Gym is just not right. Every building is different. Both are old gyms; one is a significantly larger facility with plenty of usable space and is on the National Register of Historical Places (since 1993); the other can claim none of that. I'm going to assume you've walked around the WPG enough to know what it's like in there. Now look at this:

http://www.jgwaarchitects.com/portfolio/ad...nsin-armory.htm

http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/uwhist/redgym.html

It's not even close. Even if by some miracle SLU is able to convert the WPG into something like that, it would not even deserve the title "poor man's version" of the Old Red Gym. When you look at the list of all the departments housed in the ORG, those groups at SLU would have to move from significantly larger spaces in DuBourg Hall and the Busch Student Center into smaller, older spaces in the WPG. The ORG was originally built in 1894 for a number of uses; the WPG went up 26 years later pretty much just as a gym and the basic offices that go with it. I would also be surprised if SLU has the same amount of people who love the WPG as Madison had for the Old Red Gym, and therefore I would assume that there will be a lot less interest and money people are willing to devote to restoring it properly for other use. I emphasize "properly" because as it stands now, there are no other reasonable uses except as a horribly dated athletic facility.

[Clock_Tower]

Complete double standard. Where's the Histerical Society when it comes to SLU.? Try knocking down old buildings in the City, or elsewhere, but be prepared for lengthy court battles.

At SLU, knock down an old buildings on or near campus (old dorm by Simon Rec Center and replace with swimming pool and lawn), no problem. Want to knock down West Pine Gym now? Now problem. Not sure if SLU is just smart about paying off the right people or that SLU is smart by not promising to build a parking lot in its place. Makes me wonder if anyone would object if Fr. Biondi tried to take a wrecking ball to Couples House.

[Pistol]

Complete double standard. Where's the Histerical Society when it comes to SLU.? Try knocking down old buildings in the City, or elsewhere, but be prepared for lengthy court battles.

At SLU, knock down an old buildings on or near campus (old dorm by Simon Rec Center and replace with swimming pool and lawn), no problem. Want to knock down West Pine Gym now? Now problem. Not sure if SLU is just smart about paying off the right people or that SLU is smart by not promising to build a parking lot in its place. Makes me wonder if anyone would object if Fr. Biondi tried to take a wrecking ball to Couples House.

Did you mean "Hysterical" or "Historical?" That would give me more insight as to how you actually feel about preserving the building.

As with the example of the Old Red Gym at Wisconsin-Madison, there is absolutely no comparison between the WPG and Cupples House. The Cupples House has been on the National Register of Historic Places since 1976 and cited by the National Victorian Society as an outstanding example of historic preservation and restoration in 1989. And the West Pine Gym- none of that.

Your argument about buildings in the city and buildings on SLU's campus makes no sense to me. SLU deservedly has autonomy over the buildings on its campus and can do whatever it wants with them (unless they're on the Historic Register, like Cupples House). If WPG were in another area of the city, not on a university campus, of course it would be a more lengthy process to tear down. It has nothing to do with historic designation- because it has none- but rather because it costs money to tear down and the city wouldn't do that unless there were development plans for that space.

For all of those who really want to keep the West Pine Gym standing, how familiar are you with the building? Have you seen more than just the entrance, gym, and stands at a couple games? If that's all your knowledge of the building, I encourage you to step in there sometime and kick the tires. Walk around, check out the hallways, offices, bathrooms, basement, and whatever isn't locked up. If after further examination of the building you can think of a reasonable way to renovate/reuse the building, I would be interested to hear it.

I absolutely love old architecture and support the preservation of good buildings from the past, and it breaks my heart that so many significant buildings have been torn down. The West Pine Gym is not one of them and the university could make much, much better use of that prime campus space.

[Box and Won]

Box, I thought I had you figured out, but now you have lost me. Last week, you were upset because they tore down this generic-looking and dilapidated apartment building at Olive and Sarah that I personally believed was one of the scariest structures in the entire city

but you are OK with demolishing all but the facade of this amazing and historic building?

David, as you know, I am a complex being.

The apartment building on Olive had some issues, but if renovated, could have served a pressing need (student housing) and potentially spurred on other development in the surrounding area. Buildings in way worse shape than that one have been successfully rehabbed all over the city.

The difference between the apartment building and West Pine Gym is that the apartment building was not functionally obsolete. Renovating the apartment building would have been a much easier task than converting West Pine Gym into something suited for academic purposes. I was a fan of the old Arena too, but I knew that it would have been very difficult to reuse it for anything else - same with WPG.

I figure with SLU's track record when it comes to historic preservation - some hits, probably more misses - perhaps saving the facade and constructing a new building behind it would be a good compromise. A new structure could take architectural cues from the existing facade and the result could be something even better than what we already have.