Schasz Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 According to this ESPN article, he projects as a Top 5 pick in the draft. For those of you that have seen him play (I haven't) how do you think he will do right out of the gate. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/stor...andy&id=1794820 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecCenterRat Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 I don't believe that he's going to log any minutes next year, unless the Charlotte Bobcats draft him. There was a discussion about how he is overrated on this board a couple months ago. I was able to watch his Illinois semi-final game. He actually seemed to disappear in it. His jumper is flat. He moves really smooth, but I don't think that he can take any NBA contact .. he's only 175 pounds! I think that Josh Smith and Dwight Howard are better prospects. Here is what NBADRAFT.NET says about Shaun: Give him 30 pounds and he can throw out all the hoards of recruiting mail that he's received. David Stern would swim up the Illinois River to personally grab this magician with a ball. He will not blow by you with blinding speed, but his basketball IQ is so high he can maneuver around defenders using his wonderful sleight of hand, deft changes in speed and long and fluid strides. A wonderful athlete he can crash the boards wonderfully from the guard spot. With his great vertical leap and long arms, he will ****** rebounds out of midair only to glide up the court, flowing through defenders to eventually lay the ball into the hands of a teammate for an easy bucket after he's looked off the any defenders. He still needs the aforementioned added size to his slender frame, which is expected to come with time. His outside jump shot is erratic at times and sometimes he is too unselfish to a fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Sometimes these kids listen to the wrong set of advisors, and Shaun is a classic example. I have seen him play since 5th grade, and there was no question that he was NBA bound before he set foot in high school. That being said, Shaun has avoided some of the hard work and discipline which would serve him well. He transferred from Richwoods to Central after his sophomore year. He would have done it after freshman year, but McClain and some other good advisers talked him out of it. He does not like to work at all in the weight room, and some of this transfers out to the floor. He has yet to get into a 500 jump shot a practice routine, and he has not illustrated the dedication to effort that makes and breaks NBA players. He is a phenominal talent. I have compared him to Larry Hughes, but he is a year behind Larry as far as being a scorer, and six months behind physically. Coming out straight from high school actually will put him two years behind as a scorer. Shaun will get crucified physically in the NBA for three years, just as Larry did until he welded on the extra muscle mass. Mentally, Shaun will really get beat up. He will be drafted at #4 or #5, going to a deep loser. PG is the hardest position to learn OJT in the NBA, and talent only flies you thirty games into an 80 game NBA season. The remaining 50 games are about physical and mental toughness while getting dogged by a coaching staff, home fans, and opposing point guards that were shaving before Shaun reached puberty. It will not be a fun time for four years for him. After that, if he has no serious injuries like Penny had, he will dominate. Coming out of the Green/Harrison projects in Peoria, it is extremely difficult to pass up the multi-million dollar three year contract with guaranteed money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 i will go out on the limb and say that livingston will be a star. he has that god given ability to see things in slow motion while he plays at full speed. i have seen him play 5x and i think he is marvelous. i agree he is skinny, but he makes up for that with his court awareness and savy. he is a natural leader and not afraid to step up and do whatever is needed to win. imo, he resembles a young magic johnson. i have never compared anyone to magic before. magic is somewhat hallowed ground imo. while he may take a year or two to get settled in, he will be a player. a big key is who he gets stuck with. he needs to go to an organization that can develop him. and one preferably with a superior head coach. dont rule out a move by the lakers that could afford to let him develop at his own speed and take the spotlight off of him while he does. in fact, the lakers is the perfect place for him to go. the two best laker drafts ever were arguably magic and kobe. neither were supposed to be their pick but they worked deals to get in position to take them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Nothing wrong with being skinny. Even after the weight work, Larry Hughes is still skinny. The problem with Livingston is that he is physically weak. He is going to get pounded until his does something about it. A physically strong college point like Jarrett Jack would have abused Livingston next year. I shudder at what Jason Kidd and Baron Davis are going to do to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Livingston will have a career course similar to McGrady. He will benchwarm for a couple years and then be able to break out. I can't make any judgements on mental makeup because he is still a kid. The next two years in the league will determine what kind of man and player he will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 where i hold out hope that livingston will be different is that unlike mcgrady or kobe or any of just about every other recently joined nba member, is that livingston appears to not want to be the next michael. he is all about the team and feeding his teamates