Couple of Notes

[willie]

I try to avoid these type of discussions because they have trolls like anklebreakers just lying about things and then people debate the lies. Willie got a fair shake and a full second chance after he did a lot of things that were questionable. The school has always taken the high road. To suggest that Willie was not offered and given tutoring help is absolutely ridiculous. We have great academic support folks and if the players cooperate and participate they will get a lot of help.

If you know that he was getting help this semester I will shut up. I sked that question earlier and did not get an answer.

[slu72]

To be honest, my point really isn't to say that SLU should make things easier. It has been recently documented that Stanford makes it easier on its athletes, but I would assume that SLU does as well. The difference is, Stanford gets its players through. I assume that SLU does not have enough tutoring and assistance in place to help its athletes. In particular, if one player is very important to your school, then get him round the clock tutoring, make the teachers come to him. Think outside the box, and don't simply say that he should go to class. If a player does not have the academics required to survive, then find a way to get him declared learning disabled, so that you can get him extra attention. Invest time and especially money in that players education.

Prove to me that this already happens or that it cannot be allowed due to NCAA regulations.

I just read in AARP magazine, yes, I'm a member, about Kansas hiring retired folks to escort individual athletes to classes. That's one escort for one athlete. One of the escorts interviewed said they're required to be there for as long as the player's daily class schedule dictates. I would hope SLU will never have to start a babysitters for athletes program.

[Bobby Metzinger]

I just read in AARP magazine, yes, I'm a member, about Kansas hiring retired folks to escort individual athletes to classes. That's one escort for one athlete. One of the escorts interviewed said they're required to be there for as long as the player's daily class schedule dictates. I would hope SLU will never have to start a babysitters for athletes program.

I posted a link about that three months ago. They are also a state school and have the budget to do this. Plus, it's so nice to make old people feel important.

[billiken_roy]

He was allowed back because he was a basketball player. He was not paying his own tuition.

you know that he wasnt responsible for tuition and was definitely on a basketball scholarship and not some sort of student grant when he was reinstated?

i say that because i do not recall reading anywhere he had his basketball scholarship back. i do recall reading he was not reinstated to the basketball team.

which i then assumed he didnt have a basketball scholarship back yet at that point and had to re-enroll as a student at large and had to make his own tuition arrangements made via loans, grants or cash out of pocket or a combination thereof.

[slu72]

you know that he wasnt responsible for tuition and was definitely on a basketball scholarship and not some sort of student grant when he was reinstated?

i say that because i do not recall reading anywhere he had his basketball scholarship back. i do recall reading he was not reinstated to the basketball team.

which i then assumed he didnt have a basketball scholarship back yet at that point and had to re-enroll as a student at large and had to make his own tuition arrangements made via loans, grants or cash out of pocket or a combination thereof.

I'm convinced that WR came back to SLU for two reasons: 1.) If he made up the work and cleaned up his act, SLU offered him the quickest return to D1 hoops. 2.) That KSU said, "hey, you've got some major academic problems and we can't admit you unless you bust your hump and make up some credit hours." No doubt #2 flies in the face of what most BCS schools typically do in these cases, ie online correspondence courses that earn you instant coffee credit hours.

[willie]

you know that he wasnt responsible for tuition and was definitely on a basketball scholarship and not some sort of student grant when he was reinstated?

i say that because i do not recall reading anywhere he had his basketball scholarship back. i do recall reading he was not reinstated to the basketball team.

which i then assumed he didnt have a basketball scholarship back yet at that point and had to re-enroll as a student at large and had to make his own tuition arrangements made via loans, grants or cash out of pocket or a combination thereof.

I would be shocked if the athletic department did not pay his tuition.

[Pistol]

Theft, academic dishonesty, etc, etc...

If a mod wants to delete this, that's fine, I completely understand. But Ive gotten tired of all the people who defend all the bull**** Willie did in his time here when they really don't know what happened.

If only Willie knew he could graduate in three years without ever (literally, ever) having to read a book: Kemba Walker.

[Tonka]

SLU is always ranked high in terms of average GPA and often leads the A10. SLU takes pride in that and RM has ALWAYS said his players are students first and he looks out for their academics. I would bet Chris May would be willing to share the kind of resources that are available to athletes for academics as SLU takes GREAT pride in that. Heck, with the great students on the men's basketball team, I bet the tutors don't get used all that much. WR might have had a number of them at his resource if he chose to use them.

[For-DaLove]

If only Willie knew he could graduate in three years without ever (literally, ever) having to read a book: Kemba Walker.

Ha.

That's really a good example of why no one should fail to stay eligible. They have all the extra help they could possibly want. Plus, they take summer classes every summer. So you really have to screw around to get yourself ineligible.

