Chaifetz Website and West Pine Gym

[Clock_Tower]

Did you mean "Hysterical" or "Historical?" That would give me more insight as to how you actually feel about preserving the building.

As with the example of the Old Red Gym at Wisconsin-Madison, there is absolutely no comparison between the WPG and Cupples House. The Cupples House has been on the National Register of Historic Places since 1976 and cited by the National Victorian Society as an outstanding example of historic preservation and restoration in 1989. And the West Pine Gym- none of that.

Your argument about buildings in the city and buildings on SLU's campus makes no sense to me. SLU deservedly has autonomy over the buildings on its campus and can do whatever it wants with them (unless they're on the Historic Register, like Cupples House). If WPG were in another area of the city, not on a university campus, of course it would be a more lengthy process to tear down. It has nothing to do with historic designation- because it has none- but rather because it costs money to tear down and the city wouldn't do that unless there were development plans for that space.

For all of those who really want to keep the West Pine Gym standing, how familiar are you with the building? Have you seen more than just the entrance, gym, and stands at a couple games? If that's all your knowledge of the building, I encourage you to step in there sometime and kick the tires. Walk around, check out the hallways, offices, bathrooms, basement, and whatever isn't locked up. If after further examination of the building you can think of a reasonable way to renovate/reuse the building, I would be interested to hear it.

I absolutely love old architecture and support the preservation of good buildings from the past, and it breaks my heart that so many significant buildings have been torn down. The West Pine Gym is not one of them and the university could make much, much better use of that prime campus space.

You're right. Sorry about the confusion. Not trying to make a comparison to the Old Red Gym of which I know nothing about. Instead, I have been in West Pine on numerous occasions including, most recently, this past Fall to meet with Margo, Mark Wright and others in the "Hall of Fame Room" I believe?

I too love old architecture and therefore don't think SLU should tear it down. Part of my post was intended to be a joke - the part that Fr. Biondi might even go after the historic building, Cupples House, like he did the Scholars House to make way for the new business school? Fr. Biondi, during my time there, knocked down Clarke's and that whole row of town houses. SLU continues to be surrounded by buildings and structures which can be torn down and replaced with modern and more practical ones. I agree that the costs to renovate might be too great and the engineering limitations too significant to renovate West Pine into a new productive use.

My question, therefore, is: Why not just let the old building live? Why the need to either tear it down or renovate it? No one builds these kinds of structures anymore and therefore it is, in fact, a historical building. I don't care if it has a placque on it or not. Other schools often keep old and/or outdated buildings as a symbol of their past and/or would use it for intramurals and other student events. I presume students will not be using any portion of the Chaveitz for intramurals and other such activities. I, for one, would rather play sports and/or watch my friends play in West Pine gym than in the Simon Rec Plex. Got to believe alot of older Alums than me would like to see West Pine live and would be willing to get their wallets out to do so.

[Pistol]

You're right. Sorry about the confusion. Not trying to make a comparison to the Old Red Gym of which I know nothing about. Instead, I have been in West Pine on numerous occasions including, most recently, this past Fall to meet with Margo, Mark Wright and others in the "Hall of Fame Room" I believe?

I too love old architecture and therefore don't think SLU should tear it down. Part of my post was intended to be a joke - the part that Fr. Biondi might even go after the historic building, Cupples House, like he did the Scholars House to make way for the new business school? Fr. Biondi, during my time there, knocked down Clarke's and that whole row of town houses. SLU continues to be surrounded by buildings and structures which can be torn down and replaced with modern and more practical ones. I agree that the costs to renovate might be too great and the engineering limitations too significant to renovate West Pine into a new productive use.

My question, therefore, is: Why not just let the old building live? Why the need to either tear it down or renovate it? No one builds these kinds of structures anymore and therefore it is, in fact, a historical building. I don't care if it has a placque on it or not. Other schools often keep old and/or outdated buildings as a symbol of their past and/or would use it for intramurals and other student events. I presume students will not be using any portion of the Chaveitz for intramurals and other such activities. I, for one, would rather play sports and/or watch my friends play in West Pine gym than in the Simon Rec Plex. Got to believe alot of older Alums than me would like to see West Pine live and would be willing to get their wallets out to do so.

Chances are it will stand for at least a while. I don't know if there is the money or sense of urgency to make anything happen. My guess is that a couple other departments will creep in and have some minimal uses there, but no major renovations will take place. They won't put much money into it other than very basic upkeep and it will deteriorate for a few more years until they finally decide to knock it down. Just a guess.

I know that the housing department would desperately want more housing to draw some of the off-campus students into shiny new on-campus housing. They area at Vandeventer and Laclede was supposed to be more Village apartments before they ran out of money and had to come up with the dreadful Trova sculpture park- which is now, thankfully, an extra field for intramurals/rugby/ultimate frisbee/general use. They also had to tear down some Grand Forest apartments for the arena. The problem is that funding is never what they need it to be to get their master plans done. They wanted Clemens and Walsh to be converted into brand new suite-style quads for freshman with a general room adjoining four to six single bedrooms. They were short on funds and also ran into a problem with load-bearing walls in Clemens. It still got renovated, but not to the point they wanted.

