Long-time reader, but first time-poster

[MissouriAlum]

I've thought a lot about this topic and feel this is the right time to post this with Roy's recent departure. I'm not trying to stir anything up, but I just want legit responses to this question.

Before I went away to school in Columbia, I'd lived my whole life in St. Louis. There was no doubt that Missouri was my favorite team, but the Billikens were definitely second at that point. I remember going to the Arena to see Anfernee Hardaway in Grawer's last year and I remember going to CUSA tournament whenever that was in town. I remember many Saturday watching a Tigers' game and a Billikens' game back-to-back often flipping back and forth between the two (or at least checking on the Billikens' game during commercial breaks). I remember all those goofy guys that Spoonhour brought in (Chris Heinrich comes to mind first and foremost) that seemed terrible, but helped win a lot of games. It was a good time to be a local college basketball fan.

My time in school at MU coincided with Norm's last year and then obviously Quin. Obviously, Quin's entire tenure can't be remembered very fondly by almost all MU fans except for a few memorable players (Clarence Gilbert and TJ Soyoye come to mind) mostly because of the scandals more than the basketball. I think most MU fans, whether they were happy or not with how things were going in Columbia took a bunker approach towards all outsiders (ie. anyone not MU fans). At least that's what I did.

At that point,this was when I really turned against SLU mainly because of what I read on this board. I wasn't happy about the $'s in all the posts and the derogatory remarks about "Boone County Tech" or whatever other terms were used. These times really caused me to view the hardcore Billiken fanbase as really arrogant which in turn caused me to root against them. This was the first year that this was noticeable since SLU actually had really legit aspirations which obviously have not turned out that well. It's been really strange for me to lump SLU in with Duke, UCONN, and Louisville as the teams that I enjoy watching lose. Instead of coming to this board to get updates on how things were, I started coming for my own amusement during the various meltdowns (I'm not saying this is a healthy thing to do, but I definitely took a look for that purpose after the St. Bon and Duquesne games).

Sorry for the long buildup here and I'm getting to my point. I felt like I had to explain this to add legitimacy to what I'm saying since I think there are a lot of other St. Louisans in the same boat. I don't really want to dislike the Billikens. I almost feel like I was driven to it (obviously Quin Snyder, Tony Harvey, and Mike Alden, among others also played a part). My question is, does this board feel it should be acceptable to be both a MU and SLU fan? I think most people from St. Louis (casual fan and really hardcore MU fans as well) would want both to succeed. A lot of the negativity from the SLU side comes from the teams not playing and I'm not going to get into that (I would think Mike Anderson will give SLU a shot when he gets his recruits in. Sounds bad, but I think that's just the reality). Honestly, if there was any school in the state that I would want to dislike, it would be SMS due to all the political aspects. There's not much use posting this on Tigerboard because MU fans only care about SLU if they are from St. Louis or live in St. Louis. In my opinion, that's kind of just a fact so that's why I'm only posting this here.

I guess all I'm asking for is a little respect. Both universities have different mission statements and both are working toward those different goals the way they should. I would argue with anyone that says both aren't good schools. They just bring something different to the table that works toward the overall goal of educating the state of Missouri. Now that we have a coach with integrity (and hopefully soon after, will have an AD with some), I'd like to think it's possible for both sides (by that I mean everyone from or living in St. Louis) to at least earn respect from each other on the basketball floor and leave the venom out of it.

This is really long, but hopefully it's not rambling and argues my point.

[billikendave]

welcome to the board but come on...

SLU has been listening to Missouri fans blasting the program as far back as I can remember. SLU fans have heard over the past 25 years that Missouri has no need to play SLU because it would be their "Superbowl" and Missouri has nothing to gain and everything to lose. This has been going on for the 25 years which I have been following SLU. Sorry, 25 years of condescension by Missouri adminstration/coachs for blanket refusal to schedule and the surrounding rhetoric can make a SLU fan revel a bit in the disaster that was Missouri under Quin. Accompany this with Missouri fans -- see the Tigerboard faithful -- you may understand the distain for Missouri by many

I think you will also notice by looking at similar situations (private v. public) around the country -- Marquette v. Wisconson. Louisville v. Kentucky, Duke v. N.C. that there is not typically a lot of love between the two schools.

