JC Hot Seat

[Pistol]

Pistol.

Are you not a little strong on your comments? What is a virtual unknown? Yes, we have no recruit/player who is well known like Tatum but come on.... Neufeld played on high profile teams and appears widely known in basketball circles. Welmer was recruited by others/us out of high school before going to prep school. Bishop earned praise and honor in NY City. And a local who was one of the local area's top scorers last year also should not be considered a virtual unknown. And regarding last year's Frosh, Roby seemed to start at the beginning of the season because of his defense and then turned into an all-around player. MB played very little early but then appeared to beat out the competition and earn the PG job half way thru the year while having many good games and parts of games. Malik appeared to play most of the minutes as the 4 last year, appeared to peak half way thru the year when he was a dominant force for us and then struggled down the stretch to make the necessary adjustments as other teams game planned against him. In short, can you not make your points to MB without trashing our recruits and players?

No, I'm not. My comments are reasonable. I even used (undeniable, very easy fo find) numbers to support my point(s) instead of just "we'll be fine!" blind optimism. Do I need to be more positive so as to not offend anyone's delicate sensibilities? I didn't think I was being very harsh in the first place. You have a seemingly low threshold for "trashing" - I'm rereading my post and don't see what I'd consider trashing. It's pretty simple. Last season was historically ugly and even if this season is marginally better, that's still ugly. Not exactly a revolutionary stance.

If you don't consider our recruiting classes to be comprised of relative unknowns, you don't follow recruiting. Not sure what else to say on that point. Maybe they'll be good, but I don't know, and skepticism by me or others is entirely justified.

[Billikenswin]

No, I'm not. My comments are reasonable. I even used (undeniable, very easy fo find) numbers to support my point(s) instead of just "we'll be fine!" blind optimism. Do I need to be more positive so as to not offend anyone's delicate sensibilities? I didn't think I was being very harsh in the first place. You have a seemingly low threshold for "trashing" - I'm rereading my post and don't see what I'd consider trashing. It's pretty simple. Last season was historically ugly and even if this season is marginally better, that's still ugly. Not exactly a revolutionary stance.

If you don't consider our recruiting classes to be comprised of relative unknowns, you don't follow recruiting. Not sure what else to say on that point. Maybe they'll be good, but I don't know, and skepticism by me or others is entirely justified.

"reasonable+ not very harsh" I would hate to see harsh.You have to give it a rest. You constant negativity is really really tiring. We know we had a bad year last year and we all--except for a few trolls--hope we have a better year this year. Why not be positive just for the sake of the team and the players who are working very hard to get better. We will still be very young but I am positive we will be a better more cohesive team. Whether that means a much better victory total remains to be seen. I would sure like to see this series of rants end!

[TheChosenOne]

"reasonable+ not very harsh" I would hate to see harsh.You have to give it a rest. You constant negativity is really really tiring. We know we had a bad year last year and we all--except for a few trolls--hope we have a better year this year. Why not be positive just for the sake of the team and the players who are working very hard to get better. We will still be very young but I am positive we will be a better more cohesive team. Whether that means a much better victory total remains to be seen. I would sure like to see this series of rants end!

Because this is a fan message board. I am sure if Pistol was having a conversation with a random client at work who asked how SLU basketball is doing he would give a more pleasant response. I know my conversations with casual SLU fans is much different than it is with my friends who are more passionate fans.

[MB73]

PISTOL:

"I couldn't disagree more about the level of talent between the Romar-Soderberg teams and this current roster. We have way less talent right now, and I don't think it's even close."

There are plenty more; so many of 'lil Pistol's cheap shot posts have trashed the team and the coach and still, he denies it, he hides behind the wording of one post.

Our six sophs are Crews only true recruits, they show a lot of promise. In their circumstance with no real SR or JR leadership it was impossible for them to thrive.

None of us know if they will succeed. Nor that they will not.

So smearing the coach and berating the team's talent over and over and over because of one "Perfect Storm" year is despicable for a so called Billiken fan.

[Billiken Rich]

Our six sophs are Crews only true recruits, they show a lot of promise. In their circumstance with no real SR or JR leadership it was impossible for them to thrive.