I don't know what else the space could be used for, but I'm sure there are plenty of departments with some ideas. I am more a fan of the old brick buildings in Midtown than those built between WWII and the 1980s (Ritter, Marguerite, Pius Library, Fusz, the science buildings and Kelley Auditorium) that SLU either built or bought, all of which are kind of ugly. I'm looking forward to the day those can be replaced. I like to keep the good old buildings around, but I really don't see much use in the WPG.

[bonwich]

Comparing the WPG with the Old Red Gym is just not right. Every building is different. Both are old gyms; one is a significantly larger facility with plenty of usable space and is on the National Register of Historical Places (since 1993); the other can claim none of that. I'm going to assume you've walked around the WPG enough to know what it's like in there. Now look at this:

http://www.jgwaarchitects.com/portfolio/ad...nsin-armory.htm

http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/uwhist/redgym.html

It's not even close. Even if by some miracle SLU is able to convert the WPG into something like that, it would not even deserve the title "poor man's version" of the Old Red Gym. When you look at the list of all the departments housed in the ORG, those groups at SLU would have to move from significantly larger spaces in DuBourg Hall and the Busch Student Center into smaller, older spaces in the WPG. The ORG was originally built in 1894 for a number of uses; the WPG went up 26 years later pretty much just as a gym and the basic offices that go with it. I would also be surprised if SLU has the same amount of people who love the WPG as Madison had for the Old Red Gym, and therefore I would assume that there will be a lot less interest and money people are willing to devote to restoring it properly for other use. I emphasize "properly" because as it stands now, there are no other reasonable uses except as a horribly dated athletic facility.

Sorry, I've been lounging on the beach.

It has nothing to do with sheer numbers or size. It has to do with respect for your campus' history, which Wisconsin has repeatedly illustrated, and SLU has often (DeSmet Hall, Sodality Hall) ignored.

If you search "Old Red Gym" within the UW-M site, you'll see that there was serious talk of tearing it down as far back as 1959. And that the National Historic Landmark designation was done by the U in 1994 as a precursor for the adaptive reuse. Ironically, all that info is contained in one of the links you cited.

The most cogent point is that UW-M commissioned a major adaptive reuse study on which it could make a rational keep-or-tear-down decision. As a private institution, SLU doesn't have the same leeway to pay for such a study -- but I think, on balance, they'd be better to take their time and consider whether it can be saved.

[Pistol]

Sorry, I've been lounging on the beach.

It has nothing to do with sheer numbers or size. It has to do with respect for your campus' history, which Wisconsin has repeatedly illustrated, and SLU has often (DeSmet Hall, Sodality Hall) ignored.

If you search "Old Red Gym" within the UW-M site, you'll see that there was serious talk of tearing it down as far back as 1959. And that the National Historic Landmark designation was done by the U in 1994 as a precursor for the adaptive reuse. Ironically, all that info is contained in one of the links you cited.

The most cogent point is that UW-M commissioned a major adaptive reuse study on which it could make a rational keep-or-tear-down decision. As a private institution, SLU doesn't have the same leeway to pay for such a study -- but I think, on balance, they'd be better to take their time and consider whether it can be saved.

I don't see what's ironic about the information you state; I knew that was in the links and I read them before I pasted them. The only difference is I thought the designation came in 1993, not 1994. The push to save historic buildings is a relatively recent development. There was very little building on a large scale in this country once the Great Depression hit until after WWII, and then everyone was ruled by a mentality of progress and pushing forward, and thus tearing down old stuff and rebuilding it, a practice that unfortunately lasted longer than it should have (and as I said before, the ugliest buildings on SLU's campus and pretty much everywhere else generally went up between the 1940s and 1990s). Wisconsin is lucky they just let it sit for a while instead of tearing it down because that structure is an absolute gem.

I honestly don't think SLU is going to do a major adaptive reuse study. If they do (or even a smaller version of one), that's great and I fully support it, but I just don't see it happening.

At the end of the day, the fact is that the Old Red Gym in Madison is a much, much better building than our West Pine Gym. It's a huge structure that had a ton of possibilities when they started to rehab it. I promise you that the WPG doesn't have close to those possibilities. Structurally it is completely different than the Old Red Gym; about the only common denominator is that both contain a gymnasium and have old brick exteriors. If you've seen both buildings, I'm surprised you have such high hopes for the WPG.

[bonwich]

I don't see what's ironic about the information you state; I knew that was in the links and I read them before I pasted them. The only difference is I thought the designation came in 1993, not 1994. I honestly don't think SLU is going to do a major adaptive reuse study. If they do (or even a smaller version of one), that's great and I fully support it, but I just don't see it happening.

At the end of the day, the fact is that the Old Red Gym in Madison is a much, much better building than our West Pine Gym. It's a huge structure that had a ton of possibilities when they started to rehab it. I promise you that the WPG doesn't have close to those possibilities.

