majerus mojo Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Winning in a team sport is dependent on so many factors. I think the highest praise you can give any basketball player is "competitor". If you take McCall off those teams and replace him with Lisch, we would have won just as many games if not more. Does anybody here really doubt that? Can we replace Barnett with Lisch instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 So Manning is a winner right? Just want to be consistent in our logic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majerus mojo Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 So Manning is a winner right? Just want to be consistent in our logic No it helps if you're reasonable about the subject.. You have to actually contribute, also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 So you are saying a winner doesn't have to win? Lisch fulfills his potential, works hard, overachieves, that doesn't necessarily make him a winner. There is no problem with the definition of winning. Kevin Lisch won games, he didn't win titles at least not at SLU. Lisch might be a better player than Kwamain Mitchell or Jordair Jett but those two were winners. Lisch was not. There haven't been many true winners at SLU. Let's not tarnish their legacies by including others just because they were good or great players. That doesn't make you a winner even in a team sport. Lisch is probably in my top 5 favorite Billikens of all time and it disheartens me that I have to put him down in order to refute your ridiculous claim. I can't believe people are even arguing about this. What's the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I can't believe people are even arguing about this. What's the point? +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Kevin Lisch was one of the all-time great Billikens, and it's too bad he didn't play for a winner. Would that be a better way to state the opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Kevin Lisch was one of the all-time great Billikens, and it's too bad he didn't play for a winner. Would that be a better way to state the opinion? Exactly. As the poster who made the post about Kevin not being a "winner", I'm going to vote that we drop this. I didn't mean my post as a shot at Kevin although many seem to be taking it that way. It seems to be a personal preference about how you define "winner". No one on this board can argue that Kevin is among the all-time greats at SLU just as no one can argue that his SLU teams were winners. We've got these open practices to discuss, the Bahamas trip coming up, lots of interesting stuff happening with recruits, etc. Breaking down each poster's personal definition of "winner" is far less interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
For-DaLove Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 At the end of the day if you don't win you aren't one of the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SShoe Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 In other news, first game in the Bahamas will be tomorrow. Anybody on this board going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zink Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I'm also saying: do not underestimate a long term fan's blink when it comes to talent. But trust the coaching staff even more. I've also read a bunch of those books, including the thinking fast and slow; it's such fascinating stuff. I've found the concept of Blink very useful, however, as an introductory concept for the recent neuroscience; and by the way, you do not need to be a "professional" either, to have a very solid judgment. For instance, I'm a guitarist, not professionally, but for over 40 years. I can listen to about 20-30 seconds of a guitar player and have a pretty accurate sense of their level of playing ability. Sometimes it turns out to be wrong, but usually not. It's just Blink. My main point above was: of course we can have useful, legitimate judgments and analysis about these players, even after a single practice! You jump to the wrong conclusion: the observations of long-term amateurs is not pointless. By the way, the word "amateur" has a root in love: an amateur truly is a "lover" of some thing or activity, that is what the word means, so much so they do not need to be paid to pay attention to it, or participate in it. So yes, my point is simple: of course the judgments of long-term amateurs is not worthless. Read my original post, I think it was pretty clear about that. It was the other guy who claimed the opposite (even though he went on to contradict his own statement in the next paragraph) ... As for the math: the amount of hours, as Old Guy says, is just a number, and Gladwell has all sorts of other issues besides. He's a bit of a showboat, as well. But generally, I've definitely spent thousands and thousands of hours in, around, playing, and observing the game of basketball, amateur and MBM though I may be. Many others on here have as well. It adds up, just like my guitar playing, or whatever your hobby happens to be. You might be surprised about how many thousands of hours readers of this board have spent immersed in all things basketball, including this board, a forum for floating ideas and analysis and judgments. (the average American adult spends roughly 1000-2000 hours per year watching TV, for instance...something like 4-5 hours /day, on average). I can't express how much I love stirring up this board ! ! ! over and out; anyone else going tonight?? Good points on intuitive judgments, but when talking about expertise and MBMs, the Dunning-Kruger effect deserves a mention Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billikenbill Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 If they go 3-0, I predict a surefire NCAA bid. 2-1 and it's clear there are internal problems on the team. 1-2 and Crews should be fired on the spot and be forced to swim back to the mainland. 0-3 and shut down the program and avoid tall buildings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 If they go 3-0, I predict a surefire NCAA bid. 2-1 and it's clear there are internal problems on the team. 1-2 and Crews should be fired on the spot and be forced to swim back to the mainland. 0-3 and shut down the program and avoid tall buildings. Just hope they aren't playing and lose to Carleton because that would be a sign we are destined to stink ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted August 7, 2015 Author Share Posted August 7, 2015 If they go 3-0, I predict a surefire NCAA bid. 2-1 and it's clear there are internal problems on the team. 1-2 and Crews should be fired on the spot and be forced to swim back to the mainland. 0-3 and shut down the program and avoid tall buildings. The sad part is that this is very accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyjibo Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Just hope they aren't playing and lose to Carleton because that would be a sign we are destined to stink Murray State beat Carleton (their coach is taking of leave of absence for a year as well) already this year so it may be a down year for Carleton. They have Valpo, Baylor (twice) and Texas Tech coming up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billikenbill Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Ga. Tech thumped the Atlantis All-Stars Thursday night, 101-60. I think we have a chance to go 1-0!! Better put the clamps on their top scorer, Livingston Munnings, who lit up the Jackets for 24. Also, the North Florida Ospreys took down the Bahamas All-Stars 102-84. Sounds like these teams are equivalent to low d2, high d3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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