This

[Pistol]

"reasonable+ not very harsh" I would hate to see harsh.You have to give it a rest. You constant negativity is really really tiring. We know we had a bad year last year and we all--except for a few trolls--hope we have a better year this year. Why not be positive just for the sake of the team and the players who are working very hard to get better. We will still be very young but I am positive we will be a better more cohesive team. Whether that means a much better victory total remains to be seen. I would sure like to see this series of rants end!

I see the blind positivity as a sign of complacency. We won games in three straight NCAA Tournaments and followed it up with the worst season of SLU basketball I've seen in my lifetime. Did I expect to make the Tournament after losing all those seniors? No. But I have higher expectations for the ability of the coaching staff to bring in talent and have them perform at a competitive level. That's not unreasonable.

SLU basketball might not constantly be stuck in the mud if the fan base weren't so complacent and held the coaches and AD accountable. We're not going to get in the Big East with a mentality of "Everything is awesome!" despite all evidence to the contrary.

I consider myself more objective than negative, by the way. When the team looked great, I said so. When the team was bringing in talent, I shared my excitement. I want nothing more than for the program to be competitive and make the Big East. I want to be wrong when I say this season is going to be another bad one. But blind faith is unproductive.

[JMM28]

I love when people think that message boards have an effect towards the on court performance of the team.

I guess the teams' problem last year was too much negativity here. It definitely wasn't poor play, poor coaching, or poor recruiting. It was us being too gosh darned negative.

If we all just be positive, that is good for another 3 or 4 wins alone.

Pistol is 100% fair on his assessment. I think others who disagree are also 100% fair in their assessments. I think there has been some solid offseason discussion in this thread, until MB and the Chesterfoofoo crew come in riding their unicorn of positive thought.

[Pistol]

PISTOL:

"I couldn't disagree more about the level of talent between the Romar-Soderberg teams and this current roster. We have way less talent right now, and I don't think it's even close."

There are plenty more; so many of 'lil Pistol's cheap shot posts have trashed the team and the coach and still, he denies it, he hides behind the wording of one post.

Our six sophs are Crews only true recruits, they show a lot of promise. In their circumstance with no real SR or JR leadership it was impossible for them to thrive.

None of us know if they will succeed. Nor that they will not.

So smearing the coach and berating the team's talent over and over and over because of one "Perfect Storm" year is despicable for a so called Billiken fan.

"We shall see." Right?

I stand by the quote you bolded above, too. Memories are short. There was more talent on those teams. How on earth is that considered "trashing" this team and coach? The only thing I deny is that my observations are trashing anyone. Stating fact is not "trashing" anyone. It's not personal. I had no idea you were so foo-foo, sensitive, and PC. I guess I have to tone down my comments for you.

If you want something to be good, you shouldn't be satisfied when the people in power - the coaches, the AD - aren't doing their jobs in a way that will lead to success. This desire, and the fact that I'm not ashamed to share my disappointment, is not "despicable."

I couldn't have been the only one who observed the 2014-2015 dumpster fire. The excuse of youth only goes so far when other young teams are succeeding. I'm not asking for a National Championship on the backs of freshmen (though that is the current trend in the game); all I want is a program that can be sustainably successful.

You want to support failure, I do not. This is a fundamental gap I'm sure we won't bridge.

[slufanskip]

I see the blind positivity as a sign of complacency. We won games in three straight NCAA Tournaments and followed it up with the worst season of SLU basketball I've seen in my lifetime. Did I expect to make the Tournament after losing all those seniors? No. But I have higher expectations for the ability of the coaching staff to bring in talent and have them perform at a competitive level. That's not unreasonable.

SLU basketball might not constantly be stuck in the mud if the fan base weren't so complacent and held the coaches and AD accountable. We're not going to get in the Big East with a mentality of "Everything is awesome!" despite all evidence to the contrary.

I consider myself more objective than negative, by the way. When the team looked great, I said so. When the team was bringing in talent, I shared my excitement. I want nothing more than for the program to be competitive and make the Big East. I want to be wrong when I say this season is going to be another bad one. But blind faith is unproductive.

What difference does it make if you are complacent if you aren't in a position to change anything. I find the stance that fans need top demand more a bit laughable as the large majority of those fans have no ability to change anything. Always makes me wonder how exactly are you or anyone going to demand more? What action will you take and what change will it cause?