[tourist]

I have no Sympathy for WR when it comes down to not achieving the grades required , he was given a second chance by SLU that not many other students would have received for the indiscretions that he committed.

He had a whole semester to concentrate on achieving the grades without interruptions eg: team training ,playing and being away from classes during away games which could be up to 2-3 days at a time.

Being a above average player should no give any player the right of a easy ride through their schooling,

Escorts to class is the biggest piece of s#$t i have heard in a long time, these young men must take responsibility into their own hands because im sure as hell when these young men enter the real world they will not have a minder getting them out of bed and taking them to work every day and escorting them back home. They all will not make a living playing ball !!.That is reality.

They have been given a great opportunity to get a great education that many people cannot afford because they are good at a sport, which is great for both parties, with a solid team on the floor that performs well the school can make a good income from ticket sales merchandise etc but the player/s must live up to their end of the bargain and perform in the class by achieving the grades require to stay eligible.

Its basically a contract that is implemented every day at any job face , we will pay you X amount (scholarship) if you perform the duties you were hired for efficiently and without incident(grades & court performance) or you will be terminated . Basic every day life you are told all this before you sign a contract (scholy agreement).

[Band Legend]

I think that if anyone had been listening to Rickma over Willie's first two years they wouldn't be surprised at his academic failure. I remember many occasions when the coach made comments about Willie's need to commit to the effort that it would take to progress on the court, but more importantly in the classroom. I know the man rambles alot, but he will give more honest answers and less bullcrap to the public than any coach alive. I'm looking forward to the next couple of years and don't believe the sky is falling. I wish to God we still had Willie but we will have some size on our team next year.

[BACKHANDtheRICAN]

Anyone who blames SLU for Willie's academic problems needs to re-evaluate the situation. The administration gave him ever chance possible to succeed. People never want to mention the fact that he attended 5 high schools, and probably didnt learn very much at them.

+1

[BACKHANDtheRICAN]

Theft, academic dishonesty, etc, etc...

If a mod wants to delete this, that's fine, I completely understand. But Ive gotten tired of all the people who defend all the bull**** Willie did in his time here when they really don't know what happened.

Howamy times did he get caught cheating ??

[BACKHANDtheRICAN]

I just read in AARP magazine, yes, I'm a member, about Kansas hiring retired folks to escort individual athletes to classes. That's one escort for one athlete. One of the escorts interviewed said they're required to be there for as long as the player's daily class schedule dictates. I would hope SLU will never have to start a babysitters for athletes program.

Slu had to escort Willie to classes

[TRN]

Sorry to all that think SLU "failed" Willie Reed. It sounds to me like he flat out failed as a college student.

I don't care whether or not he had tutors this past year or semester. He was given more opportunities as a STUDENT at SLU in his 1st two years than any other student would have seen. According to multiple sources, this did not prevent him from putting his academic standing in peril prior to any other incidents.

If Willie had any type of study habits or intentions he could have been a 'C' student at SLU prior to his suspension taking classes available. If he couldn't do that after his suspension, he doesn't belong at SLU or any other University. Pursuing basketball as a career is his best option.

[For-DaLove]

Howamy times did he get caught cheating ??

More than once on each of the things I mentioned.

[cheeseman]

To be honest, my point really isn't to say that SLU should make things easier. It has been recently documented that Stanford makes it easier on its athletes, but I would assume that SLU does as well. The difference is, Stanford gets its players through. I assume that SLU does not have enough tutoring and assistance in place to help its athletes. In particular, if one player is very important to your school, then get him round the clock tutoring, make the teachers come to him. Think outside the box, and don't simply say that he should go to class. If a player does not have the academics required to survive, then find a way to get him declared learning disabled, so that you can get him extra attention. Invest time and especially money in that players education.

Prove to me that this already happens or that it cannot be allowed due to NCAA regulations.

You make an assertion that is not based on any facts - the truth is SLU has been complimented by players and others for all the help they do provide. The school routinely wins academic team honors so something right is happening. Where the problem comes with an individual player is if they do not have the "will" to do the work that is necessary for the help to be of success. Unlike some schools such as MO - remember the player who flunked out of SLU and transferred there with no problems getting in, stayed eligible for 3 years but never graduated - we just are not able to let a kid skate by (see Motoy's post above for explanation).

[cheeseman]

Amen! Amen! Willie is not a dog that was merely being trained to jump on command, he is a human being with hopefully a long life ahead of him. He and all student athletes have a responsibility to themselves to take advantage of the opportunity to get a good education and a great university so that they can live long and productive lives in a very tough society!