The irony is that the story you cited 1) says the Old Red Gym was neglected and pretty much disliked; 2) talks about going through exactly the same process SLU should go through with the West Pine Gym. You say tomato...

From 1976-8, I used to jog in the West Pine Gym. I saw Harry Chapin and Arlo Guthrie in there. It was a heaping hulk.

Friom 1979-81, I registered in the Old Red Gym. It was a heaping hulk. (So, by the way, was the Science Building, which actually had lots of offices and labs in it.)

The Old Red Gym was a large heaping hulk. West Pine Gym was (is) a smaller heaping hulk. At similar points in their lives, they were both utter pieces of crap. UW decrappified theirs; we can do the same on a smaller scale. (For example: Save the facade, drop in four 200-seat lecture halls like the underground ones east of Grand, then maybe put a floor of offices above the lecture halls.)

Given the Spring Mall, there's no room to build to the west of WPG, even if you totally demolish it and Despair.

In any event, get an architect involved (Gene Mackey comes to mind, especially given his current relationship with the U). And actually listen to him this time.

Time to head over to Roger Dean. Now there 's some classy architecture!

[Pistol]

The irony is that the story you cited 1) says the Old Red Gym was neglected and pretty much disliked; 2) talks about going through exactly the same process SLU should go through with the West Pine Gym. You say tomato...

From 1976-8, I used to jog in the West Pine Gym. I saw Harry Chapin and Arlo Guthrie in there. It was a heaping hulk.

Friom 1979-81, I registered in the Old Red Gym. It was a heaping hulk. (So, by the way, was the Science Building, which actually had lots of offices and labs in it.)

The Old Red Gym was a large heaping hulk. West Pine Gym was (is) a smaller heaping hulk. At similar points in their lives, they were both utter pieces of crap. UW decrappified theirs; we can do the same on a smaller scale. (For example: Save the facade, drop in four 200-seat lecture halls like the underground ones east of Grand, then maybe put a floor of offices above the lecture halls.)

Given the Spring Mall, there's no room to build to the west of WPG, even if you totally demolish it and Despair.

In any event, get an architect involved (Gene Mackey comes to mind, especially given his current relationship with the U). And actually listen to him this time.

Time to head over to Roger Dean. Now there 's some classy architecture!

My point was that the ORG went through its period of dislike in an era were building preservation was not important to people. My other point was that if WPG goes through the same process as the ORG, I would expect a much different result. A heaping hulk from the exterior- like a castle- the ORG seems to me to have been built with much different (i.e. much thinner and probably less crucial) interior walls. The WPG is more of a heaping hulk on the inside because its walls are bomb shelter-thick. My guess is that most of these can't go anywhere if the building is to stand. Granted, I admit I do not have a knowledge of the ORG as it stood before the rehab; I saw it in 2006.

I like that you mention Gene Mackey. If he and his firm got involved, that would make me very confident that they'd come up with something special for either the building or the space. They've done some great stuff lately in LEED construction. That's probably impossible for the old WPG but an LEED building would be great to have in that space on the Frost campus to go along with the LEED Silver-certified new medical research building over on Grand and Chouteau.

[moytoy12]

Maybe they could just use WPG as an overflow sleeping area for Poindexter and the rest of the nerds.

[Box and Won]

Maybe they could just use WPG as an overflow sleeping area for Poindexter and the rest of the nerds.

Or a training facility for the track and field team:

[jimbofive]

Maybe they could just use WPG as an overflow sleeping area for Poindexter and the rest of the nerds.

I vote for a badass laser tag emporium/brothel/milk bar. I'll bet no other campus in the Midwest can say they have that. No private university at least.

Oriflamme could hand out little black light keychains and a free week's pass at freshman move-in; I think the reception would be huge.

[TheChosenOne]

I vote for a badass laser tag emporium/brothel/milk bar. I'll bet no other campus in the Midwest can say they have that. No private university at least.

Oriflamme could hand out little black light keychains and a free week's pass at freshman move-in; I think the reception would be huge.

I think an indoor paintball facility would a phenominal idea.

My other thought would be to convert West Pine into an indoor beach like they have in Japan:

http://www.impactlab.com/2006/03/02/japans...man-made-beach/

[Pistol]

I think an indoor paintball facility would a phenominal idea.

My other thought would be to convert West Pine into an indoor beach like they have in Japan:

http://www.impactlab.com/2006/03/02/japans...man-made-beach/

Why not indoor skiing? It worked in Dubai:

http://www.skidxb.com/English/gallery1_eng...mid=1&sid=4

[Box and Won]

Doesn't the old armory at Grand and 40 (or technically Market) have all kinds of indoor sports?

[jimbofive]

Doesn't the old armory at Grand and 40 (or technically Market) have all kinds of indoor sports?

Never heard of that, know what it's called, officially? Also, the Ski Dubai thing looks pretty amazing as well, I was skeptical after viewing the first couple pictures, but what a complex.