It seems to me there are a few different types of posters.

1. Overly positive. Believe everything is perfect regardless of the facts

2. Want to remain positive but realize things need to improve but willing to watch and enjoy.

3. Down on the team but hope they improve

4. Thing everything sucks and their is little to no chance for this season

I believe the majority of this board including myself is in category 2, with category 3 being next.

In the end though what is having a negative attitude going to change? Is anyone actually taking any action?

3.

[Pistol]

What difference does it make if you are complacent if you aren't in a position to change anything. I find the stance that fans need top demand more a bit laughable as the large majority of those fans have no ability to change anything. Always makes me wonder how exactly are you or anyone going to demand more? What action will you take and what change will it cause?

In the end though what is having a negative attitude going to change? Is anyone actually taking any action?

You're right, we have no real, direct power. JMM and you both make this point and are correct. The same way the rose-tinted glasses set can't use the power of The Secret to wish this team into winning, the negative nellies can't make personnel decisions.

However, to use a phrase from the OP, "hot seats" are created by fans who are tired of what's happening. I have said that I don't think Crews should've been fired after this past season (although a five-year contract was a mistake, but that's a different issue). But there have been troubling trends going back to the 2013-2014 season and this upcoming season should be a make-or-break one for him. SLU fans are historically pretty low-key and complacent. I'd want to see the heat get turned up on Crews if this season goes how I think it will. If enough of us express discontent, that won't go unnoticed.

There are posters (and plenty of people who don't read this board) who have not renewed their season tickets because of last season's unwatchability and this staff's unexciting recruiting. If enough people are doing that, that's a huge message. Voting with your wallet. So, yeah, some people are taking action.

To say fans have no power is not completely true for those two factors. If enough of us get tired of things, they'll know. If we have another atrocity of a season, what will all the blindly positive people here say? If the Big East expands without us, will we just shrug because we feel powerless?

If fans just keep lying there and taking it, it leads to things like multi-billion-dollar sports franchises to get taxpayer-funded stadiums without those taxpayers being allowed to vote on whether they want to pay for that or not, just to use one totally off-the-wall example.

[TheChosenOne]

There are posters (and plenty of people who don't read this board) who have not renewed their season tickets because of last season's unwatchability and this staff's unexciting recruiting. If enough people are doing that, that's a huge message. Voting with your wallet. So, yeah, some people are taking action.

When the athletic department called us asking why we weren't renewing my wife told them because the team is terrible and the girl on the phone laughed and said she would note that. That wasn't the entire reason (we were only renewing if Tatum committed), but I got a kick out of that. The tickets had been in her family for 30+ years, so I am sure if more families like that don't renew or stop going the athletic department will take notice. I know the people who sit in front of us also did not renew their tickets after having them for years. I am more on the fence than most on this board, but if things go poorly this season I think a move has to be made.

[waldo027]

You're right, we have no real, direct power. JMM and you both make this point and are correct. The same way the rose-tinted glasses set can't use the power of The Secret to wish this team into winning, the negative nellies can't make personnel decisions.

However, to use a phrase from the OP, "hot seats" are created by fans who are tired of what's happening. I have said that I don't think Crews should've been fired after this past season (although a five-year contract was a mistake, but that's a different issue). But there have been troubling trends going back to the 2013-2014 season and this upcoming season should be a make-or-break one for him. SLU fans are historically pretty low-key and complacent. I'd want to see the heat get turned up on Crews if this season goes how I think it will. If enough of us express discontent, that won't go unnoticed.

There are posters (and plenty of people who don't read this board) who have not renewed their season tickets because of last season's unwatchability and this staff's unexciting recruiting. If enough people are doing that, that's a huge message. Voting with your wallet. So, yeah, some people are taking action.

To say fans have no power is not completely true for those two factors. If enough of us get tired of things, they'll know. If we have another atrocity of a season, what will all the blindly positive people here say? If the Big East expands without us, will we just shrug because we feel powerless?

If fans just keep lying there and taking it, it leads to things like multi-billion-dollar sports franchises to get taxpayer-funded stadiums without those taxpayers being allowed to vote on whether they want to pay for that or not, just to use one totally off-the-wall example.