For what it is worth, there are many on the board who consider themselves Missouri/SLU fans. It is possible and for the most part, they are respected on the board.

[Cowboy]

i used to like watching mizzou get beat for the following reasons - norm's obsession was winning the big 8, well, you and 7 others cared about that - quinn knew nothing - i was at harpo's in stl when he was on his introductory tour and he got a big ovation for saying we'll kick slu's ass but didn't play after that 3 game series- but i want both mizzou and slu to find success - but if slu plays mizzou my loyalty is in no way compromised, i will wear my billiken blue

when posters on this board take shots at mizzou about allegations of cheating or actual cheating, slu does not have a lily white past in that area itself, so when does that stain disappear?? i never got a response to that one

i think there is some jealousy of how mizzou gets treated (better) in stl than slu, but imo there are more mizzou fans in stl than slu fans so the media goes to what sells and if slu would win it would get better coverage

i also love it when duke gets beat, so i love their current 3 game streak

welcome to the board, but don't expect respect from most on it

[MissouriAlum]

I agree with you on basically everything that you said.

I'm in no way defending Quin. I think he was an idiot and he will be remembered as such. I actually have more of a problem with Alden since he is the one that sold the program out.

Norm was old and stubborn. SLU and MU should have been playing in the 90's when they were both good, but didn't because Norm didn't think that he had to.

The media coverage is a weird issue since I know most MU folks think they get the short-end of it even though they have alums reporting in some instances. Cusamano and Ramsey seem to be so visible and positive about SLU most of the time and I don't think MU has anyone like those two in the area (Slaten seems to be big MU sometimes but he doesn't really count to me). MU folks also believe that a certain amount of unusual "investigative" reporting increased their problems. If no one is happy with the coverage in the area (SLU, MU, or I'm sure UI), than that's a different problem to me.

I guess this was just my way to try and figure out why I don't root for the Billikens anymore. This was my attempt for the SLU fanbase to win me back over. It's weird because I don't think that SLU-MU should be as polarizing as it is at least for me. I feel like I should be able to root for both, but my heart won't let me for some reason now. It's the only STL team I don't root for at this point and that's a little weird for me. I live out of the area now so I only see what I want anyway. No harm done I guess.

[Basketbill]

yet very prevalent here in St. Louis......if your team does not win then you root against the other teams..... Clearly you projected your anger at quin and his cronies at SLU, perhaps given a push by some of the holier than though posts here. It is not uncommon to route against people or teams that "betrayed" the fan. The media here fans the flames a bit. Once a marginal player spurns a St. Louis team......they follow them and gloat if they do poorly. Just watch what happens with Weaver this year. I have never lived in a city that followed the players who left town and ridiculed them if they did poorly.

I also find it odd that the media fans the flames of MVC v A10, as it seems if I were a sports division I would prefer to have as many leagues as possible come to my town especially if they are solid leagues. Why not have two BCS and 2 of the best non BCS basketball conferences have a presence. This should be enjoyed, not degraded. This town has some great Basketball played here every year, the Braggin' rights, SLU's games, MVC tourney, and I hope we can developed a great pre conference regional tourney. What happens though is the media pits one against the other at times.

I wonder if it stems from St. Louis being a little close minded and parochial; those who grew up here have been nursed on the importance of high schools and the friends they make then, that is totally influences their everyday lives. I do not think it is intended, but being an outsider (a transplanted Californian) I find people who did not grow up here to be much more friendly and welcoming. It is not intended but real nonetheless. It seems to color their judgement of potential changes. For instance FC comment about downtown the other day, and the greatest example was the opening of merto-link in 1990's many locals were telling me they doubt it would be a success..... within months it beat projected yearly passengers.