opportunities. i had held out hope that james might be more that way, but he seems to have fallen into the next jordan trap as well. it amazes me that even though it is well documented the greatest days of the nba were the 80's and fueled by super team first players like bird and magic, the nba controllers see the need to find the individual stars instead. why is that so hard to see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 I disagree. In recent years, the NBA went out of its way to hype Stockton and Malone, neither of whom are me-first guys. These days a lot of the NBA hype is invested in Duncan and Kidd, both of whom are also consumate team players. It is also difficult to criticize the NBA for marketing Shaq, Kobe, and James, when the former have consistently won championships and the latter has shown great pose and personality. I would also bet that a little research would show that the financial and popularity glory days of the NBA were during the Jordan years. Has there been a stretch in any sport that was as flooded with individual marketing as the Jordan years in the NBA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 I can't imagine what LA would have to give up to move up to a top 5 pick or maybe even higher ... what if they got the 4 pick to get him and he was picked 3rd. In the NBA there is a huge difference between 5 and 25. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Roy, the limb you are going out on is about five feet thick. :-) No question Shaun will be a star, but like Larry, it will be his physical development, and the supporting team makeup, that will dictate how he does. Unfortunately for him, two thirds off the teams in the NBA are roadkill, amd he will undoubtably end up on one of them. With Shaun physically being unable to consistently finish at the basket in HIGH SCHOOL while being fouled, the NBA will be a jump for him. He will lose ten pounds in the first month of the season, and he will be an all-world star sitting on the bench 35 minutes a game after being told by the wrong crowd in Peoria he will start and star anywhere he goes. What will make it worse is it will all happen on a real bad team. Frank Williams chewed him up a couple months back on a visit back to P-town, and Frank can't even get starter minutes consistently for New York. Frank's sister chewed him out for not eating and working out like a horse, and also for not shooting 300 15 footers a practice to create a go-to offensive shot. There aren't many people in the Peoria bball scene who like to sugarcoat matters, as you might have figured out by now... At least Shaun will be growing up and eating well while earning a couple mil a year, something we should all experience for a couple years before we retire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 all good points. i can tell you that charles love told me that the workouts the suns put justin on for a month before the summer league games started were intense. they also had a dietician and trainer working on him non-stop. now if they do that for a free agent rookie that eventually got cut, what do you think they will demand and do for a first round pick? it will be a little different than some aau coach that wants to crawl up shaun's caboose to get on the later in time gravy train that tells him what he wants to hear instead of what he needs to hear. while frankie was a good player, at the high school level he wasnt near what shaun is now. and frankie williams was pretty darn good in high school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 the 5 games i saw shaun livingston play over the last two years, he had no trouble "finishing" in the games i saw. he may have not tried to finish plays, but i walked away thinking he could pretty much do what he wanted whenever he wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Guards who are over 6'6 and can create their own shot are indefensible in high school. Unless you have TMac or Kobe level-athleticism, that isn't the case in the NBA. Again, Livingston better get a lot stronger or he will get eaten up in the League. Big-time point guards in the NBA have to be able to score as well as pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Roy, in high school Anthony Jones was the star player for Vashon. Anthony Bonner carried his lunchpail for most of the four seasons. Chris Sloan was unstoppable. Reality is judgements made on high school players are difficult when 90% of the kids either have talent, or are physical specimens. An outstanding team will have two Div. 1 high level players. State champions in large classes will have three Div. 1 players. Rare was the team that had someone who could match up against Livingston. In the MidState 6, Notre Dame had Matt Gilfinan, who shut Shaun down three years ago, and made Shaun ride the bench in foul trouble two years ago. Gilfinan is very similar to Drejaj, and is on schollie to Sienna. Brian Randle(Illinois) was the starting center and faced off against Faulkner. Good games, but Richwoods had four more basketball players, while Notre Dame had a swimmer and two football players filling out their starting five. At Central after the transfer, Shaun also had Eddie Ruffin and Lee as two other dominant guards. As expected, Central won state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 .... in the making, what is Sebastian Telfair doing? At least you guys have Livingstone at 6'7" (a nice size PG for the pros but unstoppable as a PG in high school) But Telfair is like just around 6 feet. Lots of guys can eat his lunch in the league. What is the thinking there? Wonder what Slick Rick is doing at UofL now? Lots of guys go pro .... I remember a kid named Reece Gaines at Louisville. Another named DeJuan Wagner at Memphis. Even a Larry Hughes at SLU (altho the broy might disagree). I also remember Chris Crawford at Marquette ... who'd thunk that. This now takes Deng and Livingstone out at Puke along with Duhon. Do you cry for Coach K? Bottom line for me .... much like "muck fizzou" you can do the same for the NBA. They will never see my money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SluSignGuy Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Anyone think that this will impact the Duke game. Unless I am mistaken, Livingston was going to Duke, and the SLU game may have been part of the deal... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Steve, the Duke game had nothing to do with Shaun enrolling or playing for them. It could have been a possibility if they were playing in St. Louis or Chicago, but noone will travel from Peoria to Carolina for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 I know you don't watch alot of NBA roy so I have to disagree with you on LeBron and McGrady. Both are team first guys. They just play on teams with no talent besides them. McGrady got a bad rap this eyar because he was so outspoken about his teammates, but he has never played on a team as bad as that one. He has to do everything for the Majic and that grind gets to him. Both of those guys if given some decent personal can flirt with 8-10 assists a game. I won't argue about Kobe. He is going to have a rude awakening when he signs with some terrible team. Being the only good player who has to take all the shots is alot different from being a great player with great teammates who has to assert himself to get his numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 i am not saying he will have the success of lebron immediately. if you reread my "out on the limb post", i wrote, "while he may take a year or two to get settled in, he will be a player." go look at kobe's stats his first season. averaged only 7 pts per game and just over 1 rebound. tracy mcgrady averaged about the same his first season. even garnett only averaged 10 pts a game his first season. there will be a "break in" period. what james did this season is unheard of. and i dont expect livingston to do that. but like i said, if he goes to a team that can afford to bring him along slowly and actually develop his skills, look out. besides heart and guts, the second best attribute on the basketball court, especially for a point guard, is floor presense and vision. and i think livingston has it big time. like i said before, it is like he sees the game in slow motion while getting to play at full speed. come back and talk in june of 2007. let's see what is being said then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 taj, hughes has the 19th highest scoring average in the league this year. if he is such a bust, what does that say for the other 387 players on the rosters? where you been? good to have you back tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SluSignGuy Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 I just thought that if it would have been a 1 for 1, it was something with Shawn getting to come back to StL. Kind of like why Arizona played us the past two years. I was just wondering how much his going to the NBA could affect the Duke game. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billikens_Fanatic Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 You can't call a guy a bust after one year. First, you have to give him credit for actually staying 4 years. Also, he's drafted by the Magic. Can you expect him to get much playing time with McGrady on the team? Not too many first year players make an immediate impact. The LeBrons and the Carmelos are rare. I say give him a few more years before making a judgment on his NBA career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 .... about Telfair, Slick Rick and Coach K. My personal opinion is that someone that gets drafted (and there are only two rounds now) should be one to at least contribute to a degree that makes him a real player on the team. The problem will be the subjective way everyone differentiates in what "contribute" means. To me, Gaines contributed nothing. But you are right ... I'll give him time ... and credit for the four years. I get Hughes on the local channel here so I see him a lot. Granted, if he is as broy says, somewhere up there in average, great for him. His track record as to what his team's have done is spotty at best. I guess you can blame that on his supporting cast but maybe not totally. So throw those out and come up with names like Dooling, Magette, Bender, and some others. What really irks me is that they get their 3 mill for three years and for what? That's why I won't bother to see them play ... let alone pay for it. I've been on the road broy ... this makes three weeks out of three as I am in Oregon today. Before that it was Colorado and Indiana the week before that. I read this all the time however .... I just don't pose to post because I have nothing to add. For example, I was going to hollar at '72 for always posting something about freakin' you-know-who but decided against it as it was incindiary at best. Now that I'm here, I'll do it. Otherwise, I enter this page two-three times a day and jsut read. I'm always here ....... SBL .... Silent But Lurking. Lisch is great news. Here's hoping Tommie holds to his principals and reups in November. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenButch Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 It is also why we got KU to come here a few years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Telfair is very strong for his size and is a good shooter. T.J. Ford isn't a good shooter and he had a decent rookie year. Telfair has a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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