Yes, I will. What are average fans supposed to do to make the Big East invite SLU?

[slufanskip]

When the athletic department called us asking why we weren't renewing my wife told them because the team is terrible and the girl on the phone laughed and said she would note that. That wasn't the entire reason (we were only renewing if Tatum committed), but I got a kick out of that. The tickets had been in her family for 30+ years, so I am sure if more families like that don't renew or stop going the athletic department will take notice. I know the people who sit in front of us also did not renew their tickets after having them for years. I am more on the fence than most on this board, but if things go poorly this season I think a move has to be made.

I find that kind of sad. 30 years and 1 bad by all accounts a rebuilding year and they don't renew. After the best 3 year run in Billiken history. I'd like to say good riddance ... but clearly we need all the fans we can get

[slufanskip]

You're right, we have no real, direct power. JMM and you both make this point and are correct. The same way the rose-tinted glasses set can't use the power of The Secret to wish this team into winning, the negative nellies can't make personnel decisions.

However, to use a phrase from the OP, "hot seats" are created by fans who are tired of what's happening. I have said that I don't think Crews should've been fired after this past season (although a five-year contract was a mistake, but that's a different issue). But there have been troubling trends going back to the 2013-2014 season and this upcoming season should be a make-or-break one for him. SLU fans are historically pretty low-key and complacent. I'd want to see the heat get turned up on Crews if this season goes how I think it will. If enough of us express discontent, that won't go unnoticed.

There are posters (and plenty of people who don't read this board) who have not renewed their season tickets because of last season's unwatchability and this staff's unexciting recruiting. If enough people are doing that, that's a huge message. Voting with your wallet. So, yeah, some people are taking action.

To say fans have no power is not completely true for those two factors. If enough of us get tired of things, they'll know. If we have another atrocity of a season, what will all the blindly positive people here say? If the Big East expands without us, will we just shrug because we feel powerless?

If fans just keep lying there and taking it, it leads to things like multi-billion-dollar sports franchises to get taxpayer-funded stadiums without those taxpayers being allowed to vote on whether they want to pay for that or not, just to use one totally off-the-wall example.

I doubt our opinions of where the team is ... is that far off. I see a little more than you but we both believe big progress must be made. I just tend to see the upside ... it's just my nature. Every year I believe the Cards will win it all. I believe the US men's soccer team can make the final 8 next world cup ... Ram's will quit committing stupid penalties and make the playoffs this year ... etc ...

[ACE]

It's the 13-17 team I was referring to. Yes, even on 13-17 Big East teams, it's hard for skinny freshmen post players to get off the bench when there are more experienced players in front of them. I think Berry made a good decision to transfer to a good mid major team where he could play right away.

The "Big East" the season Berry played at Butler was NOT the Big East of old... in fact, no better than the A-10. IMO, it wouldn't have been difficult for a quality freshman to get off the bench for a team with a 150 rpi.

[slufan13]

I'd suggest all people stay away from the prediction thread this year. Could get ugly in March

[TheChosenOne]

I find that kind of sad. 30 years and 1 bad by all accounts a rebuilding year and they don't renew. After the best 3 year run in Billiken history. I'd like to say good riddance ... but clearly we need all the fans we can get

That is why I said it wasn't the entire reason. We are the one's paying for the tickets at this point, so it was our decision. There was a lot more to it, but the direction of the program certainly played a part. Why pay for something you don't go to or don't enjoy going to? I said before, the main driver was the we didn't go to many games last season and it makes more sense just to get tickets for a couple of a games a year. Still big fans (although fairly apathetic), just no longer season ticket holders.

[slufanskip]

That is why I said it wasn't the entire reason. We are the one's paying for the tickets at this point, so it was our decision. There was a lot more to it, but the direction of the program certainly played a part. Why pay for something you don't go to or don't enjoy going to? I said before, the main driver was the we didn't go to many games last season and it makes more sense just to get tickets for a couple of a games a year.

I get it went you don't go. I had them for 15 years and dropped because I could only make 7 to 8 games a year. I still don't know that I'd be considering the direction of the program to be bad after just 1 year though.