It seems difficult for people who grew up here went to school here and now work here to think outside the box, and view things without myopic vision. Most would say SLU has had a dissapointing season. We are expecting them to finish out the season poorly, and discounting the idea that if the go 6-0 or 5-1 they are a bubble team. This is the same mentality that thought the cardinal were not going to do much because they limped into the playoffs.......

[Tonka]

MissouriAlum - welcome to the board.

If you want to become a Billiken fan again then go to some games and follow them again for a season. While the recruiting isn't there, we have 2 exciting young players in KL and TL that are fun to watch and have both received A-10 awards. Luke Meyer is a local kid who leaves it all on the floor every night. I know you are familiar with these players, but if you want reasons to why you should be a Billiken fan again those guys are some of the reasons. As you know we have a new arena being built which will hopefully help our campaign for building this program.

I WARN you that coming to this message board and trying to convert to being a Billiken fan is a tough task as it would if I did the same on the Tiger Board. There are always individuals who will give you crap because of their own personal agendas and you have to realize they don't represent all of Billiken fans. In fact, they probably represent less than 1%.

You can definitely be an MU fan and a SLU fan and an Illini fan and a Salukis fan. Why not? Don't let anybody give you criteria why you couldn't. The teams play in 4 different conferences. Sure, if they play each other you'll ultimately side with one, but that's natural. There are die hards who believe your team is your team and they draw a line there. I like those fans too because I find that passion compelling in some ways.

MU lost me as a fan for a couple reasons but too much to type. Even when they lost me, I didn't wish them failure. I just didn't follow them too much. I like Mike Anderson a lot and wish them success and finding myself keeping an eye on them more.

If you get back in town and give me notice I'll even give you a good ticket to a game.

[boardfan]

MizzouAlum, You are right on. I grew up a big tiger fan and attended Mizzou. I started paying attention to SLU when spoon arrived. I loved Norm and supported the hiring of Q. The last 3 years under coach Q were so bad, I started paying more attention to the Bills. This season I purchased season tickets. I also love attending the MVC tourney. I am also a big Duke fan. I am just a huge college hoops fan. I see no reason everyone in STL shouldn't support Mizzou and SLU. The hatred toward the tigers on this board makes it easier for me when the Bills lose. I take some satisfaction in the fact that the likes of Roy, Skip and Rich are pissed off. Although I always root for SLU, the nuckle heads on this board won't allow me to be a true fan. I would love to see the bills win a national title, but I also would enjoy making fun of the clowns on this board during a winless season.

[boardfan]

Don't take Tonka up on his offer for a ticket. It is a trap. Skip and his brother will show up and beat you up. Or offer to buy you a beer then take advantage of you when you are drunk.

[Tonka]

Yes, he sits right by me and I think you'd find the the section and seat placement is a fun place to be. Skip's brother has been at two games that I remember this year and he seems like a heck of a nice guy.

I must have missed something at some point. I saw you write something similar before. Did Skip ever threaten you in some way or bring up his brother in some way? If he did I can't see it.

[slufanskip]

This guy is just an idiot, read his posts. I think his first post was calling me a racist or gay or something. I thought he should come by and have a beer ... but like almost every person who posts crap just to instigate trouble ... he's annonymous. I'm not even sure what his issue is. Maybe he was spurned by a guy named skip or something I don't know. This is something I've been curious about for awhile. What kind of life must a person live, to actually enjoy going on an internet message board and calling people names, all while remaining annonymous. It almost makes me feel sad for them.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

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[AlumniFan]

True story:

Yesterday, while in Kansas City at a hotel/indoor waterpark, I am standing in a line at a The Bear Claw Cafe AFTER the MU/KU game. The guy in front of me, mid-30s, has a Missouri windshirt on. I say to him in a very friendly way, "Tough game today, too bad Hannah got in foul trouble". He looks at me, looks at my SLU sweatshirt, and then says, verbatim: "at least we have a real program". Given my years of enduring this type of abuse from MU fans, I am not surprised, but what comes next is what I have learned is the general consensus from non-SLU, non-MU fans. The lady behind me who is wearing a KU sweatshirt and with whom I had been talking, comments after the guy pays and leaves, "typical, they have no respect for anyone". The guy behind her, who I later learn is from somewhere in Illinois around Springfield, basically concurs with the lady and starts telling his own stories about MU fans (obviously, he is an Illinois fan).