Did not Willie himself tweet that " college was just not for him"

[cheeseman]

Everybody talks about his body of work. What was his body of work? I would like to know what those crimes were. Students do stupit ######. If I hire a good salesman and he,s good at sales but screws up in his personal life I need to help him get through his problem. Give him help to succeed not probation. Unless someone tells me elsewise we gave him probation without help.

If you hire a good salesman and he gets arrested for drunk driving more than once and looses his license and can not drive to sell or service his accounts are you going to hire a driver and car for him? I doubt it! Now if this happens and he says my wife or girlfriend or brother or mom or dad or somebody I will hire will drive me then you can probably make the case to ignore the problem.

[cheeseman]

you know that he wasnt responsible for tuition and was definitely on a basketball scholarship and not some sort of student grant when he was reinstated?

i say that because i do not recall reading anywhere he had his basketball scholarship back. i do recall reading he was not reinstated to the basketball team.

which i then assumed he didnt have a basketball scholarship back yet at that point and had to re-enroll as a student at large and had to make his own tuition arrangements made via loans, grants or cash out of pocket or a combination thereof.

Not sure if he was on schollie or not but you are making an assumption that may not have been true. Just because you are not reinstated to the basketball team does not mean you loose your schollie. Lots of players are suspended from the team but are able to stay in school on some kind of a schollie set up or free tuition.

[cheeseman]

If only Willie knew he could graduate in three years without ever (literally, ever) having to read a book: Kemba Walker.

Gee whiz - what a terrible article.

[Clock_Tower]

Sorry to all that think SLU "failed" Willie Reed. It sounds to me like he flat out failed as a college student.

I don't care whether or not he had tutors this past year or semester. He was given more opportunities as a STUDENT at SLU in his 1st two years than any other student would have seen. According to multiple sources, this did not prevent him from putting his academic standing in peril prior to any other incidents.

If Willie had any type of study habits or intentions he could have been a 'C' student at SLU prior to his suspension taking classes available. If he couldn't do that after his suspension, he doesn't belong at SLU or any other University. Pursuing basketball as a career is his best option.

Well I do care about the tutors. To me, these are separate issues.

First, WR failed himself, his teammates, his coaches and his school. Shame but not that shocking when you look at his failures at the high school level. Leaving a good school, and I believe not so good in the classroom, for an unsanctioned basketball team/school which then got totally busted for the sham it was. WR and his Dad demonstrated that academics were not a priority at all. WR = complete failure. Sad.

Second, SLU has an obligation (whether required by the NCAA or not) to provide an academic tutor to any kid they bring into their university with the academic background of WR. We all will agree that if WR didn't play basketball, he would not have set foot on SLU's campus or anyone else's campus. In short, WR (as a student) did not belong on SLU's campus. Then again, many D1 scholar athletes do not belong on college campuses. SLU is no different in this regard than other schools. My point is that if SLU (like the other schools) is going to bring in a kid like WR to benefit from his basketball skills, then IMO SLU has an obligation to provide him with a tutor whether he trains with the team or not. If SLU did not provide WR with a tutor, then IMO this is another example of SLU being cheap or of SLU not protecting their investment. To meet quotas, to fulfill a schools mission, to assist the underpriviledged..., kids are brought to school when their prior academic track does not warrant it. When this happens, the failure rates would seem to very high unless tutors and other assistance are provided.

[billiken_roy]

Second, SLU has an obligation (whether required by the NCAA or not) to provide an academic tutor to any kid they bring into their university with the academic background of WR. We all will agree that if WR didn't play basketball, he would not have set foot on SLU's campus or anyone else's campus. In short, WR (as a student) did not belong on SLU's campus. Then again, many D1 scholar athletes do not belong on college campuses. SLU is no different in this regard than other schools. My point is that if SLU (like the other schools) is going to bring in a kid like WR to benefit from his basketball skills, then IMO SLU has an obligation to provide him with a tutor whether he trains with the team or not. If SLU did not provide WR with a tutor, then IMO this is another example of SLU being cheap or of SLU not protecting their investment. To meet quotas, to fulfill a schools mission, to assist the underpriviledged..., kids are brought to school when their prior academic track does not warrant it. When this happens, the failure rates would seem to very high unless tutors and other assistance are provided.

clock, for the kid just coming to slu or any other program that provides an athletic scholarship, i agree that the school should provide the tools to enable that student athlete to complete his or her education. especially considering the trade off of the exposure that athletic program provides the school and the hours needed to be a division one athlete practicing, training and competing. it is a full time job to be a division one athlete.

that all said, willie reed was provided that assistance initially. imo, that assistance though is conditioned on the athlete doing their part. and "their part" imo is far more than being a soccer player, or a basketball player or whatever sport their are scholarshipped to the university. that assistance is conditioned on also being a good citizen and ambassador for the university and most importantly giving the effort to be a all they can be student.