[TheChosenOne]

I get it went you don't go. I had them for 15 years and dropped because I could only make 7 to 8 games a year. I still don't know that I'd be considering the direction of the program to be bad after just 1 year though.

I was mainly saying if the team was still really good and we had Tatum committed, we may have renewed (would have been able to find takers for the tickets when we couldn't go which was a huge challenge last season). I personally don't see things going well for SLU with Crews at the helm, so that is why I said direction of the program (the team with Jett and Evans as seniors under performed and had significant holes which the numbers supported and last year was trash).

They were good seats (near Roy I believe), so paying a lot of money and missing considerable games was a waste of money. Where things stand with the program and personally, I didn't envision us making any more games this winter.

[kshoe]

I was mainly saying if the team was still really good and we had Tatum committed, we may have renewed. I personally don't see things going well for SLU with Crews at the helm, so that is why I said direction of the program (the team with Jett and Evans as seniors under performed and had significant holes which the numbers supported and last year was trash).

They were good seats (near Roy I believe), so paying a lot of money and missing considerable games was a waste of money.

Never thought I'd see the day when people say a Billikens team that finished the season ranked 25th, at one point was ranked in the top 10, won the conference regular season, got a 5 seed to the dance and lost in the round of 32 to the defending national champs was a year that we "under performed and had significant holes"

[TheChosenOne]

Never thought I'd see the day when people say a Billikens team that finished the season ranked 25th, at one point was ranked in the top 10, won the conference regular season, got a 5 seed to the dance and lost in the round of 32 to the defending national champs was a year that we "under performed and had significant holes"

Weren't a number of posters saying it during that season as well? I know my friends and I were doing a lot of complaining about Crews during that season. Pistol laid out the argument today too (an offensive ranking of 181st). The only potential change I could see making would be eliminating "significant". You can say things a way that make it sound crazy (for example the fact that we made the round of 32 was a joke), but that team under performed and had holes.

[slufanskip]

Never thought I'd see the day when people say a Billikens team that finished the season ranked 25th, at one point was ranked in the top 10, won the conference regular season, got a 5 seed to the dance and lost in the round of 32 to the defending national champs was a year that we "under performed and had significant holes"

Agree ... of course it had holes. There are no perfect teams, not even the Nat'l Champs ... however, it was one of the 2 or 3 best Billiken teams of the last 50+ years. Arguably the best

[slufanskip]

I was mainly saying if the team was still really good and we had Tatum committed, we may have renewed (would have been able to find takers for the tickets when we couldn't go which was a huge challenge last season). I personally don't see things going well for SLU with Crews at the helm, so that is why I said direction of the program (the team with Jett and Evans as seniors under performed and had significant holes which the numbers supported and last year was trash).

They were good seats (near Roy I believe), so paying a lot of money and missing considerable games was a waste of money. Where things stand with the program and personally, I didn't envision us making any more games this winter.

I get your point. Like I said, I dropped mine as I was paying $1200 or so a year for 7 or 8 games. The level of the team though ... for me had nothing to do with it. If I could have attended I would have good or bad.

[BillikensBlog]

FWIW, I (and the large majority of others I've spoken to) would rank the teams

1. 2011-12

2. 2012-13

3. 2013-14

Despite the overall records telling a different story. I could see an argument for 2012-13 being better than 11-12.

Anyway, that is off-topic.

I think I learned to restrain information a bit as the remark about how Crews handled players' roles last year caused a stir and attacking of posters.

That being said, I think a realistic goal for this coming season is 15 wins. Anything more and I would consider it a major success. I don't love predictions, especially this early, but I would throw out 13-17 as my guess for regular season.

[TheChosenOne]

Agree ... of course it had holes. There are no perfect teams, not even the Nat'l Champs ... however, it was one of the 2 or 3 best Billiken teams of the last 50+ years. Arguably the best

The numbers do not support that and anyone who watched that run of success would have to put that season in 3rd (so in theory I could be agreeing with you, just not the arguably the best part). I would probably go 2012 and 2013 being fairly close at 1 and 2 and 2014 in 3rd by a decent margin for that recent run of success (I was too young during the Highmark/Claggs/H days to really comment on them).