This is what I find over and over and over and over again. Maybe it is because the Missouri program has had so many years of unfulfilled expectations, maybe it is the Quin Snyder/Ricky Clemons debacle, maybe it has to do with the football program's issues over the years, maybe it is just my imagination, but it just seems to always be the case (see your comment: "I would think Mike Anderson will give SLU a shot when he gets his recruits in").

Even during the KU/MU game, you could clearly hear the MU students/fans chanting "######" during KU's free throws. I pray SLU never plays MU again as the last two times we played in SLU, I have had to deal with unpleasant, obnoxious, and often drunk MU fans, to be fair, typically younger kids.

I don't care if you root for SLU. I don't care what the casual fan thinks of SLU today, because if and when the SLU program begins winning consistenly, especially in their new arena, the fans will come. However, I get at least as irritated with MU fans as you apparently do with SLU fans. I have been putting up with the MU fans crap for 20+ years and I am accustom to it and generally ignore it, but when someone comes onto this board and lectures SLU fans on our behavior, I am not going to ignore it. You have every right to your opinion and I welcome your posts, but we also have the right of rebuttal which I am sure you will also respect.

That said, there are PLENTY of great MU fans who are immensely respectful and respect other programs, but it is my opinion, and apparently the opinion of quite a few others, that the general consensus of fans of schools that play MU find MU's fans more unpleasant and arrogant, on average, than the fans of other schools.

"A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands up for others." - Ben

[MissouriAlum]

I really appreciate all of the responses. This was really what I was looking for actually. I was hoping that this could be a good discussion point and not turn unpleasant.

I couldn't agree more that MU seems to have more than their share of extremely drunk, unpleasant fans. Like I'm not here to defend Snyder, Alden, etc, I'm not hear to defend them either. I'm not one of them, never have been, and don't ever plan to be. I've been left shaking my head many times at these "fans".

For whatever reason, it crossed the line to me to continually bash the educational integrity and morality of the school (Mike Alden excluded. Anyone can bash him as far as I'm concerned since he got us into this, in my humble opinion). It's probably not right for me to base my opinion of SLU based on only a small number of posters, but those posters were so overbearing and seemingly "knowledgeable" about other things that it was hard to look past. It's pretty easy to eliminate the people that just stir things up elsewhere, but here the line seemed a little blurred, especially on this topic since it seemed to be the consensus many times.

That being said, I came over here today to try and get past that because I can't see any reason why I shouldn't wish good things for SLU and I wanted to work through those issues a little bit. At least as long as I've followed them, SLU has always won games with hard-working, less-talented over-achieving guys (Larry Hughes and maybe a couple of other exceptions). All 4 coaches that they have had since I've followed them have been classy too. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I didn't want them to do well so I thought I'd bring the issue out here and see what happened. I think this is a good start. Like I said, I truly believe there are other MU fans that are in a similar position to me that would root for SLU pretty easily if it came to it. There just any reason for this to be a bitter rivalry at this point(at least until the teams start playing games annually and even then I'm not so sure).

Thanks again for all of the discussion.

[Basketbill]

nm

[AlumniFan]

For what it is worth, I like Mike Anderson and think that he can both turn the program around and set an example of how the entire program, including some of the unpleasant fans, should behave. This will make a big difference for me and my feelings towards MU.

"A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands up for others." - Ben

[TheA_Bomb]

I coined the phrase SPUMAC (Scandal Plagued University of Missouri at Columbia) and maybe Boone County Tech. I hate MU.