when willie messed up with his multiple instances of not being a good citizen and student, he lost that benefit and was expelled from saint louis university. he was reinstated and apparently on the condition he demonstrate he could be that good citizen and student on his own behalf. had he buckled down and did his part for one semester, it all would have come back to him upon being reinstated to the basketball team. he apparently didnt have the guts to do that.

last, i ask this question. even if he wasnt "provided" the school sponsored tutor, how many of us had friends, frat bros, etc that would have gladly spent time helping a fellow student? willie had no one that would help him. really? he asked friends for help and no one would help him? his only hope was slu to step in and help? b.s. i say this kid basically assumed that like his whole life because he was a phenom athlete someone would bail him out again. when no one did, he left. sad.

[Clock_Tower]

clock, for the kid just coming to slu or any other program that provides an athletic scholarship, i agree that the school should provide the tools to enable that student athlete to complete his or her education. especially considering the trade off of the exposure that athletic program provides the school and the hours needed to be a division one athlete practicing, training and competing. it is a full time job to be a division one athlete.

that all said, willie reed was provided that assistance initially. imo, that assistance though is conditioned on the athlete doing their part. and "their part" imo is far more than being a soccer player, or a basketball player or whatever sport their are scholarshipped to the university. that assistance is conditioned on also being a good citizen and ambassador for the university and most importantly giving the effort to be a all they can be student.

when willie messed up with his multiple instances of not being a good citizen and student, he lost that benefit and was expelled from saint louis university. he was reinstated and apparently on the condition he demonstrate he could be that good citizen and student on his own behalf. had he buckled down and did his part for one semester, it all would have come back to him upon being reinstated to the basketball team. he apparently didnt have the guts to do that.

last, i ask this question. even if he wasnt "provided" the school sponsored tutor, how many of us had friends, frat bros, etc that would have gladly spent time helping a fellow student? willie had no one that would help him. really? he asked friends for help and no one would help him? his only hope was slu to step in and help? b.s. i say this kid basically assumed that like his whole life because he was a phenom athlete someone would bail him out again. when no one did, he left. sad.

Totally agree that WR must have had friends and others he could have turned to. Totally agree that WR messed this up himself. Totally agree that WR's academic downward spiral started years before setting foot on SLU's campus. IMO, though, basketball privileges (practicing w/ team, sitting on the team bench during games...) should have been withdrawn but I would still allow tutors and weight training. The kid is an athelete first and a student a far distant second. If school tutors were, in fact, withdrawn, then I suggest -- why bother? WR had bad grades and study skills before SLU, academically he did not belong at SLU or any college, he failed miserably at school while playing for SLU for 2 years with the benefit of tutors, etc., he was then suspended from the team (presumably after many warnings)... How can a kid like this - who failed miserably and wasted all the chances given him - then succeed without tutors and academic assistance? I sure hope SLU would not have withheld tutors!! If so, SLU condemned him to failure. We talk about increasing budgets, not being cheap... suspension of tutoring based upon principle? I sure hope SLU didn't do this.

[billiken_roy]

clock said,

"IMO, though, basketball privileges (practicing w/ team, sitting on the team bench during games...) should have been withdrawn but I would still allow tutors and weight training. The kid is an athelete first and a student a far distant second. If school tutors were, in fact, withdrawn, then I suggest -- why bother? WR had bad grades and study skills before SLU, academically he did not belong at SLU or any college, he failed miserably at school while playing for SLU for 2 years with the benefit of tutors, etc., he was then suspended from the team (presumably after many warnings)... How can a kid like this - who failed miserably and wasted all the chances given him - then succeed without tutors and academic assistance? I sure hope SLU would not have withheld tutors!! If so, SLU condemned him to failure. We talk about increasing budgets, not being cheap... suspension of tutoring based upon principle? I sure hope SLU didn't do this."

commenting in reverse:

1. i do not believe for a second the no tutor thing was budget motivated. those tutors are out there and will get assigned regardless. i.e. money already spent.

2. i agree he failed miserably. my take is he had failed to the point, it was a matter slu had pretty much had it with him and it was at the point where it was indeed all on willie. sure that seems like an almost impossible success opportunity, but considering the number of opportunities and chances he had already been given, it was appropriate imo.

3. they (slu) probably bothered out of respect to the fans, to rickma, to the billikens, to willie. "ok, one last chance. but this time it is ALL on you willie."

4. i like to believe that saint louis university never becomes a school that allows, "athlete first and a student a far distant second". maybe that was the problem. willie reed should have never been a billiken.