I hate MU for every idiot that went to SLU but still cheers for MU. I hate MU for every idiot in MO that thinks MU is big time without ever winning consistently or getting to a final four. I am not from Missouri and SPUMAC never crossed my mind prior to moving there. Just because you play KU or Illinois doesn't put you on the same level. I didn't develop this hate for SPUMAC until 1998 or so. I gave them a chance when I first went to SLU I even drove down to Columbia one night in 1997 after they beat KU to celebrate there thinking it would be great. It wasn't great. I don't like the campus, many of the students, or the atmosphere.

You can cheer for SLU if you want. SLU doesn't need you to be a fan of both. I really don't care, now that SLU and SPUMAC don't play anymore they don't cross my mind.

[thetorch]

Simply put Mizzou sucks.

SLU has always been the underdog in the area and probably always will be. I was brought up a Billiken fan but that aspect probably appeals most to me.

Mizzou is also an underdog yet their fans have the arrogance to believe they are favorites which apparently occurs in some other black and gold dimension.

The school is just ugly. Columbia is a cow town. SLU could field a co-ed touch football team that could beat the hapless tigers on the gridiron. Good vet school other than that the education value there is severely lacking. Nobody brags about the acedemics at Mizzou unless they are alumni.

Mizzou is the state school, has the most money, boosters, alumni, fans, yet continuelly whines and complain whenever the have nots in the state (SLU, MO State, SEMO) get any success or breaks. Similar to what you are doing here.

For some reason, despite Mizzou's overwhelming superiority over SLU a great number of fans enjoy coming to the lowly SLU message board and troll. I have no idea why this is?

Mizzou fans want peace and understanding? Ryan Robertson can't go to a Mcdonalds within 50 miles of Columbia without being cussed at, spit on etc. Maybe some of you need to look in the mirror.

Last thing. I know literacy is not a strong suit of Mizzou alums and fans but this board clearly states that it is a BILLIKEN BOARD. Tiger fans need not apply.

PS I kind of miss this Mizzou-SLU banter that we used to have on here. I guess it helps when SLU doesn't suck. Right now we can't muster up enough bravado to talk smack to the lowly valley much less our friends in Columbia.

[cheesycow]

Yeah just other day, true story, I watched a SLU fan eat a child and then asked Xavier, Marquette, and SMS fans what they thought, and their only response was, "typical."

[cheesycow]

"I coined the phrase SPUMAC (Scandal Plagued University of Missouri at Columbia) and maybe Boone County Tech. I hate MU."

both very clever.

"I hate MU for every idiot that went to SLU but still cheers for MU."

just like you hate cardinals fans who go to school in california?

"I hate MU for every idiot in MO that thinks MU is big time without ever winning consistently or getting to a final four."

Which is a category that SLU has us beat in, naturally.

"I am not from Missouri and SPUMAC never crossed my mind prior to moving there. Just because you play KU or Illinois doesn't put you on the same level."

No. But perhaps it does put us slightly above those who count Duquesne as a major conference opponent.

"I didn't develop this hate for SPUMAC until 1998 or so. I gave them a chance when I first went to SLU I even drove down to Columbia one night in 1997 after they beat KU to celebrate there thinking it would be great. It wasn't great. I don't like the campus, many of the students, or the atmosphere."

Yeah, I suppose drinking in overpriced apartment buildings (read: moolah and coronado) beats the atmosphere of a college town with a night life that stretches from business loop to stadium ave.

"You can cheer for SLU if you want. SLU doesn't need you to be a fan of both. I really don't care, now that SLU and SPUMAC don't play anymore they don't cross my mind."

they certainly seem to.

[cheesycow]

"Nobody brags about the acedemics at Mizzou unless they are alumni."

Mizzou Law: ranked 60th in the nation

SLU law: ranked 80th

Mizzou Medicine, primary care: 16th in the nation

SLU Medicine, primary care: outside the top 50 (ie. unranked?)

Mizzou Education: 39th in the nation

SLU Education: outside the top 50 (ie. unranked!)

And as far as undergrad goes, SLU and MU are essentially on a level playing field.

So go ahead and brag about your overpriced education, it's really suiting you well.

[MissouriAlum]

As this digresses, this was my point on that issue as well:

>And as far as undergrad goes, SLU and MU are essentially on

>a level playing field.

>

I don't think it's right to bash either school academically. If it's just a few isolated people doing this (as seems to be the case here), that's normal and really, I would hope Mods would deal with that (here and anywhere else) since it's not really doing anyone any good. It just seems to not be worth alienating potential and real fans of SLU (at least speaking for myself) since the majority of casual fans in St. Louis at least, probably will root for both.

Since this is one of the only places that people can read about SLU athletics, anyone with more than a passing interest will probably come here at some point. If they are met with constant animosity across the board, it's pretty easy to see how they could generalize that to the entire fanbase whether it's true or not.

[slu72]

Mizzery Alum Fan to bait Broy back to the board. Am sure he's at his laptop his fingers just burning to start tapping out the reasons to hate MU. It's got to be killing him. I think the hatred for MU can be summed up as follows:

1.) You won't play us every year.

2.) It was obvious Q was not playing by the rules long before the Ricky Clemons soap opera began, and no one wants to see a cheater win.

3.) Yes, you have the premiere program in Mo in terms of facilities, access to $$, conference...you're the Bully in the state. Everyone dislikes bullies. That said, you've got to admit, there hasn't been a lot to cheer against your program over the last 3 years, but Anderson will turn that around.

One other item: We actually self policed the board a lot during Q's last two years, saying what did it have to do with Billiken hoops. For the most part these days, one rarely starts a thread about MU hoops. Why, when we have our fair share of problems with our own. Maybe not the nature of MU's in the past, ie scandal, but the bottom line is, we ain't winning big either for whatever reasons and posters are getting impatient with Brad, which is the dominant topic for us these days.

[Box and Won]

Academics are a toss-up - there's no reason to compare one to the other as their overall rankings are very close. MU's a fine school.

[ACE]

>MizzouAlum, You are right on. I grew up a big tiger fan and

>attended Mizzou. I started paying attention to SLU when

>spoon arrived. I loved Norm and supported the hiring of Q.

>The last 3 years under coach Q were so bad, I started paying

>more attention to the Bills. This season I purchased season

>tickets. I also love attending the MVC tourney. I am also

>a big Duke fan. I am just a huge college hoops fan. I see

>no reason everyone in STL shouldn't support Mizzou and SLU.

>The hatred toward the tigers on this board makes it easier

>for me when the Bills lose. I take some satisfaction in the

>fact that the likes of Roy, Skip and Rich are pissed off.

>Although I always root for SLU, the nuckle heads on this

>board won't allow me to be a true fan. I would love to see

>the bills win a national title, but I also would enjoy

>making fun of the clowns on this board during a winless

>season.

You guys have been able to pi$$ off another Mizloser who is stalking you. Good job guys! Doesn't boardfan fight the exact same causes as Billiphan? Phan was so inept, I guess he had to call in reinforcements.

[Tonka]

you're back. did the MU internet alarm go off on your computer when you saw things were being typed about MU on the Billiken Board?

Actually, cheesy there were several times when I was ask other posters if they were you since I hadn't seen you in a while and thought maybe you came back under a different name again. I halted from doing that becaue while argumentative to the fullest degree, you seem a lot more educated than the poster's I thought were you. You weren't as malicious either. You still in Columbia or have you graduated?

[DirtyRican]

If I had my choice of any state school in the country to root for Mizzou would be one of my last choices.

Think about it:

Florida

Georgia

North Carolina

Alabama

Texas

Oklahoma

West Va.

Oregon

Washington

Cal

Arkansas

Missouri might be ahead of places like Wyoming or Idaho but not many more. There is nothing exciting about this big state school's athletic program.